Another Shooting

[GowerND11]

If someone is denied access to a firearm (for whatever reason), they're going to find alternative means. People are murdered in the UK by machetes and suicide bombs go off regularly in the middle east.

You wanna compare us to the rest of the world? These school shootings don't happen in Israel because the teachers are armed and trained. Not saying we need to or should mimic it, but don't paint the picture that the US is full of school massacres while the rest of the world doesn't have their own murder issues.

They don't happen in other countries who don't arm their teachers though too...

 

[Irish#1]

There was definitely a surge then, but there was also a surge earlier in the year when lockdowns started, and again later in the year when the Big Lie was birthed through January when, well, you know.

Looking at the NICS Database there was a steady increase in 2019 through February 2020. March took a big jump then dropped off in April. May, June and July (Floyd incident and riots) saw a significant jump again. August and September declined some, but October through December (Christmas presents?) saw a significant increase which continued thru June of 2021. It wasn't until July 2021 that they returned to levels closer to 2019.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/view

 

[drayer54]

Looking at the NICS Database there was a steady increase in 2019 through February 2020. March took a big jump then dropped off in April. May, June and July (Floyd incident and riots) saw a significant jump again. August and September declined some, but October through December (Christmas presents?) saw a significant increase which continued thru June of 2021. It wasn't until July 2021 that they returned to levels closer to 2019.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/view

Americans recognized that cities will allow violent mobs to run rampant and you are on your own for defense. The details from the shooting yesterday are becoming more and more troubling about the lack of an effective response. You can't trust the police or government to defend you from evil.

 

[Irish#1]

I don’t really post in politics threads anymore, but this blew my mind. For years all I’ve heard is that more security, “good guy with a gun,” arming teachers, etc. is the answer. We now have two high profile school shootings recently where cops // school resource officers *intentionally* stood outside and did not engage while a shooter rampaged through the school. Is this cowardice or bad policy? Or both?

From what I read, the school security guard was killed, then two policemen who arrived were shot at. This may be why they paused? Definitely waited too long. Per one policeman, in a situation like this, protocol is to go in asap to save as many lives as possible.

 

[drayer54]

People are saying that parents and armed bystanders were trying to enter and were stopped by police.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Husband of one of the teachers that was killed, died of a heart attack today.

 

[Rogue219]

I have a hard time believing that arming teachers, waiters, supermarket clerks, church pastors, etc. is a solution to the problem.

This would certainly come with a pay raise. The people working the snack bar at the movie theater wil likely require more than minimum wage to return fire on a shooter. This might sound flippant, but considering "nobody wants to work" I would be willing to bet they're going to want to work less for a min wage job where they are required to have weapons training.

School boards across America are restricting what teachers can teach, banning books, but some have also come to the conclusion they should be trained to handle fire arms? Imagine a kid as big as a tight end manages to disarm his teacher.

Then again, if the police let this guy go wild for an hour and wouldn't enter the school to do THEIR job, maybe we have no other choice in the matter.

 

[Rogue219]

Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering

As police detailed new timeline of mass shooting at elementary school, residents expressed frustration about the time it took for law enforcement to end the shooting. Videos circulated on social media showing parents confronting police outside the building.

www.wsj.com

 

[zelezo vlk]

With every new detail that arises, this becomes worse.

Sent from my SM-J337U using Tapatalk

 

[Rockin’Irish]

It is possible that the police officers, etc. that responded to the call we’re getting some conflicting information about exactly what was going on inside the school (number of assailants, hostages, etc.) so that delayed them rushing into the school? Hopefully there will be a reasonable explanation for the delay but I realize for the families outside, nothing will be reasonable. Whenever a tragedy occurs, the blame game begins. We should never lose sight that the ultimate cause still lies with the shooter while still addressing any other human error.

 

[Rogue219]

https://t.co/nq1tVBAAMU

Chicago's Gun Trace Report from 2017.

Where are Police Union's with this, I don't know, but I think they'd be the first ones that would rather not be outgunned in the streets.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

https://t.co/nq1tVBAAMU

Chicago's Gun Trace Report from 2017.

Where are Police Union's with this, I don't know, but I think they'd be the first ones that would rather not be outgunned in the streets.

Thanks for posting, still reading the report but do you know if there are any follow up reports to the 2017 version?

 

[ab2cmiller]

OK this is really disturbing. Kid is outside the school for 12 minutes firing guns before entering the school. No armed ISD officer.

 

[dublinirish]

From what I read, the school security guard was killed, then two policemen who arrived were shot at. This may be why they paused? Definitely waited too long. Per one policeman, in a situation like this, protocol is to go in asap to save as many lives as possible.

Protocol maybe but cops aren't obligated to do shit if they don't want to. Even if innocent kids are being slaughtered

 

[goldandblue]

It looks like there were several opportunities to stop this from happening or at least minimizing the damage. Such a sad, terrible incident.

 

[Blazers46]

OK this is really disturbing. Kid is outside the school for 12 minutes firing guns before entering the school. No armed ISD officer.

Insane

 

[IrishLax]

The more that comes out, the more insane this looks.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

My blood is boiling the more that comes out.

I don't care what any court says.
Society has always deemed that there is no more urgent call to arms than child in danger.

A whole school full of them. Those cops are a bunch of fucking pussies.

Every last single one of them I hope every fucking person they love and care for shuns them after reminding them what pussies they really are.

 

[ulukinatme]

OK this is really disturbing. Kid is outside the school for 12 minutes firing guns before entering the school. No armed ISD officer.

Every school should absolutely have just one point of access from the outside, and you should have to be buzzed in by the secretary. I'm in shock that all schools aren't currently doing this. The whole thing probably could have been prevented or at least minimized. My kids have been in school for 6 years now and in all three schools they've been in you can't enter unless you get buzzed in from the secretary. We've lived in relatively quiet conservative towns too.

I've seen a lot of conflicting reports on the response time by officers, and there's the fact that it was Border Patrol tactical officers that were the ones to take him down. Supposedly officers were shot outside the school before the shooter moved in, and once he got to the classroom it was locked/barricaded so they worked to keep him pinned down and evacuate the rest. I certainly don't think defunding officers is the solution as people have been crying for years, they need more resources.

Schools have become the favorite target of these psychopaths because they're vulnerable and they know they'll be remembered even if it's for the wrong reasons. You can try to confiscate America's nearly 400 million gun armament, but you'll never get them all if you tried. Laws only apply to law abiding citizens, these people will still find ways to arm themselves because Pandora's Box has been opened. Until schools are no longer the most vulnerable place to carry out murder suicides for these sickos, we'll continue to see more school shootings. If we can give $40 billion to Ukraine, we can very easily spend at least that much to fortify and staff security for our schools. It's the sad truth. People say it'll turn schools into prisons. We're not seeing mass murders by gunmen at prisons though.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

idiotic statement

It's an ugly truth. If the shooter had been a white kid (regardless of the victims), the narrative from the left would've been "yet another horrific murder caused by white supremacy."

 

[drayer54]

We got kids shooting outside of schools for 12 minutes and unlocked doors. A miserable response from law enforcement and people are crying about background checks like that was the problem. This response was dreadfully inadequate.

 

[Blazers46]

Share of the population with anxiety disorders

Estimated share of people with anxiety disorders, whether or not they are diagnosed, based on representative surveys, medical data and statistical modelling.

ourworldindata.org

Anxiety disorders are higher in Germany which also has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

Share of population with mental health disorders

This includes depression, anxiety, bipolar, eating disorders, and schizophrenia.

ourworldindata.org

Mental health disorders as a whole....France has a similar share, yet a much lower homicide rate.

We can cherry pick different country’s and other cultures and you can frame whatever argument you want… I mean… you are convinced Pakistan throws out legit crime stats so this conversion is pointless.

France… Germany… cool. Americans are just different. Americans are entitled and have very unrealistic expectations for what life should look like compared to what they can actually afford or should be trying to afford. I remember having clients living in trailer parks with $800 truck payments. Guys working at the jail begging for extra hours to pay their car bills or that mortgage they should have never taken out.

Not sure if you have been to France or Germany but the people are just a bit different. A lot of foreigners think we are arrogant and superficial. They are probably right. We are comparing Apples and Oranges. Those gangs in the UK, Germany or France just don’t get down like the gangs in South Chicago or North side of St Louis. Apples and Oranges.

 

[TorontoGold]

We can cherry pick different country’s and other cultures and you can frame whatever argument you want… I mean… you are convinced Pakistan throws out legit crime stats so this conversion is pointless.

France… Germany… cool. Americans are just different. Americans are entitled and have very unrealistic expectations for what life should look like compared to what they can actually afford or should be trying to afford. I remember having clients living in trailer parks with $800 truck payments. Guys working at the jail begging for extra hours to pay their car bills or that mortgage they should have never taken out.

Not sure if you have been to France or Germany but the people are just a bit different. A lot of foreigners think we are arrogant and superficial. They are probably right. We are comparing Apples and Oranges. Those gangs in the UK, Germany or France just don’t get down like the gangs in South Chicago or North side of St Louis. Apples and Oranges.

Cherry pick? I gave peer countries, what do you want me to say - Sierra Leone? Sudan?

Also, you've provided no statistical support to your arguments. It's literally just a feelings based argument. Mental health? Well, we've seen that was not the answer you thought it was. Poverty? Nope to that argument. Single parents? Nope...again. I'm not the one making excuses or making a feelings based argument.

What stats do you have to support any of your stances. It's pretty laughable to make the argument that gangs are different in Europe, you know where the term "mafia" comes from....right? Slavic and Balkan mobs can't hold a candle to North St. Louis! l o l

 

[Blazers46]

Cherry pick? I gave peer countries, what do you want me to say - Sierra Leone? Sudan?

Also, you've provided no statistical support to your arguments. It's literally just a feelings based argument. Mental health? Well, we've seen that was not the answer you thought it was. Poverty? Nope to that argument. Single parents? Nope...again. I'm not the one making excuses or making a feelings based argument.

What stats do you have to support any of your stances. It's pretty laughable to make the argument that gangs are different in Europe, you know where the term "mafia" comes from....right? Slavic and Balkan mobs can't hold a candle to North St. Louis! l o l

I don’t think I made the poverty argument but it could for sure play a role. Single parent/missing dad homes and mental health I stand firm on. You’re making it sound like your counter arguments consisting of zero data somehow contradict or prove false what I said. Just because you say it, doesn’t make what you say more true and what I say less true or false… your counter argument has basically consisted of the equivalent of an “I know you are but what am I”. You are just claiming you are right and I am wrong with no evidence presented yourself.

What is your counter argument besides “no you’re wrong”? Or is your main point and purpose here just that? It’s one thing to object to an argument but to offer no solutions yourself seems a bit trollish and unproductive.

Im not saying if we solve single parent homes and mental health or even poverty that we stop all homicides and mass shootings. It’s not the end all solution and maybe a fairy tale to dissolve all single family homes… but it’s significant enough to mention.

I think it laughable you are arguing homicide rates in America and the correlation with peer countries now arguing peer countries are more dangerous because the European mob… I think you are just arguing or the sake for arguing, but then again it’s easy to just shout someone is wrong when you are coming from a place of offering no solutions yourself.

Been driving all day so I apologize I didn’t cite my sources in APA format.

Here is some lazy plagiarized copy and paste stats:

• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

These are examples of what people call risk factors.

Here are some risk factors identified in mass shooters:

1. Gender (male)

2. Aggressive behaviors - Research has consistently found that early aggressive behavior during childhood is a predictor of later aggressive, antisocial, violent, and criminal behavior, including mass shootings. Fatherless children are 70% more likely to commit violent crimes.

3. Social exclusion and isolation - Bullying, regular victimization, marginalization or being ostracized by peers are risk factors for youth violence. Victims of bullying in particular, may develop feelings of resentment for a particular group of individuals or for a community (perhaps the school he goes to), which may contribute to engaging in acts of extreme violence such as mass shootings. Depression and low self-esteem are common traits held by fatherless children, they are also 85% more likely to have a mental disorder.

4. Family and Neighborhood - Some of the family characteristics that contribute to youth violence include divorce, child abuse, domestic violence, being on welfare and having a mother who is young or unemployed. Growing up in a violent neighborhood and witnessing crime are also risk factors for violence.

Again not an end all solution but we would be remiss not to discuss.

Here is a good article

The Crisis of Fatherless Shooters

In the wake of the Parkland massacre, the age-old question, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” has a newfound relevance. As another mass school shooting stuns Americans, it is time to talk about not just how to protect students from shooters, but also about what must happen so that fewer students...

www.heritage.org

From the article: Among the 25 most-cited school shooters since Columbine, 75 percent were reared in broken homes. Psychologist Dr. Peter Langman, a pre-eminent expert on school shooters, found that most came from incredibly broken homes of not just divorce and separation, but also infidelity, substance abuse, criminal behavior, domestic violence, and child abuse.

 

[GATTACA!]

Anybody see the pictures of Uvdale’s sick SWAT team floating around? Bunch of larping pussies. The one time your tiny city actually needed such a ridiculous show of force and they’re all completely MIA. Had to rely on an off duty boarder patrol officer driving there from 40 minutes away to take care of their problem.

Been trying to stay away from this story because it just makes my blood absolutely boil.

 

[GoIrish41]

Give up your fundamental rights and accept burdensome regulations designed to bankrupt the firearms industry and make gun ownership tougher but do nothing to stop bad guys while we still release violent criminals to the streets and refuse to maintain order during civil unrest and surging crime is not a message that resonates with me.

We pass UBC’s then another one happens- then what? Keep going… keep going… No thanks.

Do the next thing we should have done 20 years ago?

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

I don’t think I made the poverty argument but it could for sure play a role. Single parent/missing dad homes and mental health I stand firm on. You’re making it sound like your counter arguments consisting of zero data somehow contradict or prove false what I said. Just because you say it, doesn’t make what you say more true and what I say less true or false… your counter argument has basically consisted of the equivalent of an “I know you are but what am I”. You are just claiming you are right and I am wrong with no evidence presented yourself.

What is your counter argument besides “no you’re wrong”? Or is your main point and purpose here just that? It’s one thing to object to an argument but to offer no solutions yourself seems a bit trollish and unproductive.

Im not saying if we solve single parent homes and mental health or even poverty that we stop all homicides and mass shootings. It’s not the end all solution and maybe a fairy tale to dissolve all single family homes… but it’s significant enough to mention.

I think it laughable you are arguing homicide rates in America and the correlation with peer countries now arguing peer countries are more dangerous because the European mob… I think you are just arguing or the sake for arguing, but then again it’s easy to just shout someone is wrong when you are coming from a place of offering no solutions yourself.

Been driving all day so I apologize I didn’t cite my sources in APA format.

Here is some lazy plagiarized copy and paste stats:

• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

These are examples of what people call risk factors.

Here are some risk factors identified in mass shooters:

1. Gender (male)

2. Aggressive behaviors - Research has consistently found that early aggressive behavior during childhood is a predictor of later aggressive, antisocial, violent, and criminal behavior, including mass shootings. Fatherless children are 70% more likely to commit violent crimes.

3. Social exclusion and isolation - Bullying, regular victimization, marginalization or being ostracized by peers are risk factors for youth violence. Victims of bullying in particular, may develop feelings of resentment for a particular group of individuals or for a community (perhaps the school he goes to), which may contribute to engaging in acts of extreme violence such as mass shootings. Depression and low self-esteem are common traits held by fatherless children, they are also 85% more likely to have a mental disorder.

4. Family and Neighborhood - Some of the family characteristics that contribute to youth violence include divorce, child abuse, domestic violence, being on welfare and having a mother who is young or unemployed. Growing up in a violent neighborhood and witnessing crime are also risk factors for violence.

Again not an end all solution but we would be remiss not to discuss.

Here is a good article

The Crisis of Fatherless Shooters

In the wake of the Parkland massacre, the age-old question, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” has a newfound relevance. As another mass school shooting stuns Americans, it is time to talk about not just how to protect students from shooters, but also about what must happen so that fewer students...

www.heritage.org

From the article: Among the 25 most-cited school shooters since Columbine, 75 percent were reared in broken homes. Psychologist Dr. Peter Langman, a pre-eminent expert on school shooters, found that most came from incredibly broken homes of not just divorce and separation, but also infidelity, substance abuse, criminal behavior, domestic violence, and child abuse.

Why are school shootings largely a 90s on phenomenom though?

I know people did it prior and history has shown that even going back to the 1700's they have happened in this country.

But it's like Columbine and then it's a pandemic.

 

[irishff1014]

The more that comes out, the more insane this looks.

I read somewhere the response took 40 mins for the police. I haven’t had time to research this but if that’s the case this is awful and someone needs to be fired over that decision.

 

[TorontoGold]

I don’t think I made the poverty argument but it could for sure play a role. Single parent/missing dad homes and mental health I stand firm on. You’re making it sound like your counter arguments consisting of zero data somehow contradict or prove false what I said. Just because you say it, doesn’t make what you say more true and what I say less true or false… your counter argument has basically consisted of the equivalent of an “I know you are but what am I”. You are just claiming you are right and I am wrong with no evidence presented yourself.

What is your counter argument besides “no you’re wrong”? Or is your main point and purpose here just that? It’s one thing to object to an argument but to offer no solutions yourself seems a bit trollish and unproductive.

Im not saying if we solve single parent homes and mental health or even poverty that we stop all homicides and mass shootings. It’s not the end all solution and maybe a fairy tale to dissolve all single family homes… but it’s significant enough to mention.

I think it laughable you are arguing homicide rates in America and the correlation with peer countries now arguing peer countries are more dangerous because the European mob… I think you are just arguing or the sake for arguing, but then again it’s easy to just shout someone is wrong when you are coming from a place of offering no solutions yourself.

Been driving all day so I apologize I didn’t cite my sources in APA format.

Here is some lazy plagiarized copy and paste stats:

• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

These are examples of what people call risk factors.

Here are some risk factors identified in mass shooters:

1. Gender (male)

2. Aggressive behaviors - Research has consistently found that early aggressive behavior during childhood is a predictor of later aggressive, antisocial, violent, and criminal behavior, including mass shootings. Fatherless children are 70% more likely to commit violent crimes.

3. Social exclusion and isolation - Bullying, regular victimization, marginalization or being ostracized by peers are risk factors for youth violence. Victims of bullying in particular, may develop feelings of resentment for a particular group of individuals or for a community (perhaps the school he goes to), which may contribute to engaging in acts of extreme violence such as mass shootings. Depression and low self-esteem are common traits held by fatherless children, they are also 85% more likely to have a mental disorder.

4. Family and Neighborhood - Some of the family characteristics that contribute to youth violence include divorce, child abuse, domestic violence, being on welfare and having a mother who is young or unemployed. Growing up in a violent neighborhood and witnessing crime are also risk factors for violence.

Again not an end all solution but we would be remiss not to discuss.

Here is a good article

The Crisis of Fatherless Shooters

In the wake of the Parkland massacre, the age-old question, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” has a newfound relevance. As another mass school shooting stuns Americans, it is time to talk about not just how to protect students from shooters, but also about what must happen so that fewer students...

www.heritage.org

From the article: Among the 25 most-cited school shooters since Columbine, 75 percent were reared in broken homes. Psychologist Dr. Peter Langman, a pre-eminent expert on school shooters, found that most came from incredibly broken homes of not just divorce and separation, but also infidelity, substance abuse, criminal behavior, domestic violence, and child abuse.

Those are all important statistics, yes. The point you have missed is that these issues are not only things experienced in the US. As I have shown prior, these all are parts of peer countries that have the same risk factors present.

You want my proposed solutions? Better social programs to assist those in poverty, access to affordable health care (not just mental health, if your teeth are falling out...likely not going to have a lot of confidence), having children think they are in a prison is likely not conducive to good mental health, obviously better gun control regulations but we all know that's a fairy tale.

The irony of the same posters advocating that a piece of cloth on a child's face will cause irreputable harm but teaching them that it's normal to learn about being shot at school is a-ok for the psyche. So pro-life that a hobby takes precedence to people's lives. COD cosplayers didn't actually do their job, and yet more people want to give them fancy expensive guns. It's all a joke. Yolo, I guess the solution is arming more people so that conflicts are resolved with shootouts in parking lots. I have never been able to understand it, since I was a kid seeing billboards for buying rifles but none for cigarettes or XXX videos never made sense. Should have thrown those into a 1700's document to protect them.

 

[drayer54]

The irony of the same posters advocating that a piece of cloth on a child's face will cause irreputable harm but teaching them that it's normal to learn about being shot at school is a-ok for the psyche. So pro-life that a hobby takes precedence to people's lives. COD cosplayers didn't actually do their job, and yet more people want to give them fancy expensive guns. It's all a joke.

I'm in agreement with Chris Hayes. And yes, masks are damaging.