'20 HI LB Jordan Botelho (Notre Dame Signee)

[irishog77]

No and that's the point. We clearly have a disruptive and versatile player that Freeman couldn't get involved. I think the old staff projected this one quite well. I mean, the Elko/Lea Wake Forest model is all about versatility. That's what the Vyper and Rover defenders are. Hybrid players. Freeman just didn't seem to embrace that much last year.

I mean, maybe. I think just as likely though is that perhaps Jordan hasn't been as versatile as believed, and certainly not as productive or impactful playing on the edge and/or in space. I'm not sure he'll be great playing a more traditional role as a LB either. I'm by no means calling him a dud or that he won't ever be able to play at ND. Just that perhaps the old staff projected incorrectly. I think that's certainly as likely as assuming the new staff has been incorrect in their handling of him.

 

[Luckylucci]

The responsibilities any ND OLB needs to play versus a Wisconsin OLB is vastly different. I bumped the thread so as I clearly believe, they need to get more out of Botelho, but comparing to a guy feasting on B1G West offenses versus ND wanting Botelho to be up to speed and properly utilized playing against a vastly spread offense schedule is quite different. I honestly don’t ever expect Botelho to start. I do think he can be an effective sub heavy package SAM and third down pass rusher to take off the Rover or SDE and they should use him ~20 snaps a game.

If he played 20 snaps/game, we're not having this discussion.

 

[Dale]

If he played 20 snaps/game, we're not having this discussion.

He was a COVID Sophomore. I think he can be effective in the 3 more years of eligibility in 20 snaps a game moving forward. This is not the same as thinking he should have gotten significantly more last year. I see potential, but also had some disastrous snaps. I mean he took basically an empty rep on the edge to allow the most important touchdown of the season.

 

[Luckylucci]

I mean, maybe. I think just as likely though is that perhaps Jordan hasn't been as versatile as believed, and certainly not as productive or impactful playing on the edge and/or in space. I'm not sure he'll be great playing a more traditional role as a LB either. I'm by no means calling him a dud or that he won't ever be able to play at ND. Just that perhaps the old staff projected incorrectly. I think that's certainly as likely as assuming the new staff has been incorrect in their handling of him.

I genuinely don't know how someone could look at how much of a disaster the Dollar Package was last year and not be confused as to why Botelho and others didn't get more snaps in those situations. Or abandoned that altogether for different sub packages to fit wider array of players skillsets. I find it for more likely than Freeman fell victim to his own scheme and stopped trying to be creative with his players.

Food for thought, I believe that Bertrand played the second most snaps, last season, than any player in the last 3 seasons. I looked that up at the end of last season and don't have it handy but the number was insane. The fact that Freeman couldn't find more options on the entire roster than Bertrand playing that many snaps is not an indictment on the entire roster that's been winning a lot of games but his ability to be creative or flexible with said players.

Elko/Lea/Elston were very creative with the Front 7 in sub packages. Whether that was stunting, slanting, moving players around, etc. Last year we saw a substantial reduction in all of those things. Okwara and Hayes used to play together. We used to play Kareem, Hayes, and Okwara together. Last season we played 3 DT's together? Foskey played opposite MTA? Kareem used to lineup at 3T and stunt with Tillery at DE. How often was Foskey inside in those packages. There was just a total lack of creativity in sub packages, with the front 7, because we were hell bent on playing the damn Dollar package in a way that Freeman clearly had pre-determined.

 

[Luckylucci]

He was a COVID Sophomore. I think he can be effective in the 3 more years of eligibility in 20 snaps a game moving forward. This is not the same as thinking he should have gotten significantly more last year. I see potential, but also had some disastrous snaps. I mean he took basically an empty rep on the edge to allow the most important touchdown of the season.

So, did Bertrand. He got absolutely abused in our two losses of the season. There were reps to go around that couldn't be much worse for others.

 

[NDdomer2]

Man sure glad we have the HC gig to someone who can't be creative with the roster

 

[Luckylucci]

Man sure glad we have the HC gig to someone who can't be creative with the roster

I was waiting for some insight like this, lol.

I know, I know. Freeman walks on water. I bend the knee to the IE narrative that Freeman is the greatest coach of all time and all mistakes are because of past coaches, players, or the space time continuum.

 

[Dale]

So, did Bertrand. He got absolutely abused in our two losses of the season. There were reps to go around that couldn't be much worse for others.

Okay. I don’t really get that as response on Botelho’s play haha.

You listed all the positives of Botelho and present him as this untapped wasted by scheme talent akin to Nick Herbig. I’m saying I see a light at the end of the tunnel, but am not gonna pretend to ignore that the practice reps you cite weren’t against our awful OL or that competition isn’t vastly different or that he wasn’t given a chance at times and fell flat. Again I started this saying Freeman/Golden need to get more out of him, that much everyone can agree to, but turning this into a spot to rehash the Dollar and your perception of Freeman stubbornness, I don’t see it.

 

[Luckylucci]

You don't get how when you cite Botelho's poor play, at times, when he was in. That someone would counter with how awful Bertrand was at times. Or the effectiveness of the package that didn't allow Botelho to play more?

Botelho could've played more situation football in sub packages. The Dollar defense and how they ran it, effectively nullified those chances. Or he could've been included in the LB rotation to spell Bertrand who need those spells in the worst way. Freeman did neither. He ran Bertrand into the ground, played MTA out of position, and included an extra 2 DT's for good measure. Bertrand played way too many snaps and I believe MTA had 1 sack out wide in the Dollar.

I would've at least liked to see what it looks like if Foskey and Botelho played opposite each other like Hayes and Okwara did versus MTA at 7T/9T and Foskey at LB. Or, Botelho as a MUG LB role in various packages.

With the lack of effectiveness of the Dollar package, I don't see how it's controversial to say as much. It was a trash package for almost all of the season.

 

[Dale]

would've at least liked to see what it looks like if Foskey and Botelho played opposite each other like Hayes and Okwara did versus MTA at 7T/9T and Foskey at LB

They did this. Plenty. It was just with Justin A not Botelho. So you turning this into a Freeman scheme thing doesn’t make sense.

Also he could have just played WILL? You don’t just teach someone to play WILL mid season. Maybe part of getting more out of him is moving to WILL? That’d be interesting, but had they moved him there pre-season, he’d have been even more buried. Roping in Bertrand is the ultimate hindsight argument, the WILL depth chart was Marist - Simon - Bertrand pre-season.

 

[irishog77]

I genuinely don't know how someone could look at how much of a disaster the Dollar Package was last year and not be confused as to why Botelho and others didn't get more snaps in those situations. Or abandoned that altogether for different sub packages to fit wider array of players skillsets. I find it for more likely than Freeman fell victim to his own scheme and stopped trying to be creative with his players.

Food for thought, I believe that Bertrand played the second most snaps, last season, than any player in the last 3 seasons. I looked that up at the end of last season and don't have it handy but the number was insane. The fact that Freeman couldn't find more options on the entire roster than Bertrand playing that many snaps is not an indictment on the entire roster that's been winning a lot of games but his ability to be creative or flexible with said players.

Elko/Lea/Elston were very creative with the Front 7 in sub packages. Whether that was stunting, slanting, moving players around, etc. Last year we saw a substantial reduction in all of those things. Okwara and Hayes used to play together. We used to play Kareem, Hayes, and Okwara together. Last season we played 3 DT's together? Foskey played opposite MTA? Kareem used to lineup at 3T and stunt with Tillery at DE. How often was Foskey inside in those packages. There was just a total lack of creativity in sub packages, with the front 7, because we were hell bent on playing the damn Dollar package in a way that Freeman clearly had pre-determined.

You obviously have some very strong opinions about Jordan Botelho, Lucky!

No argument from me whatsoever about the 3 DL results nor about many of the sub packages. Going even further than you, most of the 2nd half defense for the entire year was bewildering to me (granted, Elko/Lea were masters of in-game adjustments and we had been spoiled the past few years).

But JB isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. And if everything you've been arguing is even close to true, then the kid really should transfer to another school with another staff. And for all the talk about how the staff last season was wrong and your dissection of their calls , it still doesn't mean Jordan is just some misunderstood monster that we need to see properly uncaged.

I'm signing off with the JB talk for now because all I did was propose the thought that maybe he was misjudged as a recruit (which is frequent with all staffs throughout the country and at all levels of football), and give a suggestive hint that perhaps Jordan maybe simply isn't as good of a player that some hope he will be.

 

[Luckylucci]

They did this. Plenty. It was just with Justin A not Botelho. So you turning this into a Freeman scheme thing doesn’t make sense.

Also he could have just played WILL? You don’t just teach someone to play WILL mid season. Maybe part of getting more out of him is moving to WILL? That’d be interesting, but had they moved him there pre-season, he’d have been even more buried. Roping in Bertrand is the ultimate hindsight argument, the WILL depth chart was Marist - Simon - Bertrand pre-season.

First of all, he literally played ILB in HS. So, neither one of know to what extent he understands the position is but it’s not zero. Secondly, this is the whole point. You do not need to teach a guy to play WILL for 60 snaps. You need to put him at WILL when the WILL is being asked to do what his skillset can handle. You could most certainly spend a Spring/Summer/Fall season getting Botelho up to task on blitzing from ILB, as an example. Bertrand being singled out is because it would have duel benefit. Bertrand is a good football player who played too much. The more rest he gets, the more effective he is at what he does best. And, maybe we get more from other guys like Botelho.

 

[NDdomer2]

I was waiting for some insight like this, lol.

I know, I know. Freeman walks on water. I bend the knee to the IE narrative that Freeman is the greatest coach of all time and all mistakes are because of past coaches, players, or the space time continuum.

I actually don't think he walks on water or any of the sort and I still think hes more likely to fail or match BK vs exceed.

But, if we're saying he's clueless about fitting a versatile player to his defense, it likely doesn't bode well for being in charge of a whole roster.

However, like all things fandom, were making assumptions from a million miles away and don't know all the variables nor evaluate their film daily.

So I think the truth usually lies in the middle. Bothello likely didn't EARN more time, AND, he may have not been utilized to the best of his abilities.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I was waiting for some insight like this, lol.

I know, I know. Freeman walks on water. I bend the knee to the IE narrative that Freeman is the greatest coach of all time and all mistakes are because of past coaches, players, or the space time continuum.

At least until he's lost a game, than all is fair

 

[Irish#1]

Could his lack of snaps be due to how he practices?

 

[Dale]

ND finally got him on the field and he produced.

Golden showed a bit of 2 - 4 - 5 with him or JR at Vyper opposite Foskey/Justin A that worked. He also was also out there at the very end just roaming around the middle as Justin A and Foskey were the DEs, similar to the Cheetah package Alabama has gotten publicity for. I think they liked it to rush the passer and keep contain on scramble.

 

[dublinirish]

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Definitely impressive considering how little playing time he really received. I think he could be special next year. Hard to replace an Isiah Foskey but hopefully he can soften the blow of his loss a bit.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Scary bump is scary

 

[notredomer23]

Botelho played 126 snaps on the season. If he played 504 snaps (Foskey played 563 but feel like doing easy math), he would have had 18 sacks and 26 TFLs.

Obviously that's not a realistic pace, but maybe a double digit sack year isn't all that unrealistic.

 

[dublinirish]

he should be a SWAT team captain during winter workouts. Staff needs to push him as a team leader and he can raise his game/snap count again in 2023

 

[Bluto]

From what I recall, Bothelo’s issue in terms of seeing more playing time has been his ability to set the edge against the run particularly when it comes to taking on a tackle one on one.

I remember seeing on more than a couple occasions where he got blown off the line and ended up a couple yards downfield when other teams ran straight at him.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

And for every snap he gets, I feel like we're toeing the line of a personal foul call.

Dude is a wrecking ball composed of intensity and anger.

 

[dublinirish]

From what I recall, Bothelo’s issue in terms of seeing more playing time has been his ability to set the edge against the run particularly when it comes to taking on a tackle one on one.

I remember seeing on more than a couple occasions where he got blown off the line and ended up a couple yards downfield when other teams ran straight at him.

yeah he wasn't great versus run in marshall game i remember that

 

[stpeteirish]

Being second on the team in sacks with 4.5 is pretty big indictment of everyone else on the slime except Foskey

 

[Crazy Balki]

yeah he wasn't great versus run in marshall game i remember that

To be fair to him, who was in that game?

 

[Irishnuke]

Being second on the team in sacks with 4.5 is pretty big indictment of everyone else on the slime except Foskey

 

[dublinirish]

 

[rtrn2glory]

hoping he has a breakout year.

 

[Irish du Nord]

hoping he has a breakout year.

Hard to think of a more important guy to have a breakout year… maybe X Watts? Rubio? Mills?