Offensive Line Thread

[benneboy]

I just read another post which said that Patterson was coming back --- I didn't realize that was even possible. Guess THAT makes things even simpler.

He is expected to be fully healthy at some point in the summer I believe. Then it's a matter of how much strength he can safely get back.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Wanna go on an ate with me? I'll give you the D later.

Could you do me a favor? Could you get on your knees and smile like a donut?

They call me "the fireman" because I turn the hoes on.

Santa's lap isn't the only place wishes come true.

I may not be the best-looking guy in here, but I'm the only one talking to you.

Do you play volleyball? Because you look like you’re good on your knees!

Damn girl, you smell good! What is that... McDonald's?

Hi, will you help me find my lost puppy? I think he went into this cheap motel room across the street.

Let's go to my place and do the things I'll tell everyone we did anyway.

You must live on a chicken farm, ‘cause you sure know how to raise cocks.

 

[ulukinatme]

Maybe Fisher is only marginally better on the left side than Alt, but vastly superior on the right?
Or maybe Alt is just the better player?

Bowl grading said Fish is the best on the OL, which is surprising since he only played half a game before getting injured for most of the year. He's just a monster, there's a reason he was set to start at LT at the beginning of the season. He's a good kid too though, he's always posting stuff where he's visiting schools in South Bend. I'm pullin' for him big. Like Lax side, it could be that since Fish is more physical they want him on the right side now for run blocking.

 

[ulukinatme]

Wanna go on an ate with me? I'll give you the D later.

Could you do me a favor? Could you get on your knees and smile like a donut?

They call me "the fireman" because I turn the hoes on.

Santa's lap isn't the only place wishes come true.

I may not be the best-looking guy in here, but I'm the only one talking to you.

Do you play volleyball? Because you look like you’re good on your knees!

Damn girl, you smell good! What is that... McDonald's?

Hi, will you help me find my lost puppy? I think he went into this cheap motel room across the street.

Let's go to my place and do the things I'll tell everyone we did anyway.

You must live on a chicken farm, ‘cause you sure know how to raise cocks.

Dude, I thought you were Browner for a moment with this post in the OL thread

 

[Bishop2b5]

Dude, I thought you were Browner for a moment with this post in the OL thread

I was starting to wonder if anyone would get the joke.

 

[Irish#1]

I dunno how true this is any more in 2022, but I feel like back in the day if you looked at body types you would say Alt is a traditional LT and Fisher is a traditional RT. I always felt like they put the longer guys at LT with emphasis on pass blocking and RT was often your bulkier tackle.

I also wonder how much Alt getting near a full season of reps at LT makes them want to go for consistency.

I had the same thought on Fisher at RT, but I was too lazy to try and find the stats that show which side we favored in the run game, if one side was favored a all.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Anytime we hear rumors that our OLine got handled in practice, we need to remember how good our DLine is.

Plus: OLines take longer to gel (especially in "hand-off" pass protection) than early DLine activity at the moment
of attack. I say it that way because just looking at a DLine rush doesn't really simulate the whole of a real game
situation as well as an OLine pass-protection "look" does. (i.e. crudely observed, one might see what one believes
is an OLine breakdown fairly easily in early drills [even if one is wrong], whereas a DLine screw-up takes more
understanding of the scheme to even notice the flaw in the first place. I wonder how good the reporters are at
understanding exactly what is going on in line play. It's easy to report on athleticism showing off in the open field,
but it takes some real expertise to assess line play on either side of the ball .)

I love the potential of Alt/Kristovic/Lugg/Fisher. If Patterson is in the middle, that sounds like four pros and a maybe
to me. Don't know how much else one could be asking for.

 

[Old Man Mike]

p.s. The set of offers for OLinemen put up by BobbyMac and Dale are terrifically exciting. Hope to Heaven that we begin getting verbals from some of these guys. If so, OLine U will exist in powerful reality from several more years. As long as we have the bigs (just like in Basketball), we will be in every game. If we ever get an elite "point-guard" (Quarterback), we'll threaten the play-offs every time (also just like Basketball.)

"Magic Distribution" and Big Power ... I'm not asking for too much, am I?

 

[Dale]

O’Malley on the II pod: “3 backups looked good, I have not come away from any practice the last couple years thinking (that)”

Also him and Prister both agreed Baker looked good for basically the first time ever that they saw

 

[DONTH8]

O’Malley on the II pod: “3 backups looked good, I have not come away from any practice the last couple years thinking (that)”

Also him and Prister both agreed Baker looked good for basically the first time ever that they saw

BobbyMac:

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

O’Malley on the II pod: “3 backups looked good, I have not come away from any practice the last couple years thinking (that)”

Also him and Prister both agreed Baker looked good for basically the first time ever that they saw

Baker looked like a guy who made a ton of mental errors. He seemed to get beat because he didn't understand when or where he was getting help from. I wasn't ready to give up on him but at this point he's got a pretty difficult path to playing time because I really can't see him on the interior.

 

[ulukinatme]

O’Malley on the II pod: “3 backups looked good, I have not come away from any practice the last couple years thinking (that)”

Also him and Prister both agreed Baker looked good for basically the first time ever that they saw

Damn, is Harry turning things around that fast or is it just coincidence? It's hard to believe there were fans on social media that were adamant Quinn was the guy, and questioned if Harry was worth it if he wasn't going to be a recruiter.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Quinn's good, and was good with us. CoachH's capable of greatness, plus he has the best NFL family tree players to point to and bring back to Wow folks. That latter part if properly utilized, should be the recruiting wildcard. As to players stepping up --- players who want to play do that from one year to another. What Coach Hiestand's mere presence will immediately do is inspire a veteran to push himself, and then more slowly teach him to be NFL ready as the training goes on.

Some improvement should be "naturally" expected by any true studs. Other improvement will more slowly happen because they're around a genius --- they just have to want it now.

 

[NDdomer2]

The OL recruiting machine has been rolling for a while now and we played alot of guys last year so that should equate to a deeper more experienced looking group.

While we upgraded with Harry, Quinn is no slouch and has developed his own NFL players. These guys are/were well coached.

 

[ulukinatme]

Quinn didn't really develop anyone that Harry didn't have a real hand in first. If he was good he would have been retained.

 

[BobbyMac]

Quinn didn't really develop anyone that Harry didn't have a real hand in first. If he was good he would have been retained.

A HS TE becomes a freshman all american LT under him and he gets zero credit.

Who would’ve gotten drafted in 2018 if they included underclassmen in the draft? Eich? Banks? Hainsey?

How many returning Centers are rated higher than Patterson?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Alt's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him
Grunhard's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him

It seems like they might know a thing or two about OL coaching

Quinn was an easy target this year. They improved as a unit as the communication got better.

I'm glad HH is back, but to a certain degree it's rose colored glasses. HH helped develop lots of individual talent. But for as much individual talent as there was, most of his lines did not dominate. Yes I know HH was implementing whatever blocking style the OC wanted. I remember far too many seasons people grumbling about why can't we run the damn ball down their throat of the defense on 3rd and short.

My point is that most on here tend to understate Quinn's value as a coach while possibly overstating HH. Yes, I would take HH over Quinn, but you guys act like Quinn was terrible. He was not.

 

[ulukinatme]

A HS TE becomes a freshman all american LT under him and he gets zero credit.

Who would’ve gotten drafted in 2018 if they included underclassmen in the draft? Eich? Banks? Hainsey?

How many returning Centers are rated higher than Patterson?

You talkin' about Eichenberg? He had a few years with Harry before he got the start.

Not every linemen coming out of high school is ready to dominate like Fish and Q. Those guys are more like the exception to the rule. Of course I wouldn't expect underclassmen like Banks and Hainsey to be drafted in 2018 after having a year or so in the program.

I would hope Patterson would be highly rated, he's had 3 years of experience as a starter at this point. What's more surprising is he wasn't a lock for the draft after that. Tell me that's not indicative of Quinn's failure.

Fish and Alt may be phenomenal talents for freshmen, but it's not exactly a good sign for your OL development when 18 year olds are beating out guys that have been in the program for awhile. Some of that was on Harry having one foot out the door in 2018 from a recruiting perspective, but Quinn bears most the responsibility for taking half a season in 2021 to establish a somewhat manageable OL. It wasn't the first time he had trouble reloading despite having talent to work with, and it's likely a reason he wasn't asked back.

 

[ulukinatme]

Alt's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him
Grunhard's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him

It seems like they might know a thing or two about OL coaching

Quinn was an easy target this year. They improved as a unit as the communication got better.

I'm glad HH is back, but to a certain degree it's rose colored glasses. HH helped develop lots of individual talent. But for as much individual talent as there was, most of his lines did not dominate. Yes I know HH was implementing whatever blocking style the OC wanted. I remember far too many seasons people grumbling about why can't we run the damn ball down their throat of the defense on 3rd and short.

My point is that most on here tend to understate Quinn's value as a coach while possibly overstating HH. Yes, I would take HH over Quinn, but you guys act like Quinn was terrible. He was not.

Players often speak highly of their coaches, especially when they don't have anyone to compare them to. I speak highly of my mechanic too, until I find out there's a guy across town that does the same work for a lot less.

I didn't think my comments would be that inflammatory. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. We retained (However brief it was) most of our coaches except for Quinn and Del, and to a lesser extent Polian. Where were the obvious deficiencies on this team? WR and OL. Quinn didn't exactly have an empty cupboard to work with, he was taking over as OL coach at one of the schools that can claim the title of "OL U." If Quinn was great I would think he'd have an assistant coaching position right now. Again, proof is in the pudding.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Players often speak highly of their coaches, especially when they don't have anyone to compare them to. I speak highly of my mechanic too, until I find out there's a guy across town that does the same work for a lot less.

I didn't think my comments would be that inflammatory. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. We retained (However brief it was) most of our coaches except for Quinn and Del, and to a lesser extent Polian. Where were the obvious deficiencies on this team? WR and OL. Quinn didn't exactly have an empty cupboard to work with, he was taking over as OL coach at one of the schools that can claim the title of "OL U." If Quinn was great I would think he'd have an assistant coaching position right now. Again, proof is in the pudding.

As I said, Alt's father and Grunhard's father know a little bit about OL play. LOL. They have had tons of coaches to compare against. They spoke highly of Quinn. Their opinion means a lot more than yours.

 

[IrishMoore1]

As I said, Alt's father and Grunhard's father know a little bit about OL play. LOL. They have had tons of coaches to compare against. They spoke highly of Quinn. Their opinion means a lot more than yours.

Opinions aside, the results on the field are what matter, and the OL play was absolutely pathetic despite the talent we had. You can argue they got better as the season went on but so did the schedule. Doesn't hurt to have an elite guy like Kyren Williams who can make something out of nothing any time he touches the ball either. The line got exposed when they played a real team, and there's just no excuse for that. You can't justify the talent for the performance. That's on the coach.

 

[ulukinatme]

As I said, Alt's father and Grunhard's father know a little bit about OL play. LOL. They have had tons of coaches to compare against. They spoke highly of Quinn. Their opinion means a lot more than yours.

It's a rare thing for one of our parents to say something negative about their son's position coach or HC. It rarely reflects well on the parent, and in these coaching circles you never know when you could run into someone again.
Lou once said you're either growin' or you're dyin'. Would you say in your opinion OL got better as a position under Quinn or did they regress?

 

[BobbyMac]

It's a rare thing for one of our parents to say something negative about their son's position coach or HC. It rarely reflects well on the parent, and in these coaching circles you never know when you could run into someone again.
Lou once said you're either growin' or you're dyin'. Would you say in your opinion OL got better as a position under Quinn or did they regress?

It’s obvious to me if Quinn would’ve evaluated & recruited the ‘18 & ‘19 classes plus not been hamstrung in ‘20, the cupboard would’ve been stocked with real talent.

 

[ulukinatme]

It’s obvious to me if Quinn would’ve evaluated & recruited the ‘18 & ‘19 classes plus not been hamstrung in ‘20, the cupboard would’ve been stocked with real talent.

Did he not have a hand in recruiting '19 and onward? Getting the kids to campus is one thing, but they need to reach their potential too. Otherwise you've got a Phil Jurkovec. I won't argue that he was a good talent evaluator, but if he was that good you think they would have tried to keep him in some capacity behind the scenes like Bill Rees.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Alt's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him
Grunhard's father spoke highly of how Quinn coached him

It seems like they might know a thing or two about OL coaching

Quinn was an easy target this year. They improved as a unit as the communication got better.

I'm glad HH is back, but to a certain degree it's rose colored glasses. HH helped develop lots of individual talent. But for as much individual talent as there was, most of his lines did not dominate. Yes I know HH was implementing whatever blocking style the OC wanted. I remember far too many seasons people grumbling about why can't we run the damn ball down their throat of the defense on 3rd and short.

My point is that most on here tend to understate Quinn's value as a coach while possibly overstating HH. Yes, I would take HH over Quinn, but you guys act like Quinn was terrible. He was not.

Specifically to the bolded, this was covered in post 2,391 not quite 3 months ago. I don't think it's right to say Quinn is trash. But I also don't think it's right to pretend that his overall performance was anywhere close to what HH produced. I have no clue what is going to happen next year or in HHv2 tenure. But the stats do not lie...Quinn produced overall lines that were inferior to HHv1.

I will do it for you, since I was curious and wanted to look it up. Below is the FO line metrics by year (2014 first year available). Numbers are national ranking, for standard downs line yards, passing downs line yards, % of carries that generate 4 yards, Power success, stuff rate, adj sack rate


2014 - 69, 42, 24, 44, 42, 30
2015 - 36, 3, 4, 58, 87, 56
2016 - 102, 8, 46, 16, 30, 95
2017 - 11, 20, 11, 38, 22, 65
2018 - 88, 120, 112, 23, 121, 38
2019 - 78, 42, 81, 106, 70, 16
2020 - 67, 9, 30, 32, 15, 82
2021 - 63, 86, 87, 83, 67, 84

There is also the total line yards, weighing all of these together versus the rest of the country. Overall Line Yards rank by year.

2014 - 32
2015 - 2
2016 - 18
2017 - 5
2018 - 106
2019- 62
2020 - 26
2021 - 70

Yea....it's not close. It's actually quite embarrassing for Quinn.

 

[NDdomer2]

Lol some real animosity towards quinn

 

[Old Man Mike]

... and incredible waste of energy and reading time.

 

[BobbyMac]

But the stats do not lie...Quinn produced overall lines that were inferior to HHv1.

In other news, Kobe Bryant was inferior to Michael Jordan.

 

[Ndaccountant]

In other news, Kobe Bryant was inferior to Michael Jordan.

If that is what the figures tell you, then yes.

But to me, it's more like Shaq versus Patrick Ewing.

 

[BobbyMac]

If that is what the figures tell you, then yes.

But to me, it's more like Shaq versus Patrick Ewing.

LOL... That too!