Dallas Police Shooting

gkIrish

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CNN's Don Lemon and Wisconsin Sheriff David Clarke got into it tonight on Lemon's program over BLM and it's claims of police abuse. Lemon was addressing the conciliatory/let's work together attitude that so many had leaders were stating in the media. He asked Clarke what message he would like to add.

Clarke was quite for a moment that said, "You don't beleive that, do you?" Lemon surprised responded, "Yes." Clarked asked Lemon if there had been any riots or protests today over the killing of cops in Baton Rouge and Dallas. Lemon said he didn't follow. The others had a message of peace what message did Clark have. Clark said that hate filled message of BLM had started two years ago and that he (Clarke) had predicated the problems that developed from that hate message.

Clarke stressed that the killing/war on police has to stop. Lemon tried to talk him into a conciliatory message but Clarke wasn't biting. He again was quite for a moment, then looked directly at Lemon with his jaw set. In firm tone of voice Clarke noted that BLM was built on a lie and had been since Ferguson with the now disproved "Hands Up. Don't Shoot" slogan.

Lemon asked how Clarke could deny the statistics that show widespread police abuse. Clarke challenged those statistics. Lemon asked him how he could deny those stats. Clarke claimed the stats were not well defined as to the circumstances of arrests, etc. When Lemon again took up the police abuse gauntlet, Clarke turned the tables and challenged Lemon to prove that there was a pattern of nationwide abuse. Lemon hemmed that this was a national show and he was a professional and didn't have to justify himself and he wasn't going to argue with Clarke. Lemon called for a commercial break and the screen faded to black.

I found Lemon's dodge interesting as about a half hour earlier I had watched him and a 3 member panel discussing conciliation and police/community interaction. One of the panel members former NYC Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik took issue with Lemon over "facts" Lemon referred to generally but never stated. Kerik strongly disagreed with Lemon. Lemon took the same I'm a professional journalist tact with Kerik.

With Kerik it worked, he backed down. Clarke didn't.

Wisconsin sheriff on recent shootings: I predicted this - CNN Video

Sheriff Clarke is a beacon of hope. He is the type of person that should be the Time Magazine Person of the Year.

You want to get rid of racism of any kind in this country, look no further than Sheriff Clarke.
 

NDRock

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It's somewhat interesting that the last two cop killers were ex-military. I'm not up to speed on their service records but I wonder how much us being at war for the last 15 years plays into some of this violence. We certainly have a lot of people in this country who have trained and served during wartime. I'm sure many have PTSD (not excusing the actions of the last couple tragedies). I just wonder how possible it is for our nation to have a peaceful homefront when we are constantly at war.

I'm not arguing whether these wars are needed or just, only whether there is any correlation.
 

Blazers46

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We live in a world where literally every time a black person dies at the hands of a white cop it's directly attributed to "evil racist white cops out to intentionally murder black people"...

...and then when black people (who are avowed BLM supporters) go out and murder police officers in cold blood it's blamed on "white supremacy" not the hate group and racists who foster these attitudes.

After the Dallas shooting I got the sense that media and others were not only blaming white supremacy but it also had this Kumbaya feeling where some of the BLM members came to the aid of police officers and overall awkward feeling of love and unity. I remember my wife saying "7 Dallas officers get killed and now everyone wants to hold hands, that's a little backward isn't it?" Basically saying they get shot its racism, police get shot and its "I am so sorry this happened and I am here for you but...."

I have been too busy to watch or read much about the recent shooting.
 

Blazers46

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It's somewhat interesting that the last two cop killers were ex-military. I'm not up to speed on their service records but I wonder how much us being at war for the last 15 years plays into some of this violence. We certainly have a lot of people in this country who have trained and served during wartime. I'm sure many have PTSD (not excusing the actions of the last couple tragedies). I just wonder how possible it is for our nation to have a peaceful homefront when we are constantly at war.

I'm not arguing whether these wars are needed or just, only whether there is any correlation.

I have a good friend that was in the Marines. For a while he was afraid to do much of anything because every time he got angry with someone he always had this thought of how easy it would be to just kill the person. He said before the thought would never cross his mind because he never had that mindset. When he came back he said it was hard to turn that switch off because it had been a norm for 2 years.

I should ask him about this.
 

kmoose

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CNN's Don Lemon and Wisconsin Sheriff David Clarke got into it tonight on Lemon's program over BLM and it's claims of police abuse. Lemon was addressing the conciliatory/let's work together attitude that so many had leaders were stating in the media. He asked Clarke what message he would like to add.

Clarke was quite for a moment that said, "You don't beleive that, do you?" Lemon surprised responded, "Yes." Clarked asked Lemon if there had been any riots or protests today over the killing of cops in Baton Rouge and Dallas. Lemon said he didn't follow. The others had a message of peace what message did Clark have. Clark said that hate filled message of BLM had started two years ago and that he (Clarke) had predicated the problems that developed from that hate message.

Clarke stressed that the killing/war on police has to stop. Lemon tried to talk him into a conciliatory message but Clarke wasn't biting. He again was quite for a moment, then looked directly at Lemon with his jaw set. In firm tone of voice Clarke noted that BLM was built on a lie and had been since Ferguson with the now disproved "Hands Up. Don't Shoot" slogan.

Lemon asked how Clarke could deny the statistics that show widespread police abuse. Clarke challenged those statistics. Lemon asked him how he could deny those stats. Clarke claimed the stats were not well defined as to the circumstances of arrests, etc. When Lemon again took up the police abuse gauntlet, Clarke turned the tables and challenged Lemon to prove that there was a pattern of nationwide abuse. Lemon hemmed that this was a national show and he was a professional and didn't have to justify himself and he wasn't going to argue with Clarke. Lemon called for a commercial break and the screen faded to black.

I found Lemon's dodge interesting as about a half hour earlier I had watched him and a 3 member panel discussing conciliation and police/community interaction. One of the panel members former NYC Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik took issue with Lemon over "facts" Lemon referred to generally but never stated. Kerik strongly disagreed with Lemon. Lemon took the same I'm a professional journalist tact with Kerik.

With Kerik it worked, he backed down. Clarke didn't.

Wisconsin sheriff on recent shootings: I predicted this - CNN Video

What is hysterical about this video is that Lemon got obviously caught hyperbolizing(not sure that's actually a word). When Sheriff Clarke mentions that police don't treat black men any different than white men and states that the idea that black males are 2 times more likely to be shot than white males is a lie, Lemon flat out tells him, "That's not a lie. The research we have from the Washington Post..........". Clarke says to him, "The Washington Post debunked that research." Lemon charges on, saying that a Harvard professor has also done research to prove that black people are treated more aggressively by police officers than white people. Lemon is using this study to support his notion that black men ARE shot by police more often than men. Clarke tells Lemon that he(Lemon) is wrong in his interpretation of the findings, that he(Clarke) has read the study and that the professor was surprised to find... at which point Lemon interrupts him and says, "He was surprised to find that in shootings, of the most severe, shootings, that he found no evidence that there was a difference." So Lemon is doing exactly what the Sheriff just said he was....... perpetuating a lie.

Who knew that Don Lemon of CNN posted here on IE? :whoknows:
 
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Bogtrotter07

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The sin is arguing semantics, when peoples daddies are being shot in the street.
 

Irish#1

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CNN's Don Lemon and Wisconsin Sheriff David Clarke got into it tonight on Lemon's program over BLM and it's claims of police abuse. Lemon was addressing the conciliatory/let's work together attitude that so many had leaders were stating in the media. He asked Clarke what message he would like to add.

Clarke was quite for a moment that said, "You don't beleive that, do you?" Lemon surprised responded, "Yes." Clarked asked Lemon if there had been any riots or protests today over the killing of cops in Baton Rouge and Dallas. Lemon said he didn't follow. The others had a message of peace what message did Clark have. Clark said that hate filled message of BLM had started two years ago and that he (Clarke) had predicated the problems that developed from that hate message.

Clarke stressed that the killing/war on police has to stop. Lemon tried to talk him into a conciliatory message but Clarke wasn't biting. He again was quite for a moment, then looked directly at Lemon with his jaw set. In firm tone of voice Clarke noted that BLM was built on a lie and had been since Ferguson with the now disproved "Hands Up. Don't Shoot" slogan.

Lemon asked how Clarke could deny the statistics that show widespread police abuse. Clarke challenged those statistics. Lemon asked him how he could deny those stats. Clarke claimed the stats were not well defined as to the circumstances of arrests, etc. When Lemon again took up the police abuse gauntlet, Clarke turned the tables and challenged Lemon to prove that there was a pattern of nationwide abuse. Lemon hemmed that this was a national show and he was a professional and didn't have to justify himself and he wasn't going to argue with Clarke. Lemon called for a commercial break and the screen faded to black.

I found Lemon's dodge interesting as about a half hour earlier I had watched him and a 3 member panel discussing conciliation and police/community interaction. One of the panel members former NYC Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik took issue with Lemon over "facts" Lemon referred to generally but never stated. Kerik strongly disagreed with Lemon. Lemon took the same I'm a professional journalist tact with Kerik.

With Kerik it worked, he backed down. Clarke didn't.

Wisconsin sheriff on recent shootings: I predicted this - CNN Video

One of the biggest issues that helps fan the flames is the selective use of facts by the media. Has Obama mentioned in his speech the amount of black on black killings versus police killing blacks? It's senseless when anyone is gunned down, but we need to keep in mind how some of these started in the first place. Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.

In Indy, the new mayor is a former U.S. Attorney. He has implemented a new policy where police are walking "beats" again. From what I've seen on the news, the results so far are pretty positive. Neighbors are happy it's starting to rid some areas of drug dealers making neighborhoods a little safer and not giving the youth the wrong "role model" to look up to.
 

tussin

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It's amazing how narrow sighted or willfully ignorant these BLM groups are. How in the world can it be surprising that there are higher rates of tragic encounters between cops and black citizens in areas of extreme black on black crime? Then to create a "racist cop" narrative out of what is clearly a sad consequence of extreme crime and poverty is despicable.
 

phgreek

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One of the biggest issues that helps fan the flames is the selective use of facts by the media. Has Obama mentioned in his speech the amount of black on black killings versus police killing blacks? It's senseless when anyone is gunned down, but we need to keep in mind how some of these started in the first place. Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.

In Indy, the new mayor is a former U.S. Attorney. He has implemented a new policy where police are walking "beats" again. From what I've seen on the news, the results so far are pretty positive. Neighbors are happy it's starting to rid some areas of drug dealers making neighborhoods a little safer and not giving the youth the wrong "role model" to look up to.

I'm just laughing at all these folks who fomented this "Cops are the enemy" shit, and now they want to hug it out...it is OBVIOUS they know they contributed to, not helped diffuse, a volatile situation.

Lastly Don Lemmon is ok at times, but like all media, he sucks at being a JOURNALIST...not his fault because he never was, and never was asked to be a real journalist.
 

Ndaccountant

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I'm just laughing at all these folks who fomented this "Cops are the enemy" shit, and now they want to hug it out...it is OBVIOUS they know they contributed to, not helped diffuse, a volatile situation.

Lastly Don Lemmon is ok at times, but like all media, he sucks at being a JOURNALIST...not his fault because he never was, and never was asked to be a real journalist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/u...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0

pretty good summary of the Harvard study.
 

pkt77242

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One of the biggest issues that helps fan the flames is the selective use of facts by the media. Has Obama mentioned in his speech the amount of black on black killings versus police killing blacks? It's senseless when anyone is gunned down, but we need to keep in mind how some of these started in the first place. Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.

In Indy, the new mayor is a former U.S. Attorney. He has implemented a new policy where police are walking "beats" again. From what I've seen on the news, the results so far are pretty positive. Neighbors are happy it's starting to rid some areas of drug dealers making neighborhoods a little safer and not giving the youth the wrong "role model" to look up to.

Huh? Yes black on black violence is significant and something that needs to be addressed but what does that have to do with police killing blacks people? Those are two separate problems (both need to be addressed but in different ways).

As to the second part of the first paragraph, that is ridiculous. Saying that " Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.", is befuddling. What if a black person (or any person) is being targeted for their skin color? Did you see how many times that Philando Castille was pulled over? I know plenty of shitty drivers, who don't use turn signals, speed, etc. and they rarely get pulled over. Have you seen the how black drivers in Minnesota are more likely to be pulled over than whites, and to be searched?

Even if someone is committing a minor traffic violation, why should that end in their death? The Philando Castile case seems to be a cop that overreacted and shot someone he shouldn't have. To say he shouldn't have put himself in that position by driving with a broken taillight, frankly is victim blaming.


We should all respect the police, they shouldn't be facing the threats that they are facing right now, but they also need to be held accountable when they fail.
 

IrishLax

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Huh? Yes black on black violence is significant and something that needs to be addressed but what does that have to do with police killing blacks people? Those are two separate problems (both need to be addressed but in different ways).

I think the point is the hypocrisy of saying "black lives matter" and meaning "black lives matter only in the rare instance that they're taken by a cop... otherwise we don't care at all."

The thing is, I actually support most of the message of BLM vis a vis police brutality (see my other thread on this site)... but I am absolutely done supporting an organization that gives zero shits about actually solving problems and is truly just a hate group. Their members are mostly just racist black supremacist who want cops and whites dead... they're funded by people with alternative agendas, and they're run by career activists/liars that make tons of $$ and have a job only if there is a problem.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Again. Hypocrisy doesn't mean beans when peoples lives are being taken.

I am sure every permutation of assholes giving money to the mentally unbalanced that has been listed is true.

But isn't it a little crazy to run a fact check on social media when people are shooting to kill, (you and me.)
 

pkt77242

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I think the point is the hypocrisy of saying "black lives matter" and meaning "black lives matter only in the rare instance that they're taken by a cop... otherwise we don't care at all."

The thing is, I actually support most of the message of BLM vis a vis police brutality (see my other thread on this site)... but I am absolutely done supporting an organization that gives zero shits about actually solving problems and is truly just a hate group. Their members are mostly just racist black supremacist who want cops and whites dead... they're funded by people with alternative agendas, and they're run by career activists/liars that make tons of $$ and have a job only if there is a problem.

I don't disagree with you. I don't really support BLM (the idea that black people and other minorities are targeted unfairly by police, and face more police brutality, yes. Their tactics and violence, no).
 

gkIrish

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Again. Hypocrisy doesn't mean beans when peoples lives are being taken.

I am sure every permutation of assholes giving money to the mentally unbalanced that has been listed is true.

But isn't it a little crazy to run a fact check on social media when people are shooting to kill, (you and me.)

I think the point is that the media is partially at fault for causing these deaths (both by enflaming blacks and causing resentment among whites).

This all started because of Ferguson and a complete lie ("Hands Up"). The media took the lie and ran with it because it was a racy story (no pun intended).
 

calvegas04

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This is something you see everyone on social media from blm members/supporters

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/fight4facultyofcolor?src=hash">#fight4facultyofcolor</a> and students of color because we all woke up to this white supremacist bullshit in Collis. <a href="https://t.co/l1gtxNCzqq">pic.twitter.com/l1gtxNCzqq</a></p>— mikala a. trilliams (@talladultchild) <a href="https://twitter.com/talladultchild/status/731097174898003969">May 13, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

calvegas04

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Activist going through police use of force training

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yfi3Ndh3n-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

phgreek

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I think the point is the hypocrisy of saying "black lives matter" and meaning "black lives matter only in the rare instance that they're taken by a cop... otherwise we don't care at all."

The thing is, I actually support most of the message of BLM vis a vis police brutality (see my other thread on this site)... but I am absolutely done supporting an organization that gives zero shits about actually solving problems and is truly just a hate group. Their members are mostly just racist black supremacist who want cops and whites dead... they're funded by people with alternative agendas, and they're run by career activists/liars that make tons of $$ and have a job only if there is a problem.

DING DING DING...CORRECT ANSWER!
 

Bishop2b5

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Activist going through police use of force training

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yfi3Ndh3n-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That was excellent. Kudos to the police force for the offer and him for accepting it. He seemed to have a genuinely different opinion afterwards and a better appreciation for how dangerous and difficult it can be having to make life & death decisions in the blink of an eye and while under stress. A good idea and glad they did this.
 

Irish#1

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Huh? Yes black on black violence is significant and something that needs to be addressed but what does that have to do with police killing blacks people? Those are two separate problems (both need to be addressed but in different ways).

As to the second part of the first paragraph, that is ridiculous. Saying that " Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.", is befuddling. What if a black person (or any person) is being targeted for their skin color? Did you see how many times that Philando Castille was pulled over? I know plenty of shitty drivers, who don't use turn signals, speed, etc. and they rarely get pulled over. Have you seen the how black drivers in Minnesota are more likely to be pulled over than whites, and to be searched?

Even if someone is committing a minor traffic violation, why should that end in their death? The Philando Castile case seems to be a cop that overreacted and shot someone he shouldn't have. To say he shouldn't have put himself in that position by driving with a broken taillight, frankly is victim blaming.


We should all respect the police, they shouldn't be facing the threats that they are facing right now, but they also need to be held accountable when they fail.

Your stretching my point out of context. My point is you don't see the BLM movement protesting loudly that the black on black violence needs to stop. Is it okay for blacks to continue to kill each other? I'm not forgiving the police where they were clearly out of bounds, but there are quite a few instances where the victim was to blame, yet the police were portrayed as being the wrong doers.
 

Irish#1

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Activist going through police use of force training

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yfi3Ndh3n-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Takes a lot of training to be able to handle those situations so you react accordingly. Then, you still have to deal with your own human nature and try to follow your training and not your instincts.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I think the point is that the media is partially at fault for causing these deaths (both by enflaming blacks and causing resentment among whites).

This all started because of Ferguson and a complete lie ("Hands Up"). The media took the lie and ran with it because it was a racy story (no pun intended).

It is all of our faults.

Everybody that talks and doesn't act.

Time for talking is over.

If you were a boss and had one or more of your direct report employees spending their time assessing everyone else, placing blame and not concentrating on what they needed to do, what would you do? Fire 'em?

We need to formulate how we are going to stop these deaths.

It will take at least three things :

  1. Personalization of all other individuals, including those with a different perspective, right or wrong;
  2. Not talking about what we are going to do, but doing it, and doing it consistently, no matter who is involved;
  3. Changing the paradigm that guns need to be on the street to protect us.

The more I read, hear, and converse about it, the more I think revisiting the interpretation of the Second Amendment is in order.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The part about the militia needs to be brought back. A well regulated militia. If you want to 'bear arms,' 'carry concealed weapons,' etc., join a regulated, certified militia. It could be done by town, county, organization. There would be rigorous standards that would need to be met to insure radical, or reactionaries are not in charge of these militias. Training could be regulated, which would help weed out unfit or incapable candidates. In fact, I think that if whole bunches of people went through the training that we saw in the tape, there would be a lot less controversy over the whole issue. What do you think?
 

gkIrish

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It is all of our faults.

Everybody that talks and doesn't act.

Time for talking is over.

If you were a boss and had one or more of your direct report employees spending their time assessing everyone else, placing blame and not concentrating on what they needed to do, what would you do? Fire 'em?

We need to formulate how we are going to stop these deaths.

It will take at least three things :

  1. Personalization of all other individuals, including those with a different perspective, right or wrong;
  2. Not talking about what we are going to do, but doing it, and doing it consistently, no matter who is involved;
  3. Changing the paradigm that guns need to be on the street to protect us.

The more I read, hear, and converse about it, the more I think revisiting the interpretation of the Second Amendment is in order.



The part about the militia needs to be brought back. A well regulated militia. If you want to 'bear arms,' 'carry concealed weapons,' etc., join a regulated, certified militia. It could be done by town, county, organization. There would be rigorous standards that would need to be met to insure radical, or reactionaries are not in charge of these militias. Training could be regulated, which would help weed out unfit or incapable candidates. In fact, I think that if whole bunches of people went through the training that we saw in the tape, there would be a lot less controversy over the whole issue. What do you think?

Before you get to the steps you are suggesting, one must agree with the premise that there is actually an underlying problem. I don't think we have a national, systemic problem with cops killing black people. I just don't. There is no data to support it whatsoever.

I think the problem is the reaction to the shootings, not the shootings themselves. Some of the shootings have been questionable, others not so much. It's an individual case-by-case question and this is why we have courts. We don't need to satisfy a movement just because the movement says there is a problem.
 

pkt77242

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Your stretching my point out of context. My point is you don't see the BLM movement protesting loudly that the black on black violence needs to stop. Is it okay for blacks to continue to kill each other?

Of course it isn't okay for black people to continue to kill each other (or for that matter for anyone to kill another). Should BLM focus on that as well, definitely, but I think that comparing the two is flawed. Police officers are suppose to serve and protect the citizens and instances in which they kill a citizen unjustly, it will cause more outrage than other types of violence (just as the killing of children causes more outrage than the killing of adults).


I'm not forgiving the police where they were clearly out of bounds, but there are quite a few instances where the victim was to blame, yet the police were portrayed as being the wrong doers.

First, I agree that there are instances were the police were blamed and they probably shouldn't have been, though to be fair, in some of those cases we never got to hear the other persons side because, well they were dead.

Also your original statement was this:
Don't want a confrontation with the police? don't put yourself in a position where you are doing something illegal or appear to be doing something illegal.

Which to me is part of the problem, see black people (and in some parts of the country other minorities such as Hispanics) are more likely to get stopped, have their cars searched, etc. They are more likely to be pulled over for things that many citizens do (speed, not use turn signal, etc.) and sometimes they are pulled over for driving while black (or Hispanic, etc.). It is easy to say don't do something illegal, or don't appear to be doing something illegal, but I think it ignores the fact that black people have to "be more innocent" than a white person to avoid suspicion. That is sad, that is the problem with your advice, it ignores the reality they they have to deal with and most of us (I don't know your race, so I am just generalizing) don't experience.
 

Ndaccountant

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Before you get to the steps you are suggesting, one must agree with the premise that there is actually an underlying problem. I don't think we have a national, systemic problem with cops killing black people. I just don't. There is no data to support it whatsoever.

I think the problem is the reaction to the shootings, not the shootings themselves. Some of the shootings have been questionable, others not so much. It's an individual case-by-case question and this is why we have courts. We don't need to satisfy a movement just because the movement says there is a problem.

At the same time, the murder rate in the US is the basically treading water at the lowest point in nearly 50 years.
 
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