Offensive Line Thread

[ulukinatme]

HARD pass.

Hiestand is a big part of why we're in this mess in the first place. That disaster of a 2018 OL class was his doing. Those are the veterans of this OL group and as of now, none of the guys Hiestand recruited are even in the 2-deep (Patterson was recruited and committed to Quinn).

One bad season of recruiting on the eve he was leaving does not make a bad coach. The guy has a tremendous track record outside of that, and he's easily one of the best OL coaches that's been in the college game the last 10 years. I don't care if a couple transfer players didn't like his style, the successful guys often swore by him. We've had a lot of OL talent get drafted over the years, but when was the last time they've been as dominant as the guys that Harry coached? We've got something like 5 or 6 NFL starters and some of them are arguably the best at their positions, not to mention a handful of others at 2nd string.

 

[Irish#1]

I would welcome Harry back in a heartbeat. If you can't handle a demanding coach that wants you to play your best, you probably should be playing in the AAC or MAC, or better yet not playing football.

 

[Sea Turtle]

I would welcome Harry back in a heartbeat. If you can't handle a demanding coach that wants you to play your best, you probably should be playing in the AAC or MAC, or better yet not playing football.

Can you imagine those kids who complained and wrote journals playing for Saban? They'd be crying and crawling home to mom.

 

[Trait Expectations]

I would welcome Harry back in a heartbeat. If you can't handle a demanding coach that wants you to play your best, you probably should be playing in the AAC or MAC, or better yet not playing football.

Yeah, Liam Eichenberg was a total bust.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah, Liam Eichenberg was a total bust.

No, but Histan Troge largely has been.

 

[IrishLax]

One bad season of recruiting on the eve he was leaving does not make a bad coach. The guy has a tremendous track record outside of that, and he's easily one of the best OL coaches that's been in the college game the last 10 years. I don't care if a couple transfer players didn't like his style, the successful guys often swore by him. We've had a lot of OL talent get drafted over the years, but when was the last time they've been as dominant as the guys that Harry coached? We've got something like 5 or 6 NFL starters and some of them are arguably the best at their positions, not to mention a handful of others at 2nd string.

I generally agree with this.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

HARD pass.

Hiestand is a big part of why we're in this mess in the first place. That disaster of a 2018 OL class was his doing. Those are the veterans of this OL group and as of now, none of the guys Hiestand recruited are even in the 2-deep (Patterson was recruited and committed to Quinn).

This is really dumb. Heistand is regarded as one of the best Oline coaches in the country.

 

[NDRock]

Can you imagine those kids who complained and wrote journals playing for Saban? They'd be crying and crawling home to mom.

Hard to imagine many Alabama kids capable of keeping a journal.

 

[Luckylucci]

Watch: Watch: Brian Kelly on Jeff Quinn and Scrutiny of The Offensive Line (247sports.com)

Kelly's comments on the OL situation from today.

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm usually a pretty optimistic fan that tends to see the glass as half full. But, this continues to have a bizarre feel to it.

The right side "has been assignment correct", is the public message we get on Lugg and Madden. So, they're attempting to block the right guys. Doing a miserable job at it but no mention of that. That's the standard, for OLU?

I would think the language should be a little stronger, not going to sugarcoat it. Talk of standards but if there were truly standards and these are not them, then we should be finding players that, at the very least, will eventually reach that standard. This is a sad state of affairs.

Winning covers up a lot of ugly and that's my concern. In 2015, winning covered up how toxic the defense really was. Which they experienced in 2016. I think this OL is a complete disaster that's being covered up by a stifling defense (of late) and an incredible group of playmakers for this year. Just saying there is a standard doesn't do it justice. You need to have those standards and hold the accountability during good years to make sure the bad years never happen. This ain't that.

I love the young talent but I also loved the idea of a 5th year Lugg. Felt like of course they knew what they had in Madden. The 2019 class was Quinn's foundation. And he found the future in Baker/Carmody. There is a lot going wrong here.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Hard to imagine many Alabama kids capable of keeping a journal.

I dislike Alabama as much as anyone but I 'm not sure that's as embarrassing as keeping a journal about 'coach meanie' to discuss and to get validation from the girls in their classes.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I'm usually a pretty optimistic fan that tends to see the glass as half full. But, this continues to have a bizarre feel to it.

The right side "has been assignment correct", is the public message we get on Lugg and Madden. So, they're attempting to block the right guys. Doing a miserable job at it but no mention of that. That's the standard, for OLU?

I would think the language should be a little stronger, not going to sugarcoat it. Talk of standards but if there were truly standards and these are not them, then we should be finding players that, at the very least, will eventually reach that standard. This is a sad state of affairs.

Winning covers up a lot of ugly and that's my concern. In 2015, winning covered up how toxic the defense really was. Which they experienced in 2016. I think this OL is a complete disaster that's being covered up by a stifling defense (of late) and an incredible group of playmakers for this year. Just saying there is a standard doesn't do it justice. You need to have those standards and hold the accountability during good years to make sure the bad years never happen. This ain't that.

I love the young talent but I also loved the idea of a 5th year Lugg. Felt like of course they knew what they had in Madden. The 2019 class was Quinn's foundation. And he found the future in Baker/Carmody. There is a lot going wrong here.

I think I have been consistently critical of Quinn and people can go back on my pattern of posting on that. I think the concern you and everyone else has is valid. One thing I do often think about though is how important having that one dominating player is for the OL. Going all the way back to Kelly's first year, there has been a cornerstone that you plan your OL around (Zach Martin, Stanley, Nick Martin, Chris Watt, Trevor Robinson, Q, big Mike, Banks, Liam, and I am sure I have missed some). It would be great to know you have one tackle that you know will pick up the pass pro cleanly nearly every time. I truly wonder if Patterson would have been healthy and could have had a spring and fall camp at LT, if he could have been that person. But there is nobody that can be counted on at the moment and that makes it incredibly difficult to scheme around. Hopefully Rocco and Fisher can turn into that for next year. That would make Baker and Carmody look infinitely better IMO.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

The OL struggles this year are real but I think that they will still continue to improve this year. I also think the struggles they are having this year will end up being beneficial for next year (and beyond) when the core group will have more game experience, continuity playing as a unit and able to build more strength. Lugg, Patterson and Madden should all be gone (I didn’t double check their eligibilities) but the players that are getting experience now and waiting in the wings are going to be an improvement. Just my $.02 that no one asked for

 

[IrishLax]

I think losing Blake Fisher was absolutely huge. He should not only be getting important development, I think his level of play would be light years ahead of the guys currently playing LT.

I have no excuses to make for Correll who struggled mightily at center last year and is struggling at guard this year. I have no optimism for his future and I really hope I’m wrong.

I think next year’s line with Fisher, Alt, Spindler and two question marks will show noticeable improvement but will still be young and have some issues with consistency. I’m most worried about Center for next year. I think you will get one of Kristofic, Baker, Carmody, or maybe even Chan to come in and play well there. But we’re probably 2 years away from having the closest thing ND has had to a super team.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I think losing Blake Fisher was absolutely huge. He should not only be getting important development, I think his level of play would be light years ahead of the guys currently playing LT.

I have no excuses to make for Correll who struggled mightily at center last year and is struggling at guard this year. I have no optimism for his future and I really hope I’m wrong.

I think next year’s line with Fisher, Alt, Spindler and two question marks will show noticeable improvement but will still be young and have some issues with consistency. I’m most worried about Center for next year. I think you will get one of Kristofic, Baker, Carmody, or maybe even Chan to come in and play well there. But we’re probably 2 years away from having the closest thing ND has had to a super team.

You know, you're the only one I've actually seen say this. I could have sworn ISD was high on his play, particularly against Alabama.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Yeah, I don’t remember Correll standing out in a bad way. But maybe I had a low bar after watching Lugg take a turn there.

 

[IrishLax]

You know, you're the only one I've actually seen say this. I could have sworn ISD was high on his play, particularly against Alabama.

Maybe I’m way wrong, I just remember the drop off at center after Patterson got hurt was huge.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Maybe I’m way wrong, I just remember the drop off at center after Patterson got hurt was huge.

I can't remember Zeke's first game, was it Cuse? Lugg was the guy getting demolished by Clemson in the ACC champ game.

 

[greyhammer90]

I can't remember Zeke's first game, was it Cuse? Lugg was the guy getting demolished by Clemson in the ACC champ game.

Somebody on the OL played their first game against North Carolina last year because Herbstreit wouldn't shut up about it. It was his pet storyline of the night.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Somebody on the OL played their first game against North Carolina last year because Herbstreit wouldn't shut up about it. It was his pet storyline of the night.

I thought UNC was the game where Patterson hurt his foot? My memory is a little shaky due to the beer I drank from the Clemson win, but I thought Patterson played 1 more game, broke his foot in it. Correll started 1 game looking fine, then Lugg was in for 2 and looked bad. Correll then came back for Bama and held his own.

 

[ulukinatme]

I think I have been consistently critical of Quinn and people can go back on my pattern of posting on that. I think the concern you and everyone else has is valid. One thing I do often think about though is how important having that one dominating player is for the OL. Going all the way back to Kelly's first year, there has been a cornerstone that you plan your OL around (Zach Martin, Stanley, Nick Martin, Chris Watt, Trevor Robinson, Q, big Mike, Banks, Liam, and I am sure I have missed some). It would be great to know you have one tackle that you know will pick up the pass pro cleanly nearly every time. I truly wonder if Patterson would have been healthy and could have had a spring and fall camp at LT, if he could have been that person. But there is nobody that can be counted on at the moment and that makes it incredibly difficult to scheme around. Hopefully Rocco and Fisher can turn into that for next year. That would make Baker and Carmody look infinitely better IMO.

I'm with you. This is not the first time Quinn has struggled to put together a cohesive unit since Harry departed. There was another year the OL was pretty bad out of the gate with fresh faces and it took time for them to gel. I hope this line eventually gels...but losing Big Fish definitely hurt. Kid was such a beast for a freshman, just had some nasty intensity like Q did coming in.

 

[T-Boone]

Maybe Zach Rice needs to rethink whether he could start at ND next year and also the fact NC are worse than he thought.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I'm with you. This is not the first time Quinn has struggled to put together a cohesive unit since Harry departed. There was another year the OL was pretty bad out of the gate with fresh faces and it took time for them to gel. I hope this line eventually gels...but losing Big Fish definitely hurt. Kid was such a beast for a freshman, just had some nasty intensity like Q did coming in.

We act like Hiestand didn't have some underwhelming units.

2012 started out pretty lackluster.
2014 was rather average.
2016, despite having immense talent, was pedestrian.

 

[NDohio]

I thought UNC was the game where Patterson hurt his foot? My memory is a little shaky due to the beer I drank from the Clemson win, but I thought Patterson played 1 more game, broke his foot in it. Correll started 1 game looking fine, then Lugg was in for 2 and looked bad. Correll then came back for Bama and held his own.

This is correct. He played extremely well against UNC and did fairly well against 'Bama. He will be fine as the starting center next year.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

We act like Hiestand didn't have some underwhelming units.

2012 started out pretty lackluster.
2014 was rather average.
2016, despite having immense talent, was pedestrian.

Heistand got a promotion to the NFL, even though it didn't end well. If BK fired Quinn at season end, who do you think would be lining up to hire him for their Oline job?

 

[Trait Expectations]

Maybe Zach Rice needs to rethink whether he could start at ND next year and also the fact NC are worse than he thought.

Lol, he's not starting as a true frosh. Next year our line will be a lot better, maybe just average compared to our historical great lines but they'll be a lot better. If Fisher was healthy with Kristofic at guard and Carmody at RT, it'd be a huge improvement.

Ultimately, center will be our biggest concern next year. The line will be: Fisher, Kristofic, someone (maybe Correll?), Carmody, Alt

That's assuming Spindler doesn't make a big jump in his 2nd year in the program. Boom, mark it down.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Maybe I’m way wrong, I just remember the drop off at center after Patterson got hurt was huge.

There was a huge dropoff, but it wasn't when Correll replaced Patterson.

Patterson got hurt against BC. Then Correll took over in the UNC game and was very good. There was a drop off, as you can expect, but he was still quite good.

The massive dropoff happened when Correll got hurt and Lugg took over at Center for the Syracuse and Clemson games. Lugg was horrible at center.

Correll came back for Alabama and was quite solid against a very good defensive front.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Heistand got a promotion to the NFL, even though it didn't end well. If BK fired Quinn at season end, who do you think would be lining up to hire him for their Oline job?

Based on everything I read, Hiestand wasn't coming back in 2018 and if the job opened back up, he wouldn't be considered.

Hiestand was previously with the Bears under Lovie Smith.

But he's been out of a job for a few years now. If he was the commodity some claim he is, he'd be coaching right now.

Hiestand had his great moments, but it was painfully apparent that he didn't like recruiting and his indifference to it put us in a terrible position with a bad 2018 class. The class that now comprises the senior leadership of this OL unit, or lack thereof.

 

[ulukinatme]

We act like Hiestand didn't have some underwhelming units.

2012 started out pretty lackluster.
2014 was rather average.
2016, despite having immense talent, was pedestrian.

Pretty sure none of these units were next to last in the country in sacks given up though, not even close. Pass blocking was something Harry excelled with. I thought the run blocking was subpar at times, as we witnessed during that awful 2016 season, but pass blocking was always pretty decent to superior.

 

[irishff1014]

Heistand got a promotion to the NFL, even though it didn't end well. If BK fired Quinn at season end, who do you think would be lining up to hire him for their Oline job?

I don’t think it will happen but I do believe that the O-line coach position needs to be looked at to up grade. Even if he Kelly doesn’t hire anyone he needs to have his eyes open. I do understand that we have had some injuries but we should be better than this with the talent in the team. Or the staff needs to be better at evaluating talent.