Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

NDgradstudent

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I've spent the better part of 17 years in public schools. Let me assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I've spent plenty of time in public schools too, and how functional they are is highly correlated with how rich the parents of their students are- not the funding the school gets, nor the quality of the teachers, etc.

Our public schools are the envy of the world, right? That's why Obama and all other bourgeois liberals send their children to them.

Oh.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "When the Wrong Are Right":

THE rise of Donald Trump, and with him a white-identity politics more explicit than anything America has seen in decades, has created an interesting division on the political left — over the question of what, if anything, liberal politics ought to offer to people who seem bigoted.

On the one hand there are liberals determined to regard Trumpism as almost exclusively motivated by racial and cultural resentments, with few legitimate economic grievances complicating the morality play. From this perspective, the fact that Trump’s G.O.P. has finally consolidated, say, a once-Democratic area like Appalachia is almost a welcome relief: At last all the white racists are safely in the other party, and we don’t have to cater to them anymore.

On the other hand, there are left-wingers who regard Trump’s support among erstwhile Democrats as a sign that liberalism has badly failed some of its natural constituents, and who fear that a Democratic coalition that easily crushes Trump without much white working-class support will simply write off their struggles as no more than the backward and bigoted deserve.

I like how the left-wing gadfly Fredrik deBoer framed this issue: “What do you owe to people who are guilty of being wrong?” It’s a question for liberals all across the Western world to ponder, given the widening gulf between their increasingly cosmopolitan parties and an increasingly right-leaning native working class.

But as a conservative, I would add another question: What happens if the bigoted sometimes get things right?

Don’t worry, this isn’t a setup for my slow reconciliation with the candidacy of Donald Trump. Rather, it’s a warning against organizing your politics around antibigotry alone, and assuming that just because there are racists or nativists or xenophobes on the other side of a policy argument your side must be right.

Here are a few pertinent examples, from the recent past to the present day.

For decades following the 1960s, liberals insisted that the Republican Party’s tough-on-crime rhetoric wasn’t really about crime at all; it was a barely coded appeal to racists, a transference of white supremacist politics from “segregation now, segregation forever” to paranoia about Willie Horton.

Tough-on-crime rhetoric did indeed play on racial fears; lots of white bigots did vote for law-and-order Republicans. But the rhetoric also played on fears of the actual immense crime wave sweeping the United States, a wave that liberal governance failed miserably to arrest or roll back. And for a long time, elite opinion was so determined not to give white bigots any aid and comfort, so determined not to take racists’ side in any way, that it ignored or minimized the actual policy problem, the actual crisis at its door.

A second example: Both Clintonite neoliberals and free-market conservatives have long dismissed American anxieties about trade deals as the province of rubes and xenophobes, Ross Perot’s nationalists and Pat Buchanan’s nativist brigades. Which was somewhat understandable, since many people who thrilled to Mexico-bashing and, later, China-bashing — and who thrill to it today from Trump — really were bigoted or tribal, eager to find a sinister Latin or Asian scapegoat for their woes.

But that tribal sentiment doesn’t ultimately tell us anything one way or another about the merits of the trade policies themselves. And today there’s increasing evidence that the tribalists were, well, right to be suspicious — that the creative destruction set in motion over their objections cost more jobs, with fewer compensating benefits, than many liberal and conservative free-traders once expected.

Likewise with European anxieties about mass immigration, which for decades the major political parties of Europe labored to confine to the political fringe. After all, their thinking went, since the ranks of immigration skeptics included many racists and Islamophobes and crypto-fascists, the fringe is where those ideas belonged.

Unfortunately, some of the anxieties of the nativists proved more prescient than the blithe assumptions of the elite. Mass immigration is now destabilizing Europe’s liberal order, forging Islamist fifth columns and empowering the very nationalism that open-door cosmopolitanism thought it could safely marginalize and ignore.

A final, forward-looking example: In our latest culture war battlefield, the debate over transgender rights, the left is so determined to rout bigotry that it’s locking in a contested understanding of what gender dysphoria is and how to handle it in children, backing it with federal regulatory power, and punishing with academic witch hunts experts who differ even modestly.

Because bigots bully transgender teenagers, liberalism has decided that everyone who differs with transgender activists must be complicit in that bigotry. But we don’t have anywhere near enough data or experience to confirm the activist perspective — and by embracing it as the only alternative to “transphobia,” we risk sweeping a broad range of childhood fantasy and teenage confusion onto a set path of hormonal and surgical transformation.

If bigots are for it, we’re against it. It’s a powerful credo. But there’s always a danger that by following it too far, you end up being against reality itself.
 

Whiskeyjack

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This roster of "conservative thought leaders" makes me marvel that nobody took over the GOP sooner. <a href="https://t.co/rQqceOoORz">https://t.co/rQqceOoORz</a></p>— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattfrost/status/732726635401596928">May 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Polish Leppy 22

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/w...inside-venezuelas-failing-hospitals.html?_r=0

Hospital wards have become crucibles where the forces tearing Venezuela apart have converged. Gloves and soap have vanished from some hospitals. Often, cancer medicines are found only on the black market. There is so little electricity that the government works only two days a week to save what energy is left.

Who controls the oil? The government
Who controls the energy? The government
Who controls the healthcare system? The government
Who caused the food shortage? The government
 

wizards8507

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Dave Rubin to host a debate between Milo Yiannopoulos and Ben Shapiro. For anyone who has been following the conservative civil war over at Breitbart, you'll know how huge this will be. These guys are heavy hitters.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.
 

GoIrish41

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Just watched the new movie on HBO, All the Way. Excellent portrayal of LBJ from the Kennedy assassination to his election in 1964 and he drug the Democratic Party from its segregationist past in the South to campions of civil rights. Highly recommended. And it's overtones have a lot of parallels to what is going on in the current election and the identity politics that are at the core of domestic policy discussions.
 

Wild Bill

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Dave Rubin to host a debate between Milo Yiannopoulos and Ben Shapiro. For anyone who has been following the conservative civil war over at Breitbart, you'll know how huge this will be. These guys are heavy hitters.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

Should be interesting.
 

phgreek

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Fed Judge Blasts DOJ Lawyers for Lying in Court to Defend Obama Amnesty - Judicial Watch

"It’s been repeatedly proven that government officials lie regularly to cover up wrongdoing and now a scathing federal court order blasting the Department of Justice (DOJ) and its army of lawyers offers details seldom seen by the public. In fact, the judge in this case appears to go out of his way to write something for the masses, not just the parties involved in the litigation.

The case involves a lawsuit filed by 26 states against the federal government challenging President Obama’s immigration amnesty measures. It was originally filed in the Southern District of Texas and the judge hearing the case, Andrew S. Hanen, issued a 28-page order last week slamming DOJ attorneys representing the administration for intentionally lying to the court, thus violating a multitude of ethics and court rules. Among other things Hanen admonishes DOJ lawyers for lying by claiming in court that the president’s amnesty plan featuring three-year deferrals wasn’t being implemented when in fact it was for more than 100,000 illegal aliens. The measure is officially known as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is the agency charged with implementing it.

In the order Hanen writes: “The Government admits that the lawyer making these statements knew at the time of this hearing that the DHS was already granting these three year extensions (which it also admits are only authorized by the 2014 DHS Directive) instead of the two-year renewals authorized in 2012. Not only did counsel fail to tell the Court that the DHS was already granting relief using the 2014 DHS Directive, she told the Court that nothing would happen with regard to revised DACA until mid-February of 2015.” The lashing continues. “Apparently, lawyers, somewhere in the halls of the Justice Department whose identities are unknown to this Court, decided unilaterally that the conduct of the DHS in granting three-year DACA renewals . . . was immaterial and irrelevant to this lawsuit and that the DOJ could therefore just ignore it. Then, for whatever reason, the Justice Department trial lawyers appearing in this Court chose not to tell the truth about this DHS activity. The first decision was certainly unsupportable, but the subsequent decision to hide it from the Court was unethical.”

Texas initiated the lawsuit in December 2014 challenging the president’s amnesty order and the other states eventually joined in. Judge Hanen ruled in favor of the states, essentially blocking the amnesty, and later discovered that the administration disregarded the order and government attorneys repeatedly lied about it in court. After Hanen’s reprimand became public, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton said this: “Throughout this case, the administration has struggled to provide accurate, reliable information regarding the scope of the President’s plan or even when it would be implemented. From the start, our lawsuit has been about asserting that one person cannot unilaterally change the law, and part of that is ensuring everyone abides by the rule of law.

This kind of pubic scolding, especially from a federal court, is seldom seen while a president is still in office. The DOJ is supposed to defend the public’s best interest, not lie to cover up the president’s wrongdoing. An editorial in a mainstream newspaper points out that the misconduct unmasked by Judge Hanen should trouble Americans of all political persuasions. “Prosecutors often abuse their powers in run-of-the-mill cases,” the editorial states. “But this is a constitutional challenge with major consequences for the separation of powers, and the deceit must have required the participation and coordination of dozens of political appointees and career lawyers. That suggests a serious institutional failure, not mere rogue actors.” The piece refers to the DOJ’s systematic deception in court about the administration’s conduct an “ethics rot.” "

Sure, whats the harm in letting DOJ folks engage in the political process...donate money, maybe coordinate some money being sent to super PACS. Hell what could go wrong with having a vested interest in the political...as a lawyer representing America? I mean the IRS and the EPA do this kind of thing too, so whats the big deal? COI SMEEOI...so long as we get what we want.

SMH...
 

Whiskeyjack

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Oren Cass just published his review of Yuval Levin's Fractured Republic titled "No More Nostalgia":

Yuval Levin has issued a challenge to both the Left and the Right: define and communicate a positive vision for twenty-first-century America. The new book by the founder and editor of National Affairs would be formidable if it merely diagnosed how America arrived at what he calls “our age of fracture.” But The Fractured Republic is exhilarating because Levin doesn’t just demand that policymakers jettison nostalgia and come up with creative new approaches—he walks the walk, offering a model answer of his own.

Levin traces the national economic and cultural consolidations of the Progressive Era, the Great Depression, World War II, and the postwar era, when a moment of cohesion and liberalization allowed the country to “benefit from the familial, social, cultural, and economic stability made possible by that unity and order, while also benefiting from the dynamism made possible by greater individualism, diversity, and competition.” But this “inevitably fleeting transition,” he shows, gave way to “dwindling solidarity, cohesion, stability, authority, and social order.”

Change creates serious problems if met with nostalgia instead of creativity. In a wry yet insightful passage, Levin maps the aging of the nation’s culturally dominant Baby Boomers to the way each decade has come to be remembered: childhood in the 1950s as “a simple time of stability and wholesome values” giving way to the “youthful rebellion and growing cultural awareness” of the mid-1960s, then a “confidence shaking” entry into real life in the 1970s, “settling down” in the 1980s, “building wealth and stability” in the 1990s, and starting to “peer over the hill toward old age” at the turn of the century. The Left, he suggests, looks back longingly to the idealism of the sixties; the Right, to the stability of the eighties. Rather than accept society’s profound transformation, “we have tended to understand this era of uncertainty . . . as an aberration, and so we have spent the past decade and more waiting for a return to normal that has refused to come.”

Levin illustrates how this nostalgia infects and distorts American politics, leading both parties to create platforms aimed at resurrecting a bygone era. Policymakers on the left are forever “seeking to add more rooms onto the mansion of the Great Society” because they fail to recognize the “unstable dichotomy” of economic consolidation and cultural liberalization it embodied. Presiding over the Obamacare vote in the House of Representatives, Levin notes, Nancy Pelosi proudly wielded the same gavel used by Congressman John Dingell for the passage of Medicare 45 years earlier. The Right, meanwhile, feels “the urge to define today’s problems as simply a reversal of Reagan-era achievements . . . . They paint in broad strokes an economy that could grow with gusto if only some straightforward, misguided restraints were removed.” But “the combination of global circumstances, regulatory restraints, cultural exclusions, and policy controls” that supported a “half-remembered golden age” at mid-century “is not one that we could (or would want to) re-create today.” So Levin poses the question at the book’s heart: “How can we make the most of the opportunities afforded by the dynamism and the freedom set loose by America’s postwar diffusion while mitigating its costs and burdens, especially for the vulnerable among us?”

The key question is not which federal programs should we expand, contract, or reform, but under what social framework—inevitably different from the one in place in 1950—will America thrive? Neither Left nor Right has answered this question. Levin seeks to offer a plausible vision of an American future that sounds different from LBJ-era progressivism or Reaganite smaller government. Paraphrasing James Madison, he argues that “we must seek diffusing, individualist remedies for the diseases most incident to a diffuse, individualist society.” He calls his own vision “subsidiarity,” which he defines as “the entrusting of power and authority to the lowest and least centralized institutions capable of using them well.”

Subsidiarity demands a reinvigorated role for what Levin, following figures like Peter Berger and Richard John Neuhas before him, calls the “mediating institutions” of society—family, work, community, religion—that operate in the middle ground between individuals and their government. These institutions have, he says, been “hollowed out” by the complementary ascent of centralized government and radical individualism. Forcing interaction “face to face” or “living more of our lives at eye level with one another,” as he puts it, “can help build stronger habits of engagement and participation at the local level, where, too often, meeting spaces now stand empty, because what happens there is not allowed to matter.” This is a federalism of sheer necessity: localized problem-solving is uniquely responsive to the challenges of fracture.

These principles find ready application in the economic sphere. The concept of subsidiarity provides intellectual grounding for a broad range of existing policy ideas from the Right—flex funds, charter schools, faith-based initiatives, among others—and also offers a basis for the nascent “public-options progressivism” on the left.

But what about the culture, whose transformation Levin says has run much deeper than the economy’s? Levin is at his best when making the secular case for social conservatism—describing how “expressive individualism,” in coming to dominate American culture, has eviscerated many of society’s critical institutions, and what an alternative built on relational obligations and “morally meaningful communities” might look like. While declaring it “rather obvious . . . that cultural and economic factors are inseparable,” Levin views “family breakdown, cultural dysfunction, and the polarization of norms” to be the primary culprits impairing opportunity.

His formula of subsidiarity, however, makes an awkward fit for this challenge. Levin believes that “the common culture is much less important than it used to be,” which makes it “much easier to imagine local, bottom-up moral subcultures creating the circumstances necessary for social renorming and moral revival.” He wouldn’t “abandon” the common culture or “stop struggling for its character and soul,” but he sees the best opportunity for positive change in “living out what we propose to our neighbors as the good life.” That prescription seems inadequate for those struggling with cultural dysfunction in collapsing communities, who are the focus of his concern. Many of the societal bifurcations he laments would preclude these Americans from encountering positive role models. And his prescription of a “subcultural approach” doesn’t differ much from what we’re doing today, which isn’t working terribly well. Levin suggests that traditionalists “may not need to do something new, but they might need to understand what they are already doing in a new way,” and that “this can suffice, especially if they are willing to welcome into their circle outsiders who come in search of what they have to offer.” But this can’t suffice if the goal is to reverse the decline of subcultures whose members seem ill-equipped to turn this around on their own.

“The absence of easy answers,” Levin argues, “is precisely a reason to empower a multiplicity of problem-solvers throughout our society.” Yet he wants the conservative subculture to “embody universal human truths that should shape the character of the larger society.” Since, in his view, there is a right answer, subsidiarity as he describes it seems less solution than resignation.

Still, it’s no small accomplishment that Levin manages to give readers a thorough diagnosis, a usable vocabulary, and a foundation to build from. He urges us to define notions of success that are “indigenous to twenty-first-century America,” not relics of an earlier era. And he puts society’s mediating institutions at the center of his vision. “The work of reinforcing them,” he concludes, “sustaining the space for them, and especially putting them within the reach of as many of our fellow citizens as possible must be among our highest and most pressing civic callings. That calling, rather than a hyper-individualist liberation, should be the organizing principle of our political life, helping us to see what to conserve and how to progress.”Agree or disagree with Levin’s prescription, he has made the need for a novel and aggressive course of treatment impossible to deny.
 

Legacy

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House Speaker Mike Hubbard made nearly $2.3 million off state position, prosecutors say

Prosecutors claimed Tuesday during opening statements in the ethics trial of Alabama House Speaker Mike Hubbard of Auburn that he illegally made nearly $2.3 million off his state position.

The defense denied any wrongdoing and called the felony indictment "a bunch of mumbo-jumbo."

A Lee County special grand jury indicted Hubbard in October 2014 on 23 felony ethics charges.

Prosecutors told Circuit Judge Jacob Walker that the first three witnesses they would call John Ross, Tim Howe and Barry Whatley.

Ross and Howe are former executive directors of the state Republican Party, while Whatley is president of Craftmaster Printers.

Four of the charges against Hubbard allege that he steered Republican Party money to his businesses, Craftmaster and Auburn Network, during the time he was state Republican Party chairman.

Special Prosecutions Division Chief Matt Hart gave opening arguments for the state, which took about one hour and 40 minutes.

Hart started with something of a civics lesson, explaining to the jury the branches of state government, the state ethics law and the role of the Ethics Commission.

He then told the jury about Hubbard's background, dating back to Hubbard's time working in athletic departments at the University of Georgia and Auburn University in the 1980s, where his publicity work helped Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson win the Heisman Trophy.

Hart told the jury about Hubbard being first elected to the Legislature in 1998, which brought him under the ethics law, and about Hubbard's company, the Auburn Network, which at one time had the rights to broadcast Auburn University athletics.

Hart explained that Hubbard bought part ownership in Craftmaster Printers in 2000. Some of the charges against Hubbard are that he directed Republican Party money to Craftmaster during the time when Hubbard was GOP state chairman.

In 2003, Hart said, Hubbard sold the broadcasting rights for Auburn athletics to IMG, and IMG retained him as a paid executive.

The judge in the case, Judge Jacob Walker (Rep), is running for reelection - but is unopposed. Terms are for six years.
 
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Legacy

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Obama Legacy

Obama Legacy

Some highlights and achievements:

  • Longest war in American history
  • Deficit spending increasing debt from $10 trillion to $20 trillion
  • Bush tax cuts for elite made permanent
  • Wall Street and financial safeguards eroded
  • Bank and auto industry bailouts costing trillions with bankers escaping prosecution
  • Health care law without safeguards, allowing pharmaceutical and insurance companies to show record profits
  • Huge boosts in military spending

Ain't George W. envious? Best Republican President ever.
 

wizards8507

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Some highlights and achievements:

  • Longest war in American history
  • Deficit spending increasing debt from $10 trillion to $20 trillion
  • Bush tax cuts for elite made permanent
  • Wall Street and financial safeguards eroded
  • Bank and auto industry bailouts costing trillions with bankers escaping prosecution
  • Health care law without safeguards, allowing pharmaceutical and insurance companies to show record profits to
  • Huge boosts in military spending

Ain't George W. envious? Best Republican President ever.
LMAO what are you talking about? With the exception of military spending and tax cuts (both good things), you're talking about ways in which George Bush acted like a liberal, not ways in which Obama has been acting like a conservative. You need to brush up on your political philosophy if you think deficit spending, bailouts, and a healthcare system completely detached from supply and demand have anything to do with conservatism.

This is the problem with ignorant liberals. They attack conservatism without having any clue what it actually means. Granted, the Republican establishment has been complicit in this regard by behaving like corporatist hacks.
 

BobbyMac

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LMAO what are you talking about? With the exception of military spending and tax cuts (both good things), you're talking about ways in which George Bush acted like a liberal, not ways in which Obama has been acting like a conservative. You need to brush up on your political philosophy if you think deficit spending, bailouts, and a healthcare system completely detached from supply and demand have anything to do with conservatism.

This is the problem with ignorant liberals. They attack conservatism without having any clue what it actually means. Granted, the Republican establishment has been complicit in this regard by behaving like corporatist hacks.

Who completely missed the point of his post, you or me?
 

wizards8507

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Who completely missed the point of his post, you or me?
His bullet points said "Obama sucks." His last line said "...because he behaved like a Republican." He's saying Obama is the most Republican president ever because he did all these awful things.
 

Whiskeyjack

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His bullet points said "Obama sucks." His last line said "...because he behaved like a Republican." He's saying Obama is the most Republican president ever because he did all these awful things.

You were the one who conflated "Republican" with "conservative". And as Trump's campaign has shown, Conservatism Inc. doesn't have much purchase on the GOP these days.
 

wizards8507

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You were the one who conflated "Republican" with "conservative".
If you look at the party platform, behaving Republican-ish should be the same thing as behaving conservatively. My interchanging of the terms was deliberate, to call to attention exactly what you're describing. Behaving in the way that Republican elected officials have tended to act is not the same as behaving Republican-ish, which would be conservatism.

And as Trump's campaign has shown, Conservatism Inc. doesn't have much purchase on the GOP these days.
See above. The Republican party is still nominally the party of conservatism.
 

IrishLax

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This past weekend I had this very discussion with a group of people. My contention was that history will treat Obama very kindly... that in 20 years people will look back on him how many did Reagan and start naming tons of stuff after him, etc.

The reason why is that liberals whitewash stuff that they would crucify anyone with an (R) next to their name for doing. On top of that, he'll probably be bookended by Bush and HillDog which will make him look amazing by comparison.
 
G

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Most executive orders curtailing American rights and violating the Constitution. The steady march of Executive power in the US via executive order started a while ago, but Obama couldn't get enough people to agree with him so he took it up a notch.
 

Irish#1

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Just what we need, another political thread. Mods, cleanup in aisle 3. Please move to one of the already existing political threads.
 

Legacy

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LMAO what are you talking about? With the exception of military spending and tax cuts (both good things), you're talking about ways in which George Bush acted like a liberal, not ways in which Obama has been acting like a conservative. You need to brush up on your political philosophy if you think deficit spending, bailouts, and a healthcare system completely detached from supply and demand have anything to do with conservatism.

This is the problem with ignorant liberals. They attack conservatism without having any clue what it actually means. Granted, the Republican establishment has been complicit in this regard by behaving like corporatist hacks.

While I am sure that your suggestion that I brush up on my political philosophy was well-meant, I feel I must explore your "ignorant liberals". Did you say George Bush was a liberal and, therefore, ignorant? I grant your conclusion and venture to agree that he functioned without any political philosophical guidance.

You miss my point, though, when you depart from Obama administration "highlights" to a liberal - conservative remarks. Most people don't care about philosophical tenets of government and do acknowledge that those differences will always remain. They just want a government to work without the entanglements of polarizing philosophies.

Having dismissed all liberals as ignorant and the "Republican establishment" as "corporate hacks", do you find yourself at odds with a Reagan who would compromise with the opposite party on bills, too? Distanced from that establishment and "ignorant liberals", who's left? Are you throwing grenades from a foxhole surrounded by - as Whiskey, I believe, put it - "mouthbreathers"?

I grant I may be wrong, because you - as I - don't envision ourselves as seen through another's eyes.
 

Legacy

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Most executive orders curtailing American rights and violating the Constitution. The steady march of Executive power in the US via executive order started a while ago, but Obama couldn't get enough people to agree with him so he took it up a notch.

Ranking by the number of Executive orders by President after Truman to exclude WWII:

Eisenhower (2 terms) - 484
Reagan (2 terms) - 381
Clinton (2 terms) - 364
Richard Nixon (5 years) - 346
Lyndon B. Johnson (6 years) - 325
Jimmy Carter (1 term) -320
George W. Bush (2 terms) - 291
Barack Obama (2 terms) - 235
John F. Kennedy (3 years) - 214
Gerald R. Ford (1 term) - 169
George H. W. Bush (2 terms) - 166

Reagan (381), George H.W. (166), Clinton (364), George W (291), Obama (235)
 
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GoIrish41

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Ranking by the number of Executive orders by President after Truman to exclude WWII:

Eisenhower (2 terms) - 484
Reagan (2 terms) - 381
Clinton (2 terms) - 364
Richard Nixon (5 years) - 346
Lyndon B. Johnson (6 years) - 325
Jimmy Carter (1 term) -320
George W. Bush (2 terms) - 291
Barack Obama (2 terms) - 235
John F. Kennedy (3 years) - 214
Gerald R. Ford (1 term) - 169
George H. W. Bush (2 terms) - 166

Reagan (381), George H.W. (166), Clinton (364), George W (291), Obama (235)

Facts have no place in this discussion, thank you.
 

NDRock

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You were the one who conflated "Republican" with "conservative". And as Trump's campaign has shown, Conservatism Inc. doesn't have much purchase on the GOP these days.

Agree. It's like the old adage in recruiting, "pay more attention to what a recruit does than what he says".

Republicans talk a lot about small government, they just never do it. It's why they always disappoint me more than Dems.
 

Legacy

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Stop. Mods merge please. We have threads for this [whatever] political narrative.

The nice aspect of NDNation, Andy, is that you can view all comments to new statements very easily in their general sections. IE has only New Threads. Merge topics at the risk of losing views and comments.
 
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