'23 OH DE Brenan Vernon (Notre Dame Signee)

[Luckylucci]

I don’t know if it was just me but I thought Freeman made it sound like, in his ESD presser, that Vernon is an End.

As noted above, I think as his weight started to climb, most just assumed he was moving inside. Would be huge if he could play Big End long term.

 

[BobbyMac]

Short arms, small hands and wasn't he 6-6 at some point?

 

[Domina Nostra]

500 pound squat 😳
300 pound bench 🤨

I know bench is overrated but someone get my man some creatinine

If you are saying that this is shockingly bad, then it’s completely overrated. The punter benched more than Manti Teo when he was at ND. Fuller benched more than Boykin.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Short arms, small hands and wasn't he 6-6 at some point?

Longer arms than Joey Bosa.

The tallest I recall seeing him listed was 6'5.

 

[notredomer23]

If you are saying that this is shockingly bad, then it’s completely overrated. The punter benched more than Manti Teo when he was at ND. Fuller benched more than Boykin.

For sure. Bench really doesn’t matter at all, and his squat is quite good which is far more important. Just when you see a player with a squat like that, I would have expected his bench to to be more because usually indicates they’re a gym rat.

Really I’m just knit picking

 

[WilliamWallace]

For sure. Bench really doesn’t matter at all, and his squat is quite good which is far more important. Just when you see a player with a squat like that, I would have expected his bench to to be more because usually indicates they’re a gym rat.

Really I’m just knit picking

Maybe that’s true in a squatting competition, but I’d have to argue that you need a significant amount of upper body strength to shed blocks by overly large OL. How much? Idk? But it should be complementary, a balance I guess.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Maybe that’s true in a squatting competition, but I’d have to argue that you need a significant amount of upper body strength to shed blocks by overly large OL. How much? Idk? But it should be complementary, a balance I guess.

Right, but (1) there is a reason they judge you by reps of 225, rather than your max and (2) he’s not even a freshman yet and he’s benching 300.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

Bench matters a lot for lineman.

 

[CanadalovesND]

Bench matters a lot for lineman.

Yes and no. Some of the top benchers at the NFL combine had miniscule NFL careers.

There needs to be a good base of functional strength and power, but it will always come down to technique, hands & feet.

I'd argue squat is much more important for DL. And deadlift for OL.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

For defensive linemen, I would want to know incline and shoulders. And even then, its less about weight and more about power.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Nothing on a football field is done with a barbell in your hands or on your back. Strength is easy to develop. I’d worry more about his velocity numbers. Then fill in the gaps.

 

[dublinirish]

i see his development curve at ND being similar to Gabe Rubio's. A total rebuild of his body required.

 

[Southside Sully]

Reading his Q&A kid seems way older than a high school senior. I'm hoping he has a solid career, seems like a very unique kid.

 

[dublinirish]

Reading his Q&A kid seems way older than a high school senior. I'm hoping he has a solid career, seems like a very unique kid.

dont remember a ND player with that many earrings alright

 

[Wild Bill]

dont remember a ND player with that many earrings alright

All hoops and no danglers smh.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Not a lot of insight here as to power production in football play. There is need for commentary by a real weight-training (for athletics) expert.
I am not that person, but my brother is, as several of you have looked up, the weightlifting coach of the United States Olympic weight Lifting Team. He has occasionally tried to educate me about this. I am not a good student of his, but Tim's message to me has been: Football is played on one's feet. To exercise power, that power must begin where the feet meet the ground and radiate upwards from there without losing power as it translates through the various joint connectors and improper angles of movement. The large muscle groups generate more power than do the small ones. One aspect of this is that one should not expect to stop a mass of power by utilizing a "punch" which derives only from one's chest. "A mere benchpress punch will not stop a diesel." The real lineman's power comes up the entire core muscle strength of the body only at the very end delivered by the hands. The great Dance and Punchers like ZMart do NOT rely on a mere benchpresser's thrust, but that ZMart Punch comes after a foot settling that grounds the whole body corps and the power rolls from the ground to the hands in rhythm with least power loss (uncoordinated body angles and movement inefficiency.) This is often called having heavy hands.

This optimal power generation is created by great discipline and repetition of the key movements. The whole body must work as a unit and not as separate parts. Exercises done on one's feet and involving whole body coordination and core power development are far more valuable for both power production and explosive speed than other types.

I've gone on too long with my poorly learned awarenesses given me by my brother, which doubtless has errors here and there. I believe that I've written something close to the jist. A better coach should come and clarify, but one conclusion is "give me a good Squat number everytime more than a benchpress." ... in fact give me almost ANY good core building exercise more than a benchpress.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This optimal power generation is created by great discipline and repetition of the key movements. The whole body must work as a unit and not as separate parts. Exercises done on one's feet and involving whole body coordination and core power development are far more valuable for both power production and explosive speed than other types.

The Olympic lifts (cleans and snatches especially) seem to be most relevant to OL power, since they’re performed on your feet and closely mimic the kinetic chain they to have utilize on the field.

Since the bench press is performed on your back with a much shorter kinetic chain, it’s not a good proxy for what a OL actually does.

I wonder why the combine doesn’t incorporate Olympic lifts for linemen?

 

[Wild Bill]

The Olympic lifts (cleans and snatches especially) seem to be most relevant to OL power, since they’re performed on your feet and closely mimic the kinetic chain they to have utilize on the field.

Since the bench press is performed on your back with a much shorter kinetic chain, it’s not a good proxy for what a OL actually does.

I wonder why the combine doesn’t incorporate Olympic lifts for linemen?

IMO, cleans/clean & press are the best lifts you can do for any position. I can't thing of a single guy I played with that could clean well and wasn't powerful/explosive on the field relative to competition.

Years ago it was rare, if ever, football S&C programs incorporated clean and jerk and I've never seen snatches. Snatches are difficult to teach and easy to get injured if you don't have great form and understand your limitations.

Risk of injury, imo, is why they don't do any of these lifts at the combine. Nobody would do them even if they tested.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I agree on the safety issue. Lifting competitions are dangerous since form is so important. Cleans, deadlifts, and squats can all lead to long-term injuries—especially when people are pushing themselves. It does not translate well to the cattle market atmosphere of the combine.

On the other hand, repping out with 225, while not a perfect test of functional strength, does give you a general sense of how practically strong someone is.

And in the end, they have a lot of film of the player to see how it translates on the field.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

IMO, cleans/clean & press are the best lifts you can do for any position. I can't thing of a single guy I played with that could clean well and wasn't powerful/explosive on the field relative to competition.

Years ago it was rare, if ever, football S&C programs incorporated clean and jerk and I've never seen snatches. Snatches are difficult to teach and easy to get injured if you don't have great form and understand your limitations.

Risk of injury, imo, is why they don't do any of these lifts at the combine. Nobody would do them even if they tested.

The snatch is not hard to teach and it wouldn't have to max'd. It could be repped at lower weight like bp and sq. It's a great exercise for developing/demonstrating power. Squat/Bench aren't in the same ball park.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Brother Tim has advocated the Olympic style training for all the sports for some decades. Occasionally an S&C tries it --- there is a LOT of traditional inertia fighting this. The lifts require better coaching and, of course, disciplined spotting, but the rewards are big. He seriously advocates the heavy squatting to the training, due to the core strength it encourages and the explosive power it creates.

... and there is a helluva lot more to it than just showing up and doing sets on a couple of lift types. He, by the way, doesn't get much in the way of injuries as long as people are disciplined at the total program ... but I agree, combine workouts don't fit the advanced level workout discipline level probably needed for this. What I think MIGHT be possible would be if HS athletes EARLY on understood that SCOUTS were impressed with certain of these non-bench numbers, got well-trained (and empowered) and showed THAT off to recruiters when the occasions allowed. (whether most other recruits could do the lift or not (ex. snatch.) (Snatches are indicative of not only strength but quickness AND FLEXIBILITY.)

 

[Wild Bill]

The snatch is not hard to teach and it wouldn't have to max'd. It could be repped at lower weight like bp and sq. It's a great exercise for developing/demonstrating power. Squat/Bench aren't in the same ball park.

Yeah it's easy to snatch the bar

 

[GrangerIrish24]

Yeah it's easy to snatch the bar

Ive worked with many high school and collegiate athletes. One of the biggest time killers for these kids is teaching them how to properly do Olympic lifts CORRECTLY. As a coach you already don't have much time to work with these athletes and it takes many hours to teach them how to safely do a clean/snatch . There is better carryover given the amount of time you have with plyo, med ball throws, and proper strength training.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

This debate has been around forever. The Olympic lifts are called that because there’s a whole sport dedicated to them. Look around on YouTube and see how proficient most are at performing them. It’s not pretty. Am I against partial variants? Not at all. Bottom line is you can get the same adaptation with jumps, throws, sprints, sleds, and dynamic effort variants. I speak from experience on this topic, but whatever. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind on their dogma.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

This debate has been around forever. The Olympic lifts are called that because there’s a whole sport dedicated to them. Look around on YouTube and see how proficient most are at performing them. It’s not pretty. Am I against partial variants? Not at all. Bottom line is you can get the same adaptation with jumps, throws, sprints, sleds, and dynamic effort variants. I speak from experience on this topic, but whatever. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind on their dogma.

Ive spent more time teaching kids how to simply land correctly coming off a jump or even bodyweight squat then most other things

 

[Domina Nostra]

IMO, I think the time thing is an essential element too. That's because the biggest problem with the complex lifts is the stubborn insistence that all body types can and should lift the same way. “Ass to the grass!”

Now let’s all acknowledge some guys are just stronger than others, even though they appear to be built the exact same way. That’s just life and not what I’m talking about.

The argument often gets sidetracked when it is reduced to tall vs short, but that is not the issue at all. Exaggerating obviously, but Zach Martin basically has the same proportions as Audric Estime, which is why he is paid millions of dollars to block in the NFL!!! Tall and wide may obviously be more advantageous than short and skinny.

It’s really about alll kinds of things like bone thickness, body proportions, joint angles, etc. Its related to why high jumpers jump off one foot, while thicker guys tend to dunk off two.

For example, when a guy has very short legs and a long torso, his spine doesn’t have to bend as much when he is back squatting—and glutes engage more naturally. When a guy has long legs and short torso, he either has to lean forward or bring his knees way out over his feet to keep from tipping over (pure physics). All of this so he can get below parallel, which (as I understand the history) is a somewhat arbitrary finishing point chosen to ensure an objective “complete” lift for lifting competitions. Forcing that guy to crank out reps like a more ideal body type is questionable, IMHO.

It’s the rare football coach who has enough time or resources to teach the right way to lift for each kid, which ends up favoring certain body types over others (see Brendan Vernon’s strength being questioned ).

 

[CanadalovesND]

Notre Dame Day 1 Wrap: All-American Bowl Check-In Initial Impressions

"Defensive lineman Brenan Vernon came in a 6-4.5, 259 pounds with 33.5 inch arms and 9.5 inch hands"

 

[Wild Bill]

Ive worked with many high school and collegiate athletes. One of the biggest time killers for these kids is teaching them how to properly do Olympic lifts CORRECTLY. As a coach you already don't have much time to work with these athletes and it takes many hours to teach them how to safely do a clean/snatch . There is better carryover given the amount of time you have with plyo, med ball throws, and proper strength training.

Exactly. There isn't enough time to teach a hundred guys how to snatch properly, especially when half of them have the attention span of a goldfish.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

IMO, I think the time thing is an essential element too. That's because the biggest problem with the complex lifts is the stubborn insistence that all body types can and should lift the same way. “Ass to the grass!”

Now let’s all acknowledge some guys are just stronger than others, even though they appear to be built the exact same way. That’s just life and not what I’m talking about.

The argument often gets sidetracked when it is reduced to tall vs short, but that is not the issue at all. Exaggerating obviously, but Zach Martin basically has the same proportions as Audric Estime, which is why he is paid millions of dollars to block in the NFL!!! Tall and wide may obviously be more advantageous than short and skinny.

It’s really about alll kinds of things like bone thickness, body proportions, joint angles, etc. Its related to why high jumpers jump off one foot, while thicker guys tend to dunk off two.

For example, when a guy has very short legs and a long torso, his spine doesn’t have to bend as much when he is back squatting—and glutes engage more naturally. When a guy has long legs and short torso, he either has to lean forward or bring his knees way out over his feet to keep from tipping over (pure physics). All of this so he can get below parallel, which (as I understand the history) is a somewhat arbitrary finishing point chosen to ensure an objective “complete” lift for lifting competitions. Forcing that guy to crank out reps like a more ideal body type is questionable, IMHO.

It’s the rare football coach who has enough time or resources to teach the right way to lift for each kid, which ends up favoring certain body types over others (see Brendan Vernon’s strength being questioned ).

They are actually required to, by rule.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Exactly. There isn't enough time to teach a hundred guys how to snatch properly, especially when half of them have the attention span of a goldfish.

And they become a danger to anyone within 20 feet if they pull the bar behind them.