2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Irish#1]

This is just an amazing article. Confirms my worst fears about Trump. There is no deeper, private Trump.

The most disturbing thing to me is the inability to focus on anything for more than an hour at a time, even on a book about himself. There is just no way this guy has the frame of reference to be a competent political executive, when he doesn't have the patience to do his homework.

I try to be realistic about the fact that not everybody is a reader, and that's ok:

But this guy seems to have deeper problems with concentration. That seems like a problem for a president.

One could say this will be a benefit and allow him to get more done. He addresses an issue, hands it off to one of his chiefs of staffs and moves onto the next item on the agenda. In reality, I wonder how much time any president really spends on most issues before handing it off?

 

[dublinirish]

While I don't agree with the bold, the second statement isn't bad. I've heard it from my own grandparents who were direct immigrants in the early 1900's and from other immigrants. They were very proud of their heritage but now that they were in America, they wanted to become Americans by learning and celebrating American customs which included learning the English language.

also they were faced with xenophobia and discrimination. hence the reasons why italian immigrants (and others) turned their backs on soccer and instead started going to Yankees and Dodgers games in NY even though they had no idea of the rules of the sport. They just wanted to be assimilated so they could survive discrimination.

 

[EddytoNow]

Lou Holtz's comments are an embarrassment to the university. I used to respect Lou, because I thought he showed great respect for others. His comments demonstrate that he, in fact, does not respect those culturally different than himself. Lou's life has been blessed with good fortune. It's too bad he's lost touch with his immigrant roots.

 

[wizards8507]

Lou Holtz's comments are an embarrassment to the university. I used to respect Lou, because I thought he showed great respect for others. His comments demonstrate that he, in fact, does not respect those culturally different than himself. Lou's life has been blessed with good fortune. It's too bad he's lost touch with his immigrant roots.

Do you celebrate Yom Kippur, Ramadan, and Maha Shivaratri? Do you cheer for the Mexican national soccer team? I'd guess the answer is "no" to all of those, meaning you agree with Lou by your actions.

Plus, if someone DID want to celebrate all of those things, the same idiots would be shouting "cultural appropriation!"

 

[IrishLax]

Do you celebrate Yom Kippur, Ramadan, and Maha Shivaratri? Do you cheer for the Mexican national soccer team? I'd guess the answer is "no" to all of those, meaning you agree with Lou by your actions.

Plus, if someone DID want to celebrate all of those things, the same idiots would be shouting "cultural appropriation!"

Wizard wins, Eddy loses. This situation is cut and dry. It's actually offensive as hell when white people in this country get blasted for Cinco de Mayo... so any progressive should certainly agree with what Lou said about celebrating holidays.

And then why would you cheer for the Mexican soccer team, etc.?

The only reason this is "offensive" is because he said it at the RNC so the sheeps of the world will twist it into being "hateful."

 

[dublinirish]

Do you celebrate Yom Kippur, Ramadan, and Maha Shivaratri? Do you cheer for the Mexican national soccer team? I'd guess the answer is "no" to all of those, meaning you agree with Lou by your actions.

Plus, if someone DID want to celebrate all of those things, the same idiots would be shouting "cultural appropriation!"

y'all cant celebrate Paddy's Day now then?

 

[wizards8507]

y'all cant celebrate Paddy's Day now then?

I went to Notre Dame so I'm 100% Irish.

FWIW, the old mill towns in interior New England are almost all white but still developed as culturally distinct immigrant communities. My hometown had the "French church," the "Portuguese church," the "Italian church," and the "Irish church." During various feast days, home parishes would host the community and share their food, music, and heritage. This is the way to combine heritage and assimilation without cultural appropriation and modern multiculturalism. The biggest problem with modern multiculturalism is that there's no notion of "American culture" anymore, because it has become equivocated with "white culture," and been deemed racist. It's possible to maintain ethnic heritage while assimilating to American culture.

 

[zelezo vlk]

y'all cant celebrate Paddy's Day now then?

I'm fine without it.

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[dublinirish]

I'm fine without it.

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what about "immigrant" food like hamburgers and fries? Are these off the table now for real Americans?

 

[wizards8507]

what about "immigrant" food like hamburgers and fries? Are these off the table now for real Americans?

I don't think you understand the idea of the "melting pot."

From one of my favorite movies, "That Thing You Do": I've found that a hit record is like a stew. All the ingredients have to cook together just right, otherwise it's just soup.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I don't think you understand the idea of the "melting pot."

Pretty sure it's referred to as a "salad" now.

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[tussin]

For better or worse, St. Patty's has taken on a modern cultural significance that is completely separate from it's traditional role as a celebration of Irish culture.

 

[dublinirish]

I don't think you understand the idea of the "melting pot."

From one of my favorite movies, "That Thing You Do": I've found that a hit record is like a stew. All the ingredients have to cook together just right, otherwise it's just soup.

so it's ok to pick and choose what parts of "immigrant" culture you want to adopt?

Falafel = good, Quran = bad?

 

[woolybug25]

For better or worse, St. Patty's has taken on a modern cultural significance that is completely separate from it's traditional role as a celebration of Irish culture.

It's about the beers and the wimminz.

 

[connor_in]

also they were faced with xenophobia and discrimination. hence the reasons why italian immigrants (and others) turned their backs on soccer and instead started going to Yankees and Dodgers games in NY even though they had no idea of the rules of the sport. They just wanted to be assimilated so they could survive discrimination.

Wait...so the only reason immigrants in all of US history assimilated was because otherwise they would be discriminated against?

 

[wizards8507]

so it's ok to pick and choose what parts of "immigrant" culture you want to adopt?

Falafel = good, Quran = bad?

Nobody picks and chooses, it just happens organically. Nobody has a problem with Mexican* immigrants coming to the country and blending Mexican culture with American culture. The problem is when Mexican immigrants come into the country illegally demanding all of the rights and privileges of citizenship without assimilating at all.

It's the difference between a Mexican-American and a Mexican who happens to live in America.

*Mexico picked for illustrative purposes only. Also applies to any other immigrating group.

 

[dublinirish]

Nobody picks and chooses, it just happens organically. Nobody has a problem with Mexican* immigrants coming to the country and blending Mexican culture with American culture. The problem is when Mexican immigrants come into the country illegally demanding all of the rights and privileges of citizenship without assimilating at all.

It's the difference between a Mexican-American and a Mexican who happens to live in America.

*Mexico picked for illustrative purposes only. Also applies to any other immigrating group.

as long as they don't speak spanish though right?

 

[wizards8507]

as long as they don't speak spanish though right?

They can speak Spanish, Greek, Latin, or fucking Klingon for all I care as long as they also learn English.

 

[pumpdog20]

They can speak spanish all they want, they just can't demand that the country start speaking spanish or go to public spanish schools. It would be up to individual people and companies to want to cater to that demographic.

I think it's actually good now in that regard. Sure you have outliers who want you to assimilate to their wants, but the norm of immigrants (legal and illegal) are going to eventually be a willing part of the American culture while also keeping some of from their homeland.

 

[irishfan]

as long as they don't speak spanish though right?

Did you read his next two sentences.....his whole point was he doesn't care as long as they assimilate.

 

[irishroo]

"We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remain such."

- Teddy Roosevelt

 

[wizards8507]

I think it's actually good now in that regard. Sure you have outliers who want you to assimilate to their wants, but the norm of immigrants (legal and illegal) are going to eventually be a willing part of the American culture while also keeping some of from their homeland.

The problem is that the speed of immigration is outpacing the speed of assimilation. Immigration can come in three ways.

1. Slow and steady
2. Rapid bursts, with lulls in between
3. Rapid and steady

Historically, the first two patterns have been successful ways to bring in new people while also maintaining a sense of national identity and American culture. We're currently in the third pattern, which is unsustainable in the long term.

The other thing to remember is that, in the digital economy, importing low-skilled workers is nowhere near as beneficial to the country as it was in the industrial or service economies. We're entering a very real future where blue collar work is hard to find just for the population we have here, let alone an imported underclass.

 

[ACamp1900]

When do immigrants ask you to become one of them? Or to celebrate their holidays? or to cheer on their soccer teams?

Ha, I'm starting to think that story of you living in Cali at one point was a bunch of BS...

 

[pkt77242]

Do you celebrate Yom Kippur, Ramadan, and Maha Shivaratri? Do you cheer for the Mexican national soccer team? I'd guess the answer is "no" to all of those, meaning you agree with Lou by your actions.

Plus, if someone DID want to celebrate all of those things, the same idiots would be shouting "cultural appropriation!"

Huh?

Lou's comments seemed to be saying that immigants wanted us to speak their language, celebrate their holidays, roots for their teams, etc. and most of that is just plain false (the only one with some truth is the language) and seems like fear mongering to me.


*Now maybe I am misunderstanding his comments if so please explain.

 

[Wild Bill]

also they were faced with xenophobia and discrimination. hence the reasons why italian immigrants (and others) turned their backs on soccer and instead started going to Yankees and Dodgers games in NY even though they had no idea of the rules of the sport. They just wanted to be assimilated so they could survive discrimination.

We were never systemically discriminated against by Americans or forced to assimilate b/c of discrimination or the threat of discrimination. We were encouraged to embrace American culture, sport and language b/c we intended to be Americans (naturalized not natural born). English was stressed b/c success without command of the English language is near impossible. We assimilated and spoke English b/c we were self interested. It was not due to discrimination. That's just my experience, of course.

so it's ok to pick and choose what parts of "immigrant" culture you want to adopt?

Falafel = good, Quran = bad?

Yes. The immigrants are choosing what parts of the host country they want to adopt so why wouldn't it be fair for the host country to do the same?

By migrating here, my family chose to accept American values like capitalism. In doing so, they rejected communism. It's important to recognize some cultures or some aspects of cultures are better than others.

 

[kmoose]

In the words of Bogs, the words of Lou Holtz have soured me (on Lou.) I have had a bad day anyway, but hearing Lou's bootlicking anti-immigrant comments have made it clear that he is no longer the high-character hero that he once was.

I will not take down his quotes, or get rid of his memorabilia, but I will never hold in in any regard again. What a shame.

Lou Holtz's comments are an embarrassment to the university. I used to respect Lou, because I thought he showed great respect for others. His comments demonstrate that he, in fact, does not respect those culturally different than himself. Lou's life has been blessed with good fortune. It's too bad he's lost touch with his immigrant roots.

How about we wait to see the actual transcripts of what he said, instead of the cherry picked quotes that could very well be more yellow journalism, before we condemn an old man who has done more for disadvantaged folks than probably the entirety of this board has? If you respect(ed) him as much as you say you do(did), then you owe him at least that much...

 

[IrishLax]

Huh?

Lou's comments seemed to be saying that immigants wanted us to speak their language, celebrate their holidays, roots for their teams, etc. and most of that is just plain false (the only one with some truth is the language) and seems like fear mongering to me.


*Now maybe I am misunderstanding his comments if so please explain.

I don't think his comment says that at all.

I think he was saying that people should be comfortable and proud in being "American", and that "respecting other cultures" shouldn't mean having to abandon our own traditions (see: this year's social media attack on the 4th of July, the effective abolition of Columbus Day, etc.). And that it's important to have pride in being an American, as so many generations of immigrants have in the past.

When he says he "doesn't want to celebrate their holidays" that can be taken as 1) anti-cultural appropriation or 2) a pro-assimilation stance. When he says he "doesn't want to root for their soccer teams" that can simply be taken at face value.

But I did not see him say that they (immigrants) want us to change our language, holidays, or root for their teams.

 

[IrishLax]

How about we wait to see the actual transcripts of what he said, instead of the cherry picked quotes that could very well be more yellow journalism, before we condemn an old man who has done more for disadvantaged folks than probably the entirety of this board has? If you respect(ed) him as much as you say you do(did), then you owe him at least that much...

The clownish over-reaction from some progressives on here to a few cherry picked, open-to-interpretation quotes is utterly disappointing. The truth is we have no idea the context of anything he said... nor are the quotes even vetted for accuracy.

 

[GATTACA!]

"We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state. We welcome the German and the Irishman who becomes an American. We have no use for the German or Irishman who remain such."

- Teddy Roosevelt

But German and Irish immigrants are all white so this isn't racist.

 

[phgreek]

One could say this will be a benefit and allow him to get more done. He addresses an issue, hands it off to one of his chiefs of staffs and moves onto the next item on the agenda. In reality, I wonder how much time any president really spends on most issues before handing it off?

Right...which is why someone with a high IQ, but who is functionally ADD can Lead...BUT, you need a chief of staff functioning beyond the normal role....one that can force every decision to be considered through the lens of policy/consistency...or it is a free for all. Normally the role of the chief of staff stops short of what is needed here. But gotta have someone that controls schedule, access, oversees status of initiatives, and has visibility to monitor all cabinet goings on.

I would argue THE most consequential position in a Trump Admin is the chief of staff...and Trump has to defer to them religiously...will he? The only one that could do that job ... I think is Newt. But why would he take that Job?