2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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kmoose

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Bottled spring water is collected from a spring, put in a bottle and sold. Not a lot of overhead.

Are you trolling or are you really this ignorant?

You have to pay the people who run the bottling plant. You have to build the plant. You have to have insurance on the plant. You have to pay massive liability premiums, in case some rat shits in a bottle and your Quality Control Dept doesn't catch it. You have to pay to have the bottles shipped to the stores. You have to pay to advertise. Etc, etc, etc. You keep bitching about markups.......... tell me what the industry standard is, in terms of how much it costs to produce one bottle of water? Because I did google it, as I mentioned before, and the outrageous markups that you keep citing are the cost of a unit of bottled water, compared to the cost of the same unit of tap water. It's not the markup on the produced bottle of water!
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Show me a photo of this $13,000 pantsuit or stop making things up.

Hat tip to IrishYJ for posting the photo/ link before I did. I don't make shit up, and you're way off your game here lately. SO now that that is cleared up, how are we to label the Clinton supporters at that rally? Hillary wearing a $13k suit and lecturing Americans on income inequality...amazing. Simply amazing.
 
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GoIrish41

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Trying to talk to you about anything that has to do with finance or economics is like talking to the wall and while I seem to have a lot of patience today as evidenced by my initial attempt to explain this issue to you even I have my limits. So I suggest you get an accounting book and look up how to determine the fair market value of an asset yourself. Or better yet stay financially ignorant for all I care. We are talking about $400!!!!! so who really cares.

If you want to learn how to really take advantage of the system, see my post earlier today that describes how taxpayers are subsidizing the Clinton campaign via income taxes. There we are talking about real money, probably in the area of $5M.

We are not talking about $400. We are talking more than $1 million that he paid to himself from campaign funds for his products and services. That is not "self funding". He is being reimbursed, whether it's for the price that an individual would typically pay for a bottle of water or for renting out a ballroom in one of his posh resorts for a wedding reception, he is the business that is profiting. I don't think you need to be an economist or an accountant to figure that out. No matter what amount he pays himself he is using campaign funds to do it. That is the issue.
 

GoIrish41

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Hat tip to IrishYJ for posting the photo/ link before I did. I don't make shit up, and you're way off your game here lately. SO now that that is cleared up, how are we to label the Clinton supporters at that rally? Hillary wearing a $13k suit and lecturing Americans on income inequality...amazing. Simply amazing.

I don't disagree. Next thing you know she'll hire a bunch of cheap immigrant labor to build herself a hotel and then threaten to toss them out of the country. You are mistaking me for a Hillary fan. Far from it. My candidate appears to have bought his suits at Sears.
 
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phgreek

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Are you trolling or are you really this ignorant?

You have to pay the people who run the bottling plant. You have to build the plant. You have to have insurance on the plant. You have to pay massive liability premiums, in case some rat shits in a bottle and your Quality Control Dept doesn't catch it. You have to pay to have the bottles shipped to the stores. You have to pay to advertise. Etc, etc, etc. You keep bitching about markups.......... tell me what the industry standard is, in terms of how much it costs to produce one bottle of water? Because I did google it, as I mentioned before, and the outrageous markups that you keep citing are the cost of a unit of bottled water, compared to the cost of the same unit of tap water. It's not the markup on the produced bottle of water!

...also intermediate or short-mid term regional warehousing, since these retail folks all want JIT inventory...
 

EddytoNow

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We are not talking about $400. We are talking more than $1 million that he paid to himself from campaign funds for his products and services. That is not "self funding". He is being reimbursed, whether it's for the price that an individual would typically pay for a bottle of water or for renting out a ballroom in one of his posh resorts for a wedding reception, he is the business that is profiting. I don't think you need to be an economist or an accountant to figure that out. No matter what amount he pays himself he is using campaign funds to do it. That is the issue.

Based on Trump's history of failing to pay his sub-contractors, he probably has no choice but to use his own companies. Any other companies would be smart to ask for cash up front to make sure they get paid.
 

wizards8507

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Well he just forgave a $50M loan he made to the campaign. Compared to HRC he is an angel. Did you know that the Clinton's reported $15M millions in charitable contributions from 2007 - 2014 with virtually all of it (99%) going to the Clinton Foundation. How did the foundation spend this money? How about paying the salaries of key campaign staffers from her 2008 failed campaign who were hired by the foundation and I am sure they were only working on foundation issues. After announcing her candidacy, surprise, they all resigned from the foundation and joined her new campaign. Now the kicker is the Clinton's get an immediate tax deduction for the charitable contribution, which she would not have gotten if the contributions were made to her campaign. Basically you (assuming you pay federal income taxes) essentially helped finance her campaign whether you wanted to or not. Pretty slick.

Great article Whiskey. I've been saying similar for a while.
Status quo or inches for 4 years is only pumping more water in a balloon that is already overfilled. Just a matter of time...

I don't see any Trump lovers. All I see are Rs who know Trump is an Idiot, making fun of Ds who think HRC is a better alternative. Both are in the dictionary under scum, or in Buster's case, Wikipedia..

Sorta like the rational people on the right and left who think HRC is a steaming hot lying turd?

What is as or more disgusting is HRC's supporters who think she is honest, or feel that her email server scandal is just an overreaction and didn't put the US at risk..

Yep.. The sad sad thing, is that when HRC beats Trump, they will actually see victory, instead of thinking holy shit we just elected a ...... fill in the blank...

It's right here.... crazy sexy cool isn't it? Sorry, it was 12k and some change...
The surprising strategy behind Hillary Clinton’s designer wardrobe | New York Post
"Hillary is worse" is not a valid defense of Trump.
 

wizards8507

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Isn't the whole concept of voting this election coming down to "Lesser of two evils?"
When it comes to voting, yes. In that case, you have to pick one or the other or abstain.

But I think we have room for a lot more nuance when it comes to our discourse. Maybe I'll vote for Trump on the premise that "Hillary is worse," but that doesn't preclude me from discussing his many negatives in the meantime.
 

NorthDakota

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When it comes to voting, yes. In that case, you have to pick one or the other or abstain.

But I think we have room for a lot more nuance when it comes to our discourse. Maybe I'll vote for Trump on the premise that "Hillary is worse," but that doesn't preclude me from discussing his many negatives in the meantime.

Right on. I agree with that.
 

GoIrish41

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Are you trolling or are you really this ignorant?

You have to pay the people who run the bottling plant. You have to build the plant. You have to have insurance on the plant. You have to pay massive liability premiums, in case some rat shits in a bottle and your Quality Control Dept doesn't catch it. You have to pay to have the bottles shipped to the stores. You have to pay to advertise. Etc, etc, etc. You keep bitching about markups.......... tell me what the industry standard is, in terms of how much it costs to produce one bottle of water? Because I did google it, as I mentioned before, and the outrageous markups that you keep citing are the cost of a unit of bottled water, compared to the cost of the same unit of tap water. It's not the markup on the produced bottle of water!

Companies that bottle water -- particularly spring water -- have notoriously low overhead costs. This is true because the resource that they are selling is free. Yes, there are costs of employees (low wage jobs), water testing (natural water sources don't require nearly the scrutiny/testing of public water systems), shipping, equipment and warehousing, but consider that even a small operation can bottle something like 250 bottles a minute sell it for, let's say, 10 cents a bottle -- that's $36K a day for a 24 hour operation.

These plants are usually pretty well automated -- meaning that all of the drawing the water from the spring, making the plastic bottles, filling them, labeling them, caping them require minimal human interaction. Interesting note: it takes the equivalent of three bottles of water to make the bottle that holds a "bottle of" water, which of course is inconsequential to our costs because the water is free.

A small operation might have a single lab technician on staff to run water quality tests. A handful of employees can keep a facility going, and again, these are not 6-figure jobs we're talking about. Let's be generous and pay each of 10 employees on three shifts $20 an hour -- $4800 a day for the whole company -- which comes out of the $36,000 of revenue we generate each day selling this unlimited, free resource. Oh no, now we only have made only $31K a day! How will we survive?

We've got bills to pay. Let's set aside cash for our expenses (equipment, buildings, trucks, utilities, etc.) in the amount of $5000 a day ($1.825 millions year) to pay the bills -- a ridiculously high number, I know, lest someone think I'm ignorant for estimating too low. We are now down to a paltry $26K a day for selling a resource that is free, and we are accounting for 30 full-time employees, shipping, storage, office space, equipment and consumables. How much do you suppose insurance and advertising will cost us? Lets again go crazy and say these will cost us $2000 a day each. We are now making a measly $21K a day. Do you think the roughly $8 million a year our company will make before taxes is worth our time?
 
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Monk

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Companies that bottle water -- particularly spring water -- have notorioously low overhead costs. This is true because the resource that they are selling is free. Yes, there are costs of employees (low wage jobs), water testing (natural water sources don't require nearly the scrutiny/testing of public water systems), shipping, equipment and warehousing, but consider that even a small operation can bottle something like 250 bottles a minute sell it for, let's say, 10 cents a bottle -- that's $15,000K a day for a 24 hour operation (or $36K a month).

Since these plants are usually pretty well automated -- meaning that all of the drawing the water from the spring, making the plastic bottles, filling them, labeling them, caping them require minimal human interaction. Interesting note: it takes the equivalent of three bottles of water to make the bottle, which of course is inconsequential to our costs because the water is free.

A small operation might have a single lab technician on staff to run water quality tests on the water. A handful of employees can keep a facility going, and again, these are not 6-figure jobs we're talking about. Let's be generous and pay each of 10 employees on three shifts $20 an hour -- $4800 -- which comes out of the $36,000 of revenue we generate each day selling this unlimited, free resource. Oh no, now we only have made only $31K a day! How will we survive?

We'll divide up our expenses (equipment, buildings, trucks, utilities, etc.) and set aside $5000 a day ($1.825 millions year) to pay the bills -- a ridiculously high number, I know, lest someone think I'm ignorant for estimating too low. We are now down to a paltry $26K a day for selling a resource that is free, and we are accounting for 30 full-time employees, shipping, storage, office space, equipment and consumables. How much do you suppose insurance and advertising will cost us? Lets again go crazy and say these will cost us $2000 a day each. We are now making a measly $24K a day. Do you think the $8 million a year our company will make before taxes is worth our time?

I don't want to get to much into this, as I think the bottle water thing is a little silly, but I estimate for a living so I find this post interesting. I do not know anything about bottled water facilities, but 250 bottles every minute seems very high to me. That is over 4 bottles of water a second and with your analysis there is no down time at all. I would think one bottle of water a second would be a lot, but again I do not work in that industry.
 

GoIrish41

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I don't want to get to much into this, as I think the bottle water thing is a little silly, but I estimate for a living so I find this post interesting. I do not know anything about bottled water facilities, but 250 bottles every minute seems very high to me. That is over 4 bottles of water a second and with your analysis there is no down time at all. I would think one bottle of water a second would be a lot, but again I do not work in that industry.


You are right, I definitely did not account for down time, but the machines that fill these bottles fill dozens of bottles at once. Two hundred fifty a minute is actually a relatively low number. In this article -- The Bottom Line: Where profit flows from the ground up - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram -- it refers to machines that are much faster than that. Granted, this article is discussing the a larger facility than I'm describing, but it suggests that the plant has multiple machines capable of filling nearly five times that number every minute.

"Maples said the 838,000 square-foot facility is the largest bottled water plant in the world, turning out about 80 million cases of water every year. Some of the machines at Hollis can fill 1,200 bottles per minute."
 
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Monk

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You are right, I definitely did not account for down time, but the machines that fill these bottles fill dozens of bottles at once. Two hundred fifty a minute is actually a relatively low number. In this article -- The Bottom Line: Where profit flows from the ground up - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram -- it refers to machines that are much faster than that. Granted, this article is discussing the a larger facility than I'm describing, but it suggests that the plant has multiple machines capable of filling nearly five times that number every minute.

"Maples said the 838,000 square-foot facility is the largest bottled water plant in the world, turning out about 80 million cases of water every year. Some of the machines at Hollis can fill 1,200 bottles per minute."

That's amazing. I figured multiple machines, but that is still an average of over 3600 bottles of water a minute.
 

kmoose

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"Maples said the 838,000 square-foot facility is the largest bottled water plant in the world, turning out about 80 million cases of water every year. Some of the machines at Hollis can fill 1,200 bottles per minute."

So you want to use the production capacity of an almost 1M square foot, top of the line facility in your analysis. But you want to determine costs based on a mom and pop operation with 10 employees. Got it. That's sounds about right.
 

Irish YJ

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"Hillary is worse" is not a valid defense of Trump.

Did I defend Trump? I recall suggesting I'm saddened by Ds that have the capacity to believe HRC is the answer to our problems, but I've never stated Trump is the answer. I think I've been pretty consistent saying both disgust me, and the overall state of both parties is FUBAR.
 

GoIrish41

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So you want to use the production capacity of an almost 1M square foot, top of the line facility in your analysis. But you want to determine costs based on a mom and pop operation with 10 employees. Got it. That's sounds about right.

What the hell are you talking about? My example is based on a "mom and pop" facility -- a spring-fed water plant a couple miles from my weekend cabin in Central PA. I've visited the facility multiple times, and my cousin works there. The facility I was describing has 30 employees, 10 per shift -- not 10 employees as you are suggesting. Its output is nowhere near that of the of the facility in the article I posted, which produces 800 million cases of water a year, as opposed to the 120+ million bottles produced in my example. Try to folow along instead of just being an argumentative dick all the time. You might learn something.

I posted the article for Monk's benefit because he questioned that a machine could fill 250 bottles a minute (like the one near my cabin), and that article describes one that can fill 1,200 a minute.
 
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kmoose

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Try to folow along instead of just being an argumentative dick all the time. You might learn something.

Wow. Are you feeling ok, lately? Did some major life event happen to you? Because you have been going off the rails and attacking people personally, in the last few weeks/months. I'm concerned about your well being. Please see a professional if you are struggling with something?
 

GoIrish41

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Wow. Are you feeling ok, lately? Did some major life event happen to you? Because you have been going off the rails and attacking people personally, in the last few weeks/months. I'm concerned about your well being. Please see a professional if you are struggling with something?

Your last three or four posts directed at me were insulting and condescending. Moreover, they betray your typical schtick of trying to be clever, which rarely works for you. You didn't have an answer for my last post so you lept to passive-aggressive bullshit.

Tell you what, Moose. You can take my posts anyway you want to take them. I have always prided myself in being civil to other posters on this board, no matter if I agreed with them or not, excercising patience and trying to avoid lashing out at anyone unless I'm attacked. Of course, that is far too frequently. While I try to leave room for misunderstandings and misinterpretations and often allow conversations to go too far in the tank before I get sick of it, it usually takes some time before I tell people what I really think. Enough. I'm sick of suffering fools like you. As it is abundantly clear who the trolls are on this board I'm not going to let them pull me into idiotic conversations that go nowhere anymore. And when someone calls me "ignorant" or makes it clear that they care more about arguing than what they are arguing, I'm going to tell them to fuck off and save myself the aggravation.
 
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yankeehater

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All this Trump discussion reminds me of a VP I worked for at two different companies. He was partner in a restaurant that he always used to schedule our meetings. The menu was very average so when we needed to entertain or had big hitters in town he would have the chef stock things they normally would not like lobster so the bill would be even higher. I never questioned it once. He even bought all of us Regionals shirts from the restaurant on the company once.
 

GoIrish41

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All this Trump discussion reminds me of a VP I worked for at two different companies. He was partner in a restaurant that he always used to schedule our meetings. The menu was very average so when we needed to entertain or had big hitters in town he would have the chef stock things they normally would not like lobster so the bill would be even higher. I never questioned it once. He even bought all of us Regionals shirts from the restaurant on the company once.

Same scam, bigger scale.
 

EddytoNow

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All this Trump discussion reminds me of a VP I worked for at two different companies. He was partner in a restaurant that he always used to schedule our meetings. The menu was very average so when we needed to entertain or had big hitters in town he would have the chef stock things they normally would not like lobster so the bill would be even higher. I never questioned it once. He even bought all of us Regionals shirts from the restaurant on the company once.

Trump places himself and $$$ above all else. Nothing is immoral or unethical if it gets him attention or makes him money. That's why he can stiff his construction sub-contractors, mock the handicapped, insult Vietnam P.O.W.'s, rip off the "students" at Trump University, cheat on his wives, and insult his political opponents without giving it a second thought. He has no moral compass. His downfall will be his own words, which the Democrats are beginning to use in campaign ads.

Since my realistic choices will be either Trump or Clinton, I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary. We can't afford a president who insults and ridicules the citizens and leaders of our own country and other countries.
 

phgreek

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...are you seriously trying to suggest that Rachel Maddow (I don't care for her fwiw) is somehow on par with Alex Jones?

Alex Jones is a certifiable lunatic. His media outlets are an embarrassment.

...Rachel Maddow is a loon all by herself...no comparison...I don't have the foggiest idea where you have me comparing her to anyone, and I don't know who the fuck Alex Jones is....well I do now.

...discussion of source credibility ensues...then rachel maddow appears atop your post...nuf said.
 

kmoose

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Your last three or four posts directed at me were insulting and condescending. Moreover, they betray your typical schtick of trying to be clever, which rarely works for you. You didn't have an answer for my last post so you lept to passive-aggressive bullshit.

Tell you what, Moose. You can take my posts anyway you want to take them. I have always prided myself in being civil to other posters on this board, no matter if I agreed with them or not, excercising patience and trying to avoid lashing out at anyone unless I'm attacked. Of course, that is far too frequently. While I try to leave room for misunderstandings and misinterpretations and often allow conversations to go too far in the tank before I get sick of it, it usually takes some time before I tell people what I really think. Enough. I'm sick of suffering fools like you. As it is abundantly clear who the trolls are on this board I'm not going to let them pull me into idiotic conversations that go nowhere anymore. And when someone calls me "ignorant" or makes it clear that they care more about arguing than what they are arguing, I'm going to tell them to fuck off and save myself the aggravation.

Always the victim. I hope you feel better soon.
 

phgreek

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This would not shock me...but

If you understand how this all works, you know the likely culprit is the General Contractor (who is not mentioned by name).

Many things can happen but generally speaking...1) the general signs a contract with damage clauses for late, or non-compliant delivery...he will simply spread that across the subs who are still working when it is levied...in this case cabinetry is finish work, and these guys would likely be one of the last on the job. 2) the General has cost overruns and just shits on the last guy(s) on the job because they are last to get paid. 3) The general is a crook, and fucks over people
4) Trump shorted the general, who was forced to short everyone else

So until I knew more about what actually happened between Trump and the Genreal contractor, odds are this is the doings of the General contractor, not Trump.
 

EddytoNow

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This would not shock me...but

If you understand how this all works, you know the likely culprit is the General Contractor (who is not mentioned by name).

Many things can happen but generally speaking...1) the general signs a contract with damage clauses for late, or non-compliant delivery...he will simply spread that across the subs who are still working when it is levied...in this case cabinetry is finish work, and these guys would likely be one of the last on the job. 2) the General has cost overruns and just shits on the last guy(s) on the job because they are last to get paid. 3) The general is a crook, and fucks over people
4) Trump shorted the general, who was forced to short everyone else

So until I knew more about what actually happened between Trump and the Genreal contractor, odds are this is the doings of the General contractor, not Trump.

So you're saying if Trump doesn't pay the General Contractors it's not his fault that the sub-contractors didn't get paid. Just more proof to support my belief that Trump has no moral compass.

In my eyes it's pretty straight forward. If Trump doesn't pay for services for which he contracts, then he is directly responsible for anyone further down the chain that isn't getting paid as a result. A man is only as good as his word, and it appears pretty obvious that Trump's word is no good. And if the claims that he has paid some workers sub-minimum wage are true, he is a hypocrite for even suggesting he wants to protect the working guy from those mean old politicians.
 
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