Offensive Line Thread

[zelezo vlk]

Not sure what he is going for, but Hainsey got early PT - can't remember who he beat out though

I think he and Kraemer were splitting time at RT in 2017.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Hainsey split the time with Kraemer. Both played alternate series.


otherwise, agree with Dale: not sure what DN's talking about. Not aware of such inside info on Coach Hiestand's mental processes.

 

[BobbyMac]

HH seems like a new man, so not sure if things have changed….

… but the old HH would start the Sophomore with the NFL-upside over the lower-ceiling upper-class man every time.

In fact, the main gripe with HH from his previous stint is that he seemed to focus on the latest stud he recruited and not really pay attention to or develop the backups. So basically, if you were a 4-5 star and recruited as an OT you were going to play (they may slide you in), if you were a 3-star or recruited as an OG you were not. (There we’re a couple exceptions.)

Now the reality is that the 4-5 star OTs are just better talent, so much of this is just life and sour grapes. If you are a good, but not great, P5 online recruit and want to play, ND is not the safe bet! However, HH sounded like a grumpy perfectionist, so it wouldn’t be shocking if he lacked some patience with the projects and less-talented kids.

Harry played his blue chippers early and rode those guys in cohesive units for years... that's why ND had great line play as the different core's matured. What HH didn't really have was an overload of blue chippers but thanks to the elite guys hitting and a lot of luck that the Martins/Stanley/Q/McG types weren't frequently on the IR, he used a small group of guys to do a lot of damage in his 6 years.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Coach Hiestand had to stack a fairly thin cupboard when he originally came. Fortunately he had his starters and two very young guys to later lean on (NMart and Stanley.) His first full recruiting year added 5 guys, and the next year 4 more. That re-loaded the room. But then he had an almost total miss in the 2015 class (Tillery would have solved some of that had he stayed on offense in the staff's mind, but it is telling that Coach Kelly felt that Coach Hiestand had things under control even with the missing OLine class.) Coach H had Elmer, McGlinchey, Bivin, McGovern, Bars, Mustipher, and Q to mature into a High Quality pair of lines by 2017-8 era, and leave a player like Tillery on Defense. With the miss in 2015 and just the three man class in 2016 (two of which hit big admittedly) we were good on the field and still too thin on the bench. We needed a normal sized class in 2017, and Coach H came through with four decent prospects (Hainsey, Lugg, Banks, and Gibbons.)

The "first Hiestand era" was characterizable by OLine rooms running fairly thin in numbers (you should have about 16 out of 85 scholarships therein), but high-end stars utilizable as intensely worked 5-man units. It was also begun with pretty bad QB passing play, allowing much box stacking and therefore "limping" running success. Bad QB play is not the OLine's fault in these cases, and often protection breakdowns weren't either --- if one watched our pitiful RB allegedly blitz blocking attempts (and even TE blocking some years.)

The gripe against Coach, I felt, was the missing 2015 recruiting year, and the fact that we only got three the next (one of which, Boudreaux, turned into a miss.) That pair of years, adding only two viable OLinemen to the room, was not good recruiting. MAYBE, the fact that he had to get out and really hustle in 2017 contributed to him looking to get away from that aspect of things for awhile. Hopefully, he and Freeman have worked this out if it's even an issue.

 

[BobbyMac]

Coach Hiestand had to stack a fairly thin cupboard when he originally came. Fortunately he had his starters and two very young guys to later lean on (NMart and Stanley.) His first full recruiting year added 5 guys, and the next year 4 more. That re-loaded the room. But then he had an almost total miss in the 2015 class (Tillery would have solved some of that had he stayed on offense in the staff's mind, but it is telling that Coach Kelly felt that Coach Hiestand had things under control even with the missing OLine class.) Coach H had Elmer, McGlinchey, Bivin, McGovern, Bars, Mustipher, and Q to mature into a High Quality pair of lines by 2017-8 era, and leave a player like Tillery on Defense. With the miss in 2015 and just the three man class in 2016 (two of which hit big admittedly) we were good on the field and still too thin on the bench. We needed a normal sized class in 2017, and Coach H came through with four decent prospects (Hainsey, Lugg, Banks, and Gibbons.)

The "first Hiestand era" was characterizable by OLine rooms running fairly thin in numbers (you should have about 16 out of 85 scholarships therein), but high-end stars utilizable as intensely worked 5-man units. It was also begun with pretty bad QB passing play, allowing much box stacking and therefore "limping" running success. Bad QB play is not the OLine's fault in these cases, and often protection breakdowns weren't either --- if one watched our pitiful RB allegedly blitz blocking attempts (and even TE blocking some years.)

The gripe against Coach, I felt, was the missing 2015 recruiting year, and the fact that we only got three the next (one of which, Boudreaux, turned into a miss.) That pair of years, adding only two viable OLinemen to the room, was not good recruiting. MAYBE, the fact that he had to get out and really hustle in 2017 contributed to him looking to get away from that aspect of things for awhile. Hopefully, he and Freeman have worked this out if it's even an issue.

Good breakdown OMM. Exactly what I was referring to.

 

[Irish Knuckles]

Hopefully, he and Freeman have worked this out if it's even an issue.

i not 100% sure, but i bet it's safe to assume anyone working under cmf has to put in effort on the recruiting trail.

 

[HouseofPain]

Question...that OL recruit that made the video about pulling the bus, never played a down and transferred out. Did he manage to have a career anywhere?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Parker Boudreaux spent four years at UCF after transferring from Notre Dame prior to the 2017 season. Started at right guard for all 13 games in 2019. Had a concussion issue in 2020 that kept him out.

Turned to Pro Weestling signing a deal with WWE, but was recently released by them.

 

[ulukinatme]

Parker Boudreaux spent four years at UCF after transferring from Notre Dame prior to the 2017 season. Started at right guard for all 13 games in 2019. Had a concussion issue in 2020 that kept him out.

Turned to Pro Weestling signing a deal with WWE, but was recently released by them.

Gotta figure he'll turn up in AEW at some point. JR was big on him I think.

 

[ab2cmiller]

HH must be already impacting rankings. Is this where I am supposed to say screw Jeff Quinn?

This line will succeed and HH will be given all the credit. Far more complicated than that.

 

[BobbyMac]

HH must be already impacting rankings. Is this where I am supposed to say screw Jeff Quinn?

This line will succeed and HH will be given all the credit. Far more complicated than that.

Exactly.

Those two will forever be inseparably connected to ND's OL successes & failures from 2017 till Alt/Fish & the '22's go to the NFL.

 

[Old Man Mike]

One must always be a little surprised by a "best" rating (something I hate anyway as unless you're watching some near-fantastical athlete like Q, you never have enough data points to say "best".) BUT, when you have the Alt/Fish tandem, and Patterson, already noted as one of the nation's OLine stars anchoring the middle (and a proven good veteran in Lugg), how can we not be one of the best at least? It's still the same old story: our RBs are pretty darn good; we just need the QB play to scare the defense enough to let this bunch act like the wrecking balls they are. PLEASE scare the defenses into NOT loading the box!!! Unless you're Q, no one can block two defenders. (Even ZMart, the next best OLineman I've seen for awhile, can only block one.)

 

[Domina Nostra]

As I recall it, the years during HH's tenure when we had a "dominant" OL often felt like let-downs for good chunks of the season. There were slow starts, inexplicable off-days, and bad games against top competition.

Nevertheless, the end-of-the-year statistics and NFL Draft usually indicated that the line was objectively good.

I can't remember a season where the OL was dominant as our imaginations said they should be in. Lower expectations are good.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

As I recall it, the years during HH's tenure when we had a "dominant" OL often felt like let-downs for good chunks of the season. There were slow starts, inexplicable off-days, and bad games against top competition.

Nevertheless, the end-of-the-year statistics and NFL Draft usually indicated that the line was objectively good.

I can't remember a season where the OL was dominant as our imaginations said they should be in. Lower expectations are good.

The 2017 line was pretty ridiculous. Josh Adams averaged 6.9 per carry and Dexter Williams averaged 9.2. As a team they ran for about 270 yards per game.

But I kind of agree with you on the whole.

It's kind of concerning to me that OL recruiting seemed better when ND had no offensive line coach than it has been since HH returned.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The 2017 line was pretty ridiculous. Josh Adams averaged 6.9 per carry and Dexter Williams averaged 9.2. As a team they ran for about 270 yards per game.

But I kind of agree with you on the whole.

It's kind of concerning to me that OL recruiting seemed better when ND had no offensive line coach than it has been since HH returned.

Yup, 2017 was great. But what we remember as "ridiculous" included these rushing stats in our 3 loses:

- 55 yds/1.5 ypc against UGA,
- 109 yds/3.0 ypc against Miami (and it could have been worse),
- 154 yds/3.5 ypc against Stanford

And only 163 yards against Navy in a close game!

 

[Old Man Mike]

... the stats don't only show the OLine at work. I used to analyze those games play-by-play and the breaks were almost always due to bad execution by other elements of the team (plus stacked up opponents.) If everyone would admit that they only watch the fancy boys and then check the stats after the game to gripe about the OLine, OLinemen would catch a lot less grief.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Coach Hiestand had to stack a fairly thin cupboard when he originally came. Fortunately he had his starters and two very young guys to later lean on (NMart and Stanley.) His first full recruiting year added 5 guys, and the next year 4 more. That re-loaded the room. But then he had an almost total miss in the 2015 class (Tillery would have solved some of that had he stayed on offense in the staff's mind, but it is telling that Coach Kelly felt that Coach Hiestand had things under control even with the missing OLine class.) Coach H had Elmer, McGlinchey, Bivin, McGovern, Bars, Mustipher, and Q to mature into a High Quality pair of lines by 2017-8 era, and leave a player like Tillery on Defense. With the miss in 2015 and just the three man class in 2016 (two of which hit big admittedly) we were good on the field and still too thin on the bench. We needed a normal sized class in 2017, and Coach H came through with four decent prospects (Hainsey, Lugg, Banks, and Gibbons.)

The "first Hiestand era" was characterizable by OLine rooms running fairly thin in numbers (you should have about 16 out of 85 scholarships therein), but high-end stars utilizable as intensely worked 5-man units. It was also begun with pretty bad QB passing play, allowing much box stacking and therefore "limping" running success. Bad QB play is not the OLine's fault in these cases, and often protection breakdowns weren't either --- if one watched our pitiful RB allegedly blitz blocking attempts (and even TE blocking some years.)

The gripe against Coach, I felt, was the missing 2015 recruiting year, and the fact that we only got three the next (one of which, Boudreaux, turned into a miss.) That pair of years, adding only two viable OLinemen to the room, was not good recruiting. MAYBE, the fact that he had to get out and really hustle in 2017 contributed to him looking to get away from that aspect of things for awhile. Hopefully, he and Freeman have worked this out if it's even an issue.

Here is what I mean:

1. If you were recruited as an OG you were almost certainly not going to start and probably never play (Harrell, Montelus, McGovern, Byrne, Hoge, Ruhland, Boudreaux, Gibbons). The only kid that was recruited as a true OG that I can remember locking down a full-time gig with HH was Mustipher--and he played C, not OG. HH's OG's were thicker OTs that got slid inside (Elmer, Nelson, Bars, Kramer, Hainsey)
2. If you were one of HH 5- or near 5-star recruits, you were going to sit out a year and then start as a sophomore (Nelson, Bars, Kramer).

That's the way I remember it.


2012 Class (the freshman when Harry arrived):
Stanley: 4 star OT (multi-year starter beginning as Soph)
Harrell: 3 star OG (never really played)

2013 Class:
Biven: 4 star OT (never really played)
Elmer: 4 star OT (started sporadically)
Montelus: 4 star OG (never really played)
McGlincy: 4 star OT (multi-year starter beginning as Soph (last game))
McGovern: 4 star OG (never really played)

2014 Class:
Nelson: 4/5 star OT (multi-year starter beginning as Soph)
Bars: 4 star OT (multi-year starter beginning as Soph)
Mustipher: 4-star OG (multi-year starter beginning as Jr.)
Byrne: 3 star OG (never really played)

2015 Class:
Hoge: 4 star OG (DNP under HH)
Ruhland: 3 star OG (reserve, played some, but not dominant, and no one in the previous 3 classes was apparently better)

2016 Class:
Kramer: 5 star OT (multi-year starter beginning as Soph)
Eichenberg: 4 star OT (played sporadically in 2017)
Boudreaux: 3 star OG (DNP under HH)

2017 Class:
Hainsey: 4 star OT (started 1 game as freshman)
Lugg: 4 star OT (DNP under HH)
Banks: 4 star OT (DNP under HH)
Gibbons: 3 star OG (DNP under HH)

 

[Domina Nostra]

... the stats don't only show the OLine at work. I used to analyze those games play-by-play and the breaks were almost always due to bad execution by other elements of the team (plus stacked up opponents.) If everyone would admit that they only watch the fancy boys and then check the stats after the game to gripe about the OLine, OLinemen would catch a lot less grief.

That is obviously somewhat true and I clearly stated that 2017 was a great line.

But being a dominant line is also about getting tough/important yards in big games. That was not what happened in 2017.

So . . .

1) if we start talking about the 2022 O-line as potentially a dominant line,
2) and we want to compare it to the 2017 line

. . . we should remember that the 2017 line had some games where it was not dominating the line of scrimmage for whatever reason.

It may be as simple as saying, even dominant lines get smacked around sometimes. But I think it is more accurate to say that HH never had a truly dominant O-line like some of the recent Alabama or UGA lines.

 

[ulukinatme]

As I recall it, the years during HH's tenure when we had a "dominant" OL often felt like let-downs for good chunks of the season. There were slow starts, inexplicable off-days, and bad games against top competition.

Nevertheless, the end-of-the-year statistics and NFL Draft usually indicated that the line was objectively good.

I can't remember a season where the OL was dominant as our imaginations said they should be in. Lower expectations are good.

There were a few seasons under HH when we were replacing a lot and it took a bit for them to get their rhythm. It never took half a season like 2021 did under Quinn. Harry was pretty good about making adjustments, at least with passing protections. Running game was hit and miss a few seasons, but some of that could have been on Long and the blocking schemes too. As a former trench dweller I tend to focus more on the big boys like @Old Man Mike. I don't think Quinn was awful, but I never felt like our lines quite lived up to where they were under Harry.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I completely agree with both of you. I just think lots casual fans who focus on the skill talent hear "dominant line" expect to something like 2010 Alabama. When they don't see it, they get frustrated.

 

[CoachB]

I am an O Line coach at in a very successful high school program and I can tell you with 100% certainty that most of the time a running play wasn't successful, it wasn't my lines fault. Either the back went to the wrong hole, or a different back missed their block, the QB made the wrong read, etc. Everyone that doesn't know yells come on line! It looks like our line is getting blown up and then I watch it on film and my line was DOMINATING on those no gains. The casual fan doesn't see this or understand this. A successful running play has way more parts than just the line doing their job.

 

[Old Man Mike]

AMEN!

 

[ulukinatme]

I am an O Line coach at in a very successful high school program and I can tell you with 100% certainty that most of the time a running play wasn't successful, it wasn't my lines fault. Either the back went to the wrong hole, or a different back missed their block, the QB made the wrong read, etc. Everyone that doesn't know yells come on line! It looks like our line is getting blown up and then I watch it on film and my line was DOMINATING on those no gains. The casual fan doesn't see this or understand this. A successful running play has way more parts than just the line doing their job.

You're a good coach, that's a big reason why your high school is successful. There's certainly are a lot of moving parts in the run game. Everyone has to do their job, and even then there are unfortunate circumstances where the right defense was called or other factors like poor field condition come into play. You're absolutely right though, it's not just the OL. It starts with those guys, but sometimes an impatient back will cost you a play, or a late handoff can result in a running lane getting filled.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I find the concerned talk BS. The only point worth founding an opinion upon is that Coach Hiestand wants these guys.
The rest of this is noise to me, probably based upon having nothing better to worry about.

 

[Irish#1]

I find the concerned talk BS. The only point worth founding an opinion upon is that Coach Hiestand wants these guys.
The rest of this is noise to me, probably based upon having nothing better to worry about.

Amen

 

[kenthehobo2]

I find the concerned talk BS. The only point worth founding an opinion upon is that Coach Hiestand wants these guys.
The rest of this is noise to me, probably based upon having nothing better to worry about.

Yep Hiestand doesn’t miss.

Just look at the 2018 class.

 

[NDMatt91]

Yep Hiestand doesn’t miss.

Just look at the 2018 class.

To be fair, apparently Nicholas Petit-Frere was a silent to ND until Harry left.

 

[House16]

I find the concerned talk BS. The only point worth founding an opinion upon is that Coach Hiestand wants these guys.
The rest of this is noise to me, probably based upon having nothing better to worry about.

We have no proof that all of them were Hiestand's #1 choice, though. I always take issue with "coach wanted them" arguments when they might have been the coach's plan C or D option. I'll bet anything you put a gun to Hiestand's head he tells you he preferred Freeling to Paige and Siereveld to Otting.

 

[BobbyMac]

We have no proof that all of them were Hiestand's #1 choice, though. I always take issue with "coach wanted them" arguments when they might have been the coach's plan C or D option. I'll bet anything you put a gun to Hiestand's head he tells you he preferred Freeling to Paige and Siereveld to Otting.

I'll bet anything Harry didn't care which one of Paige or Freeling he landed... if anything, he may have wanted Paige cuz that was his guy and he inherited Freeling from Quinn. If he sees both of these guys as 90+'s, he probably feels he'll turn either/both of them into 10's like he did ZMart, Stanley and McG.

 

[Dale]

I'll bet anything you put a gun to Hiestand's head he tells you he preferred Freeling to Paige and Siereveld to Otting.

Siereveld was a unwinnable recruitment and we still almost won. And I don’t think the trade off was Siereveld to Otting as much as Siereveld to Pendleton, who Florida and Michigan very much wanted and Clemson probably would have pushed more too if they knew they’d get beat on Absher. They thought they had Absher in the bag. HH took over in late Jan and had what 3 months to take a Buckeye kid from OSU? That is a tough likely impossible ask from anyone.