Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

GATTACA!

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Seriously?? Not just caught up in the moment??

Yes. I've never actually felt like we where going to win a championship other than these Cavs. I was barely old enough to understand what was going on with the 97 Indians. Notre Dame has been a joke most of my life. 2012 turned south so fast I was more numb than anything. Everyone knew the 2007 Cavs were going to be out classed. Last year we where decimated with injuries. The Browns have never even been close in my lifetime. Ect ect

With this Cavs team from the time LBJ announced he was coming back actually felt like a championship was inevitable. Last night was extremely sobering.
 
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NDgradstudent

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I don't look at lineups on paper when choosing winners. Just pointing out this Cavs team is grossly underachieving if they don't hoist a banner before Lebron retires/leaves.

That's definitely true. This is Cleveland, though, so that's what will probably happen.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YDzAZ25hEi4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Of course, Russo eventually got his title(s). In Cleveland, there is only suffering unto death, until the end of time.
 
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GoldenDome

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Well, it would be much easier if any Cavs player could hit an outside shot. Horrible time to get cold beyond the 3-point line. I'll reserve judgment until Cavs role players perform at home. They are pretty much nonexistent so far aside from R Jefferson.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Well, it would be much easier if any Cavs player could hit an outside shot. Horrible time to get cold beyond the 3-point line. I'll reserve judgment until Cavs role players perform at home. They are pretty much nonexistent so far aside from R Jefferson.



I would trust a rattlesnake in a baby's crib before trusting JR Smith to get hot. Sure he has warmed up and will again, but to expect anything out of him consistently seems to be asking too much.
 

BobbyMac

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Disagree.......I remember the Bulls quite well and except for Pippen, MJ's supporting cast was not that good. Love is touted as a superstar, so James has his Pippen. Jordan knew how to extract more out of those guys and was willing to take over when he needed to do so.

Disagree. 91-93 Bulls and the 96-98 Bulls were not simply MJ & Pip. They were perfectly planned rosters.

Besides MJ & Pip, the 91-93 Bulls had Horace Grant, an all star and a 15 & 10 guy. Add a 7-0 Cartwright, a former all star and regarded as the best defensive center in the league not named Hakeem. A full complement of 3pt marksmen each season that included Paxon, Hodges, Armstrong and Trent Tucker and a bench full of athletic all american big men in King, Livingston, Williams.

The 96-97 Bulls were the best perimeter defensive team in history. MJ & Pip were still MJ & Pip, Cartwright retired and Grant was gone to Orlando but replaced offensively with Kukoc and Longley and defensively with Longley and Rodman. They had a new roster of 3 pt shooters including Kerr, Kukoc and Buechler. But that team beat everybody on defense. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper and Randy Brown. Put any combo of them out there with Longley or Wennington and other teams were done. There will never be another team that could shutdown a perimeter like MJ, Pip, Harp and Rodman.

Pippen's overall stats and defense = better than Irving's.

Grant's stats basically same as Love's and Grant was a much better defender.

Player's 4 on for the Bulls were better defenders, better outside shooters and had a locker room full of ex all stars / world champions to add stability to team.


Now if the Cavs would have never traded Harp.... they would've broken that curse in 1990 or '91.
 

BobbyMac

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Head to head starters:

Irving >Paxson
Jordan >Smith
Lebron > Pippen
Love > Grant
Thompson = Cartwright

I have the Cavs at 3-1-1 matching up the starters

The second incarnation of the Bulls nets a similar outcome. Cavs are still handily better at PG, SF, PF, and this time C. (I would take Rodman over Love in a playoff series 100% of the time, but "on paper" Love is a better player)

No excuses. Cavs need to win this series or the season is a cataclysmic failure for them.


Steelie... you need to stick to fishing. lol
 

greyhammer90

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The fact that we are seriously debating the mid-90's Bulls without Jordan against the current Cavs without Lebron is completely ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous to insinuate that if Lebron's current Cavs teammates don't play to the level of the mid-90's Bulls its a mental failure on the part of Lebron that caused this. Just crazy.
 

NorthDakota

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The fact that we are seriously debating the mid-90's Bulls without Jordan against the current Cavs without Lebron is completely ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous to insinuate that if Lebron's current Cavs teammates don't play to the level of the mid-90's Bulls its a mental failure on the part of Lebron that caused this. Just crazy.

Lets look at how the Bulls did in between the three-peats.

'94 Bulls - 55-27 without Michael Jordan
'95 Bulls - 33-31 without Michael Jordan(I'm back, 13-4 with him)

Where would Cleveland be with this current roster without LeBron?

I don't think 55-27 is attainable....considering they went 57-25 this year with King James. 53-29 last season.
 

Irish#1

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Disagree. 91-93 Bulls and the 96-98 Bulls were not simply MJ & Pip. They were perfectly planned rosters.

I agree is was a perfectly planned roster, but on the overall ability of some of those guys, we'll disagree. I think some of those guys you mentioned were better only because Jordan made them better, demanded more out of them and got it. Grant averaged 12.62 ppg and 8.6 rpg with the Bulls. His averages after leaving the Bulls 9.37 & 7. Not a huge difference, but enough to make a difference when you add that little extra contribution from all of the players on the roster.

I'm not a LeBron James fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I do admire what he can do. Here's where I think things getting out of whack. Everyone is banging on the Cavs for last year and their play this year, yet here they are in the finals for the second straight year. There are 30 teams that didn't make it to the finals.
 
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GATTACA!

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Lets look at how the Bulls did in between the three-peats.

'94 Bulls - 55-27 without Michael Jordan
'95 Bulls - 33-31 without Michael Jordan(I'm back, 13-4 with him)

Where would Cleveland be with this current roster without LeBron?

I don't think 55-27 is attainable....considering they went 57-25 this year with King James. 53-29 last season.

To be fair the east is so weak right now the Cavs have basically been doing the bare minimum to get home court. Like Lebron taking a vacation in the middle of last season. So even though I agree those Bulls are light years better, regular season record isn't a great measure.
 

NorthDakota

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To be fair the east is so weak right now the Cavs have basically been doing the bare minimum to get home court. Like Lebron taking a vacation in the middle of last season. So even though I agree those Bulls are light years better, regular season record isn't a great measure.

Right, I agree...but it gives us at least something to look at.
 

calvegas04

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giphy.gif
 

IrishLax

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The problem with the Cavs is that Kyrie Irving has never been good. I've followed him pretty closely for awhile, because he was always contrasted with John Wall. Irving can score. Great, so can 50 other people in the NBA.

He doesn't play defense, at all. So he is a total liability if he is not directly outscoring the other PG. His effective field goal percentage on defense is comically bad. He might as well be a traffic cone. He does an OK job of running offense and creating, but the truth is that the Cavs run the best offense with LeBron handling the ball sooo.... another net negative.

In short, Irving is probably the most overrated player in the entire NBA, and the Cavs have no chance with him out there on the floor because of how good the Golden State guards are.

Kevin Love could be valuable... except that he compounds the defensive issues with Irving on the floor.

Golden State is perfectly designed to throttle Cleveland's roster because of their style of offense.
 

NorthDakota

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The problem with the Cavs is that Kyrie Irving has never been good. I've followed him pretty closely for awhile, because he was always contrasted with John Wall. Irving can score. Great, so can 50 other people in the NBA.

.

I'm more of a John Wall man myself. I am not a basketball mind at all though. Don't know how he'd mesh with a LeBron James offense.
 

NDgradstudent

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The problem with the Cavs is that Kyrie Irving has never been good. I've followed him pretty closely for awhile, because he was always contrasted with John Wall. Irving can score. Great, so can 50 other people in the NBA.

He doesn't play defense, at all. So he is a total liability if he is not directly outscoring the other PG. His effective field goal percentage on defense is comically bad. He might as well be a traffic cone. He does an OK job of running offense and creating, but the truth is that the Cavs run the best offense with LeBron handling the ball sooo.... another net negative.

In short, Irving is probably the most overrated player in the entire NBA, and the Cavs have no chance with him out there on the floor because of how good the Golden State guards are.

Kevin Love could be valuable... except that he compounds the defensive issues with Irving on the floor.

Golden State is perfectly designed to throttle Cleveland's roster because of their style of offense.

If this series continues as it has been going, and is over in 4 or 5 games, either Love or Irving will probably be out.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

Steelie... you need to stick to fishing. lol



What did I say that's even debatable (besides Thompson = Cartwright). I compared the starting 5 from each team, and picked who was better at each position. Is a team far more than their starting 5 and positional matchups? Yes. Just wanted to give the "Jordan had so much more help" camp something to consider.
 

IrishLax

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I'm more of a John Wall man myself. I am not a basketball mind at all though. Don't know how he'd mesh with a LeBron James offense.

John Wall isn't a great scorer, but he's a heck of a true PG in terms of assists and everything else to do with basketball. Chris Paul is better in every aspect especially defense... but Wall is good.

Russell Westbrook is your ideal "alpha" PG. And Curry is your ideal "scorer" PG.

Irving is just a bad version of Curry. If you take Curry and make him a bit worse in literally every aspect... that's Irving. Irving would be a good player on a team like San Antonio that has tons of pieces that work in complement... but he's a horrible fit for a team that already has a guy who should have the ball in his hands as much as possible.

EDIT: to illustrate my point, Iriving ranks 83rd out of 85 eligible point guards in this defensive metric: NBA Real Plus-Minus - National Basketball Association - ESPN

And in general, Irving shakes out as a replacement level point guard with all stats taken together.
 
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GATTACA!

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John Wall isn't a great scorer, but he's a heck of a true PG in terms of assists and everything else to do with basketball. Chris Paul is better in every aspect especially defense... but Wall is good.

Russell Westbrook is your ideal "alpha" PG. And Curry is your ideal "scorer" PG.

Irving is just a bad version of Curry. If you take Curry and make him a bit worse in literally every aspect... that's Irving. Irving would be a good player on a team like San Antonio that has tons of pieces that work in complement... but he's a horrible fit for a team that already has a guy who should have the ball in his hands as much as possible.

EDIT: to illustrate my point, Iriving ranks 83rd out of 85 eligible point guards in this defensive metric: NBA Real Plus-Minus - National Basketball Association - ESPN

And in general, Irving shakes out as a replacement level point guard with all stats taken together.

Irvings handles are better than Curry, but I agree on everything else. Irvings problem is effort. He's a selfish player that only cares about one thing, himself. He can't be bothered with playing defense, even though he's a good enough athlete to have his floor to be middle of the league. Not 83/85. Plus all he wants to do on offense is iso hero ball. He wants to score and fuck everything else.
 

NDgradstudent

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Irvings handles are better than Curry, but I agree on everything else. Irvings problem is effort. He's a selfish player that only cares about one thing, himself. He can't be bothered with playing defense, even though he's a good enough athlete to have his floor to be middle of the league. Not 83/85. Plus all he wants to do on offense is iso hero ball. He wants to score and fuck everything else.

Exactly. As ND LAX's D coordinator and possible new head coach remarked on Twitter:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If you don't guard & you don't help you don't play. <a href="https://t.co/7f6khVDIyS">https://t.co/7f6khVDIyS</a></p>— Gerry Byrne (@byrneirish) <a href="https://twitter.com/byrneirish/status/739876832397266944">June 6, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

irishfan

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So, what the hell is the plan going forward with the main four guys on the roster (LeBron, Kyrie, Love, Thompson)? Because that in no way seems to be a "core" group of guys that can win a title.

Everyone besides LeBron is locked in for the next four seasons with their current deals. Tristan's deal IMO is too large for anyone to really entertain any trade with him. Kyrie and Love IMO have seen their value go way down this past season....I think it will be tough to get similarly talented pieces back if one of them is traded.

I know they went way over the cap last year. Will Gilbert keep doing that? They need a big new addition or a massive trade to get some guys in that mesh with LeBron's style a bit more.

This Cavs team the last two years just seems to be built somewhat similarly to his Miami teams, but the players around LeBron are just much worse and way less athletic. Bosh is a better 4 than Love. Even when he wasn't scoring, Bosh could defend. Kyrie's style doesn't mesh with LeBron at all. Wade wasn't a PG so it's tough to compare them, but Wade>Kyrie. His old Miami shooters (Allen/Miller/Jones) are too old now. He misses a guy like Battier also.

I don't really see a way where they are on GSW level next season barring something crazy happening. And I don't think they are better than the Spurs or Thunder either. The East is terrible so the Cavs will probably coast to the Finals next year (unless KD comes East), but I don't see how they win it all based on what their roster is like right now.
 

NorthDakota

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So, what the hell is the plan going forward with the main four guys on the roster (LeBron, Kyrie, Love, Thompson)? Because that in no way seems to be a "core" group of guys that can win a title.

Everyone besides LeBron is locked in for the next four seasons with their current deals. Tristan's deal IMO is too large for anyone to really entertain any trade with him. Kyrie and Love IMO have seen their value go way down this past season....I think it will be tough to get similarly talented pieces back if one of them is traded.

I know they went way over the cap last year. Will Gilbert keep doing that? They need a big new addition or a massive trade to get some guys in that mesh with LeBron's style a bit more.

This Cavs team the last two years just seems to be built somewhat similarly to his Miami teams, but the players around LeBron are just much worse and way less athletic. Bosh is a better 4 than Love. Even when he wasn't scoring, Bosh could defend. Kyrie's style doesn't mesh with LeBron at all. Wade wasn't a PG so it's tough to compare them, but Wade>Kyrie. His old Miami shooters (Allen/Miller/Jones) are too old now. He misses a guy like Battier also.

I don't really see a way where they are on GSW level next season barring something crazy happening. And I don't think they are better than the Spurs or Thunder either. The East is terrible so the Cavs will probably coast to the Finals next year (unless KD comes East), but I don't see how they win it all based on what their roster is like right now.

Trade Kyrie for "Everybody do the" John Wall.
 
K

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Part of Lebron's allure is that he's 'such a great teammate' and gets so much more (than, say, Kobe) out of teammates and makes them better. Kevin Love has MVP potential. Kyrie is a specimen. Thompson is overpaid with little offensive skills, but still a walking double double that controls the paint. 3 point shooters everywhere.

Lescuses need to stop, he has the roster. If he's an all time great, show up. Not many expect you to win the series, but make it competitive. Hell, OKC did and it's 2 superstars and some scrubs. No excuses, turn up if you're so great.
 

NDgradstudent

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The Cavs can't do much except get a new coach and try to improve their play...and maybe they move a couple guys around. The word on Cleveland talk radio is that either Love or Irving will be gone if this series only lasts 4 or 5 games.

As for GS, we just have to hope they slow down or break up at some point soon. I'm sure they will go to pieces right after Lebron leaves the Cavs again.
 

GATTACA!

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Part of Lebron's allure is that he's 'such a great teammate' and gets so much more (than, say, Kobe) out of teammates and makes them better. Kevin Love has MVP potential. Kyrie is a specimen. Thompson is overpaid with little offensive skills, but still a walking double double that controls the paint. 3 point shooters everywhere.

Lescuses need to stop, he has the roster. If he's an all time great, show up. Not many expect you to win the series, but make it competitive. Hell, OKC did and it's 2 superstars and some scrubs. No excuses, turn up if you're so great.

I get what you're saying but LBJ almost had a triple double in game one and they still got destroyed.
 

NorthDakota

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Part of Lebron's allure is that he's 'such a great teammate' and gets so much more (than, say, Kobe) out of teammates and makes them better. Kevin Love has MVP potential. Kyrie is a specimen. Thompson is overpaid with little offensive skills, but still a walking double double that controls the paint. 3 point shooters everywhere.

Lescuses need to stop, he has the roster. If he's an all time great, show up. Not many expect you to win the series, but make it competitive. Hell, OKC did and it's 2 superstars and some scrubs. No excuses, turn up if you're so great.

I feel ya but matchups in sports are a pretty big thing(See Giants vs. Patriots or Nadal vs. Federer on Clay).
 

Irish#1

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The Cavs can't do much except get a new coach and try to improve their play...and maybe they move a couple guys around. The word on Cleveland talk radio is that either Love or Irving will be gone if this series only lasts 4 or 5 games.

As for GS, we just have to hope they slow down or break up at some point soon. I'm sure they will go to pieces right after Lebron leaves the Cavs again.

Probably end up with another coach that will submit to James.

Will Love or Irving be in the last year of their contract next year? If so, a team will trade for one of them to get the cap space the following year.
 
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NDgradstudent

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At least one Cleveland team is doing well.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Monsters?src=hash">#Monsters</a> WIN IN OT! Oliver Bjorkstrand with the game winner! One win away from the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CalderCup?src=hash">#CalderCup</a>! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BattleTogether?src=hash">#BattleTogether</a> <a href="https://t.co/cu1jVBxpab">pic.twitter.com/cu1jVBxpab</a></p>— Lake Erie Monsters (@monstershockey) <a href="https://twitter.com/monstershockey/status/739998409994731520">June 7, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I normally wouldn't think that the Monsters have much relevance for The Curse except for the 'erie' fact that the last time Cleveland's AHL team (then the Barons) won the Calder Cup was in... 1964.
 

BobbyMac

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At least one Cleveland team is doing well.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Monsters?src=hash">#Monsters</a> WIN IN OT! Oliver Bjorkstrand with the game winner! One win away from the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CalderCup?src=hash">#CalderCup</a>! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BattleTogether?src=hash">#BattleTogether</a> <a href="https://t.co/cu1jVBxpab">pic.twitter.com/cu1jVBxpab</a></p>— Lake Erie Monsters (@monstershockey) <a href="https://twitter.com/monstershockey/status/739998409994731520">June 7, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I normally wouldn't think that the Monsters have much relevance for The Curse except for the 'erie' fact that the last time Cleveland's AHL team (then the Barons) won the Calder Cup was in... 1964.

Greatest mystery in all of sports... How does Florida, Arizona and California have 7 hockey teams while Cleveland and Milwaukee have none?
 

kmoose

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Greatest mystery in all of sports... How does Florida, Arizona and California have 7 hockey teams while Cleveland and Milwaukee have none?

It's no mystery........ there is a lot more cash in those places.
 

BobbyMac

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It's no mystery........ there is a lot more cash in those places.

It only takes 20,000 people a night to make it work. It's hockey country. People grow up playing because the cities are frozen 8 months a year.
 
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