Another Shooting

[TorontoGold]

I'm in agreement with Chris Hayes. And yes, masks are damaging.

Amen I agree with him and you.

 

[irishff1014]

Amen I agree with him and you.

I agree too. Since the shooter is normally a student of former student that now the drills and the procedures.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

We got kids shooting outside of schools for 12 minutes and unlocked doors. A miserable response from law enforcement and people are crying about background checks like that was the problem. This response was dreadfully inadequate.

Agree with the premise but I think both topics can be front and center. Had the database been up-to-date, I don't believe this kid would've passed a background check in the first place. He's had multiple run-ins with police along with multiple other Red Flag warnings that should've been sufficient enough to prohibit his purchases. We can talk about mental health issues, fatherless homes, etc, but the problem is that because of the 2A and due process, the Right calls for a full-stop when it comes to discussing what we could change to help decrease gun violence if it pertains to any idea that would make it less easy to get a firearm, circumstances be damned. I'm sorry, but there is no reason whatsoever that we can't force a 30-day waiting period on all gun purchases in order to fully vet the customer. 99% of people would have no issue fulfilling their purchase requests, but if we can stop the 1%, then maybe that has a marginal effect on gun violence in general in this country. These discussions should be had....along with how to better protect schools, why the LE response was so bad, why was the school unlocked to the public, why some officers got their kids out but did little to nothing else to help others....we can go on and on and I think everything should be on the table for discussion.

 

[GATTACA!]

Those are all important statistics, yes. The point you have missed is that these issues are not only things experienced in the US. As I have shown prior, these all are parts of peer countries that have the same risk factors present.

You want my proposed solutions? Better social programs to assist those in poverty, access to affordable health care (not just mental health, if your teeth are falling out...likely not going to have a lot of confidence), having children think they are in a prison is likely not conducive to good mental health, obviously better gun control regulations but we all know that's a fairy tale.

The irony of the same posters advocating that a piece of cloth on a child's face will cause irreputable harm but teaching them that it's normal to learn about being shot at school is a-ok for the psyche. So pro-life that a hobby takes precedence to people's lives. COD cosplayers didn't actually do their job, and yet more people want to give them fancy expensive guns. It's all a joke. Yolo, I guess the solution is arming more people so that conflicts are resolved with shootouts in parking lots. I have never been able to understand it, since I was a kid seeing billboards for buying rifles but none for cigarettes or XXX videos never made sense. Should have thrown those into a 1700's document to protect them.

Decriminalize most drugs too. Prison isn’t a deterrent for people that are desperate to get high. Instead of locking people away let’s try and actually give them the help they need. How many people, particularly men, are locked away for possessing weed? Leaving fatherless children and perpetuating the same problems.

 

[GATTACA!]

Agree with the premise but I think both topics can be front and center. Had the database been up-to-date, I don't believe this kid would've passed a background check in the first place. He's had multiple run-ins with police along with multiple other Red Flag warnings that should've been sufficient enough to prohibit his purchases. We can talk about mental health issues, fatherless homes, etc, but the problem is that because of the 2A and due process, the Right calls for a full-stop when it comes to discussing what we could change to help decrease gun violence if it pertains to any idea that would make it less easy to get a firearm, circumstances be damned. I'm sorry, but there is no reason whatsoever that we can't force a 30-day waiting period on all gun purchases in order to fully vet the customer. 99% of people would have no issue fulfilling their purchase requests, but if we can stop the 1%, then maybe that has a marginal effect on gun violence in general in this country. These discussions should be had....along with how to better protect schools, why the LE response was so bad, why was the school unlocked to the public, why some officers got their kids out but did little to nothing else to help others....we can go on and on and I think everything should be on the table for discussion.

I bought a gun towards the beginning of the pandemic. I was absolutely floored by how quick and easy the process was. I’m of sound mind (outside of Saturday afternoons in the fall), but it’s terrifying to think that the process is that easy for everyone else too.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Decriminalize most drugs too. Prison isn’t a deterrent for people that are desperate to get high. Instead of locking people away let’s try and actually give them the help they need. How many people, particularly men, are locked away for possessing weed? Leaving fatherless children and perpetuating the same problems.

I am actually
all for this. I think I read awhile back that 80% of all crime is somehow drug related.

 

[RDU Irish]

I'm in agreement with Chris Hayes. And yes, masks are damaging.

A number of years ago the music teacher ran her own lockdown drill - put the whole 3rd grade class in her storage closet and yelled outside the door "bang bang!" and some other crap screaming at them to be quiet. Told them not to sit next to the door because it would shatter and hurt them worse if it was hit by a bullet. The idiot principal backed her up saying it could have been done better but her heart was in the right place and it is a serious issue.

I was also demonized for suggesting the retired military staff have weapons locked in their desks or offices - why not have regular training and coordination in most schools with staff that will be the first on the scene? Safe in their office with a weapon or two - ready to roll in 60 seconds and 99.9% of the time locked away with zero risk to anyone. Run your drills on the weekends with local PD - keep the kids out of it. They would never even know it was there. Pay those people an extra $10k/year and you can have half a dozen on staff at the same or less cost of the SRO.

 

[TorontoGold]

Decriminalize most drugs too. Prison isn’t a deterrent for people that are desperate to get high. Instead of locking people away let’s try and actually give them the help they need. How many people, particularly men, are locked away for possessing weed? Leaving fatherless children and perpetuating the same problems.

100% it's 2022, having kids without parents because some guy is selling skunk weed is heinous.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Big difference between decriminalizing "most drugs" and decriminalizing weed.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am actually
all for this. I think I read awhile back that 80% of all crime is somehow drug related.

I agree too. However as a thought: we have gotten to a point where hard drugs are more normalized and accepted... I think to the detriment of things like trying to improve mental health and lessen violence. I think honestly this is just a huge mess and no simple fix like 'take all guns' or 'bring back daddy' is going to fix it. We need a full enema and we will all object to aspects of it. Just my honest feelings.

 

[GowerND11]

Big difference between decriminalizing "most drugs" and decriminalizing weed.

Legalize weed and decriminalize other drugs. Someone doing heroine shouldn't be thrown in jail, they should be given comprehensive help and care. The Portugal Model is exactly what we should look into doing with hard drugs.

 

[Riddickulous]

Would be stunned if there wasn't a federal investigation of the police response given all of the details coming out today.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Ughhhh

At 11:33 p.m., Ramos entered the school through a rear door that had been propped open and fired more than 100 rounds into a pair of classrooms, McCraw said.

Official: Girl told 911 'send the police now' as cops waited

Students trapped inside a classroom with a gunman repeatedly called 911 during this week’s attack on a Texas elementary school, including one who pleaded, “Please send the police now,” as officers wai...

www.yahoo.com

 

[ACamp1900]

I agree too. However as a thought: we have gotten to a point where hard drugs are more normalized and accepted... I think to the detriment of things like trying to improve mental health and lessen violence. I think honestly this is just a huge mess and no simple fix like 'take all guns' or 'bring back daddy' is going to fix it. We need a full enema and we will all object to aspects of it. Just my honest feelings.

Another component,… it was asked what changed since the 90s earlier in the thread. Talk about the elephant in the room in terms of societal decay and mental health. It’s so big and so obvious but so ever present that we no longer see it and,… dawned in the 90s. Again, just food for thought on the possibilities on what’s holistically going on

 

[IrishLax]

Exasperating... cops chilling outside while children call 911 and beg for someone to come help them.

 

[GATTACA!]

Exasperating... cops chilling outside while children call 911 and beg for someone to come help them.

Yeah but if the cops went in they could have been shot.

 

[ACamp1900]

Un-freakin-real

 

[Sea Turtle]

Another component,… it was asked what changed since the 90s earlier in the thread. Talk about the elephant in the room in terms of societal decay and mental health. It’s so big and so obvious but so ever present that we no longer see it and,… dawned in the 90s. Again, just food for thought on the possibilities on what’s holistically

Societal decay is right. It's how Rome fell. It's how we will as well. We are already headed for another civil war I'm afraid.

 

[drayer54]

Looks more like a police problem than a gun problem.

Exasperating... cops chilling outside while children call 911 and beg for someone to come help them.

Also, this transfer is a felony with UBCs.

Off-duty CBP agent borrowed shotgun, rushed into school to save daughter, wife, dozens of kids

An off-duty U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent grabbed his barber’s shotgun and sprinted into the Robb Elemental School in Uvalde, Texas school

americanmilitarynews.com

 

[ulukinatme]

I 100% believe the police should have done more, but at the same time I ask myself "Who wants to be a cop today?" A few bad apples in the headlines and now "ACAB" is the slogan and they all get drug through the mud. Calls to defund police and shut down precincts rather than bolster them with training, supplies, and help. Ask yourself what career in the US is more demonized today when most are good people just trying to do their jobs. It's no wonder more police today die from suicide than getting shot or getting into wrecks. It's a sorry situation, I absolutely couldn't and wouldn't do the job today under the circumstances.

I do think most officers would have pressed in to save the kids sooner, so maybe there's a leadership problem in that particular precinct. At the very least someone should probably have to step down after what happened. Some poor decisions were made based on what little we know.

 

[Blazers46]

Those are all important statistics, yes. The point you have missed is that these issues are not only things experienced in the US. As I have shown prior, these all are parts of peer countries that have the same risk factors present.

You want my proposed solutions? Better social programs to assist those in poverty, access to affordable health care (not just mental health, if your teeth are falling out...likely not going to have a lot of confidence), having children think they are in a prison is likely not conducive to good mental health, obviously better gun control regulations but we all know that's a fairy tale.

The irony of the same posters advocating that a piece of cloth on a child's face will cause irreputable harm but teaching them that it's normal to learn about being shot at school is a-ok for the psyche. So pro-life that a hobby takes precedence to people's lives. COD cosplayers didn't actually do their job, and yet more people want to give them fancy expensive guns. It's all a joke. Yolo, I guess the solution is arming more people so that conflicts are resolved with shootouts in parking lots. I have never been able to understand it, since I was a kid seeing billboards for buying rifles but none for cigarettes or XXX videos never made sense. Should have thrown those into a 1700's document to protect them.

I see your point and I get what you are trying to do. You are missing something critical in the conversation. Comparing the US with its "peers" might seem like a good argument on the surface but we are vastly different. Not sure if you have been to these other peer countries but the people and culture are different. Not sure if you have been from one state to the next even in the United States but people and culture are different.

I think we need to clarify the argument and what we are even arguing about. Lets clearly define things. Nobody cares when 25 kids are gunned down in a random inner city but we send thoughts and prayers and argue about guns and school safety if those same 25 were shot inside of a school. I think the term "school shooting" needs some context as well. Are we talking about every time a gun is shot at a school or even on school grounds or are we talking about the Sandy Hooks and Columbines? A lot of these high numbers of school shootings were isolated incidents of one person trying to shoot just one other. Not saying those should be dismissed but lets be real... the vast majority are dismissed because its seen as an isolated incident involving some sort of conflict between two people or two gangs or just some random guy shooting another guy but they happened to be on school grounds. Most of these "school shootings" are dismissed just like the vast majority of shootings in our inner cities.... because a lot of "school shootings" happen to be in inner cities...

There was a graph I posted on Wednesday showing a huge number of school shootings every year and jump in the last 5-6 years... I think the graph was wrong or misleading counting mass shootings not school shootings.

Probably the most accurate number for school shootings this year is around 27. According to "Education Week" Uvalde was the 27th. The prior 26 seemed to be inner city altercations or accidental and some were not even during traditional school hours. What is even more shocking is of the 27 shootings, none of the shooters appear to be white.

Here is a list of the 27 school shootings that have taken place this year

Tuesday’s massacre at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, that left 19 children and two teachers dead has rattled the nation and reignited calls for lawmakers to take action on gun reform. …

thehill.com

Here is another list from the reliable wikipedia on mass shootings THIS YEAR you probably never heard about. The majority of these "mass shootings" also seem to be a lot inner city violence. Gas station shooting, night club shootings (just last month it looks like 15 people were shot at a Dallas night club), Car shows (26 people shot at a car show in Arkansas), parades (10 shot in Louisiana parade), parties (16 people shot at party in Missouri), hoka bar (13 shot after hoka bar argument) gang fights (12 shot, 6 killed in CA shooting bloods v crips).

List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think when we all think mass shooting or school shootings we all seem to probably think the shooter was a young white male white supremacist or a young mentally unstable kid that just needed more hugs... myself included... we then get into the gun debate. Click on the links, these mass shootings and school shootings are not what we all think they are. A lot of them are bad guys shooting at other bad guys we simply so not hear about.

I googled "mass shooter characteristics", this video was the first to pop up... where are they getting all the these numbers? The media seem to be painting a different picture than reality or just have drastically different definitions.



Then there is this article that paints a picture about mass shooters that does not seem to fit the links above... but then again they have a different definition of mass shooting, they define a mass shooting as a shooting as:

"a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms—not including the offender(s)—within one event, and at least some of the murders occurred in a public location or locations in close geographical proximity (e.g., a workplace, school, restaurant, or other public settings), and the murders are not attributable to any other underlying criminal activity or commonplace circumstance (armed robbery, criminal competition, insurance fraud, argument, or romantic triangle).” 10 people could be shot in a gang shooting but if only 3 died it would not fit the definition.

LE takeaways from the largest database of life histories of U.S. mass shooters

Researchers say being part of a set of available and long-term resources to preempt active shooters is far more important than annual active shooter drills

www.police1.com

 

[TorontoGold]

I see your point and I get what you are trying to do. You are missing something critical in the conversation. Comparing the US with its "peers" might seem like a good argument on the surface but we are vastly different. Not sure if you have been to these other peer countries but the people and culture are different. Not sure if you have been from one state to the next even in the United States but people and culture are different.

I think we need to clarify the argument and what we are even arguing about. Lets clearly define things. Nobody cares when 25 kids are gunned down in a random inner city but we send thoughts and prayers and argue about guns and school safety if those same 25 were shot inside of a school. I think the term "school shooting" needs some context as well. Are we talking about every time a gun is shot at a school or even on school grounds or are we talking about the Sandy Hooks and Columbines? A lot of these high numbers of school shootings were isolated incidents of one person trying to shoot just one other. Not saying those should be dismissed but lets be real... the vast majority are dismissed because its seen as an isolated incident involving some sort of conflict between two people or two gangs or just some random guy shooting another guy but they happened to be on school grounds. Most of these "school shootings" are dismissed just like the vast majority of shootings in our inner cities.... because a lot of "school shootings" happen to be in inner cities...

There was a graph I posted on Wednesday showing a huge number of school shootings every year and jump in the last 5-6 years... I think the graph was wrong or misleading counting mass shootings not school shootings.

Probably the most accurate number for school shootings this year is around 27. According to "Education Week" Uvalde was the 27th. The prior 26 seemed to be inner city altercations or accidental and some were not even during traditional school hours. What is even more shocking is of the 27 shootings, none of the shooters appear to be white.

Here is a list of the 27 school shootings that have taken place this year

Tuesday’s massacre at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, that left 19 children and two teachers dead has rattled the nation and reignited calls for lawmakers to take action on gun reform. …

thehill.com

Here is another list from the reliable wikipedia on mass shootings THIS YEAR you probably never heard about. The majority of these "mass shootings" also seem to be a lot inner city violence. Gas station shooting, night club shootings (just last month it looks like 15 people were shot at a Dallas night club), Car shows (26 people shot at a car show in Arkansas), parades (10 shot in Louisiana parade), parties (16 people shot at party in Missouri), hoka bar (13 shot after hoka bar argument) gang fights (12 shot, 6 killed in CA shooting bloods v crips).

List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think when we all think mass shooting or school shootings we all seem to probably think the shooter was a young white male white supremacist or a young mentally unstable kid that just needed more hugs... myself included... we then get into the gun debate. Click on the links, these mass shootings and school shootings are not what we all think they are. A lot of them are bad guys shooting at other bad guys we simply so not hear about.

I googled "mass shooter characteristics", this video was the first to pop up... where are they getting all the these numbers? The media seem to be painting a different picture than reality or just have drastically different definitions.



Then there is this article that paints a picture about mass shooters that does not seem to fit the links above... but then again they have a different definition of mass shooting, they define a mass shooting as a shooting as:

"a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms—not including the offender(s)—within one event, and at least some of the murders occurred in a public location or locations in close geographical proximity (e.g., a workplace, school, restaurant, or other public settings), and the murders are not attributable to any other underlying criminal activity or commonplace circumstance (armed robbery, criminal competition, insurance fraud, argument, or romantic triangle).” 10 people could be shot in a gang shooting but if only 3 died it would not fit the definition.

LE takeaways from the largest database of life histories of U.S. mass shooters

Researchers say being part of a set of available and long-term resources to preempt active shooters is far more important than annual active shooter drills

www.police1.com

I've been to 18 different states, and multiple European countries lol so yes I do have a pretty good understanding of different cultures. The entire point I was making that some are comfortable just saying,...culture issues,....mental health cuz reasons. Yet every other peer country seems to not have same homicide issue. The argument that these countries can't be compared is insane, think of the cultural differences between North/South Italy, it's not unique that there are "different cultures" in a country.

The issue of urban vs rural crime is an attempt to place blame on different group because you see them as "others", fact is it's all bad. Yes, crime will happen in densely populated *spoiler*, but that's the same in every other country too. How do you think crime happens in other countries? Inter-farm violence?

Idk it is what is and nothing will happen and I'm genuinely interested how "culture issues" are addressed, surely this wouldn't involve better support for people below the poverty line or refusing donations from the NRA? Maybe Columbine/Sandy Hook can be taken out of the history books cuz it's hurtful and makes gun owners big sad.

 

[drayer54]

Looks more like a police problem than a gun problem.



Also, this transfer is a felony with UBCs.

Off-duty CBP agent borrowed shotgun, rushed into school to save daughter, wife, dozens of kids

An off-duty U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent grabbed his barber’s shotgun and sprinted into the Robb Elemental School in Uvalde, Texas school

americanmilitarynews.com

Idk it is what is and nothing will happen and I'm genuinely interested how "culture issues" are addressed, surely this wouldn't involve better support for people below the poverty line or refusing donations from the NRA? Maybe Columbine/Sandy Hook can be taken out of the history books cuz it's hurtful and makes gun owners big sad.

📂Documents
└📁Shootings
└📁Mass Shootings
└📁Mass Shootings Committed By NRA Members
└⚠️ This folder is empty

 

[TorontoGold]

📂Documents
└📁Shootings
└📁Mass Shootings
└📁Mass Shootings Committed By NRA Members
└⚠️ This folder is empty

Nicholas Cruz was part of a rifle team that got a grant from the NRA.

 

[Blazers46]

I've been to 18 different states, and multiple European countries lol so yes I do have a pretty good understanding of different cultures. The entire point I was making that some are comfortable just saying,...culture issues,....mental health cuz reasons. Yet every other peer country seems to not have same homicide issue. The argument that these countries can't be compared is insane, think of the cultural differences between North/South Italy, it's not unique that there are "different cultures" in a country.

The issue of urban vs rural crime is an attempt to place blame on different group because you see them as "others", fact is it's all bad. Yes, crime will happen in densely populated *spoiler*, but that's the same in every other country too. How do you think crime happens in other countries? Inter-farm violence?

Idk it is what is and nothing will happen and I'm genuinely interested how "culture issues" are addressed, surely this wouldn't involve better support for people below the poverty line or refusing donations from the NRA? Maybe Columbine/Sandy Hook can be taken out of the history books cuz it's hurtful and makes gun owners big sad.

What’s the point of cultural sensitivity or diversity training if culture equates to people just being the same and outcomes being the same no matter the factor? I’m not saying we can’t compare but you are making it the only thing that matters without acknowledging cultural differences. You are not comparing, you are making it your whole argument… your “smoking gun” if you will…

I think you are misinterpreting everything I just wrote as some conspiracy to place blame on inner city violence. We can argue for days/months/years but if we cannot get our terms down and issues defined then we are just going to argue about what we might think is the same but totally different and the conversion goes nowhere. I’m not placing blame on any group I’m just simply asking we define our terms and find where the problem is. What is a mass shooting? What is a school shooting? Sounds elementary but the differing numbers all over media and even in political debates between leaders making the decisions are staggering. Your accusations that I’m trying to blame a certain group is a great example of why things can’t get done. Playing the “gotcha, that’s racist” shtick… I know it’s fun and you wear the talking points well but it’s very unproductive.

 

[drayer54]

Nicholas Cruz was part of a rifle team that got a grant from the NRA.

Exactly. If that reach is all you got. He used some stuff that was bought by NRA and was a walking disaster. That incident response is going to be replaced as the worst ever by Uvalde who apparently let every kid bleed out and took indefensible action.

 

[TorontoGold]

What’s the point of cultural sensitivity or diversity training if culture equates to people just being the same and outcomes being the same no matter the factor? I’m not saying we can’t compare but you are making it the only thing that matters without acknowledging cultural differences. You are not comparing, you are making it your whole argument… your “smoking gun” if you will…

I think you are misinterpreting everything I just wrote as some conspiracy to place blame on inner city violence. We can argue for days/months/years but if we cannot get our terms down and issues defined then we are just going to argue about what we might think is the same but totally different and the conversion goes nowhere. I’m not placing blame on any group I’m just simply asking we define our terms and find where the problem is. What is a mass shooting? What is a school shooting? Sounds elementary but the differing numbers all over media and even in political debates between leaders making the decisions are staggering. Your accusations that I’m trying to blame a certain group is a great example of why things can’t get done. Playing the “gotcha, that’s racist” shtick… I know it’s fun and you wear the talking points well but it’s very unproductive.

I'll make it clearer for you - the environmental factors that you've claimed such as poverty rates, mental health, and single parenting have been shown to be higher in other developed countries, yet have significantly lower homicide rates. These countries have much stronger gun control laws and regulations, my position is that these laws have been beneficial in reducing homicides. The argument you've provided is that there are "cultural differences" that cause the US to have significantly higher homicide rates despite performing as well or better in the previously mentioned categories.

Yes, you're the victim. Modern conservativitism in a nutshell "I can't be called out on my shit, I'm being canceled!" when you say shit like "I'll say the quiet part out load" or "certain cultural aspects" as if certain Amercian cultures are predisposed to be criminals lol. You know what you meant and didn't expect to be called out. I only pay tax in New York, I can't vote there (Mr. Soros hasn't sent me my alloted 10 mail in ballots) so I'm not sure how I'm the problem.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Father of the Year

Texas School Shooter’s Dad: ‘He Should’ve Just Killed Me’

His son murdered 21 people at an elementary school in Uvalde in the latest explosion of mass gun violence in America.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Blazers46]

I'll make it clearer for you - the environmental factors that you've claimed such as poverty rates, mental health, and single parenting have been shown to be higher in other developed countries, yet have significantly lower homicide rates. These countries have much stronger gun control laws and regulations, my position is that these laws have been beneficial in reducing homicides. The argument you've provided is that there are "cultural differences" that cause the US to have significantly higher homicide rates despite performing as well or better in the previously mentioned categories.

Yes, you're the victim. Modern conservativitism in a nutshell "I can't be called out on my shit, I'm being canceled!" when you say shit like "I'll say the quiet part out load" or "certain cultural aspects" as if certain Amercian cultures are predisposed to be criminals lol. You know what you meant and didn't expect to be called out. I only pay tax in New York, I can't vote there (Mr. Soros hasn't sent me my alloted 10 mail in ballots) so I'm not sure how I'm the problem.

I never said anyone was predisposed to anything… you’re all over the place. Lost. Triggered. Trollish at this point. Somehow went to mail in ballots and Soros… checking all the boxes today, well done.

 

[Blazers46]

Father of the Year

Texas School Shooter’s Dad: ‘He Should’ve Just Killed Me’

His son murdered 21 people at an elementary school in Uvalde in the latest explosion of mass gun violence in America.

www.thedailybeast.com

Dad issues…