2016 Presidential Horse Race

[GoIrish41]

Restricting where people can carry guns only restricts where law abiders can carry guns, by virtue of the fact that the evil-doers don't give a damn about what restrictions you pass. In a world of "good guys" and "bad guys," restrictions only disarm the "good guys" and tip the scales in favor of the "bad guys."

Evil doers? that you 'W'?

Again, I think it is a silly argument to say more guns is an answer to the problem of gun violence.

 

[RDU Irish]

Serious, straightforward question for everyone.

You have a biological XY male high school student who identifies as female. Where does this person shower after gym class? Do you have any concern with the other girls in the class being subjected to her penis in the showers?

Like 95% of HS students - said student just won't shower. The other 5% are all gay.

 

[ACamp1900]

Serious, straightforward question for everyone.

You have a biological XY male high school student who identifies as female. Where does this person shower after gym class? Do you have any concern with the other girls in the class being subjected to her penis in the showers?

Honest Answer, I would pitch a shit fit if my 12 year old daugther, who does shower at school, was forced to share a shower with some 12 year old boy.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Like 95% of HS students - said student just won't shower. The other 5% are all gay.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah, I think the justifications being used are ridiculous and offensive in their own right. I've never heard a story about a transgender person assaulting anyone. That argument is providing a solution to a problem that does not exist. And I understand that this bathroom issue is a political football, but if I had to come down on one side or the other -- even though it puts me on the same side of an issue with folks who I almost never agree with about anything -- I'd choose not making many, many people feel uncomfortable so a few can feel better about themselves.

These recent bathroom laws are bring portrayed as social/ religious conservatives randomly and irrationally seeking to discriminate against the gender dysphoric. But they're actually a reaction to a recent assertion by the Obama DoE that Title XI entitles transgender kids to use any bathroom they choose:

The Department’s Title IX regulations permit schools to provide sex-segregated restrooms, locker rooms, shower facilities, housing, athletic teams, and single-sex classes under certain circumstances. When a school elects to separate or treat students differently on the basis of sex in those situations, a school generally must treat transgender students consistent with their gender identity.

Progressives have declared this the next frontline in the culture war.

 

[GoIrish41]

These recent bathroom laws are bring portrayed as social/ religious conservatives randomly and irrationally seeking to discriminate against the gender dysphoric. But they're actually a reaction to a recent assertion by the Obama DoE that Title XI entitles transgender kids to use any bathroom they choose:



Progressives have declared this the next frontline in the culture war.

I am a progressive and I don't agree with them and I think it was a foolish assertion by the current administration. If the idea was to start a controversy in an election year, it was even more foolish because, in my estimation, most people (progressives included) do not want their young daughters in public bathrooms with adult men. That does not mean that those men are rapists or child molesters, it is just not appropriate. That said, I do not agree with the justifications that some are using to fight against these laws. I think they are as absurd as the laws themselves.

 

[wizards8507]

I am a progressive and I don't agree with them and I think it was a foolish assertion by the current administration. If the idea was to start a controversy in an election year, it was even more foolish because, in my estimation, most people (progressives included) do not want their young daughters in public bathrooms with adult men.

That's not the progressive position. The progressive position is that the adult man is not, in fact, an adult man. He becomes a teenage girl simply by virtue of claiming to identify as such. That's what's so poisonous about the trans argument. It doesn't just hold a certain opinion, it argues that known facts aren't so.

 

[Legacy]

My issue with it is that most of us have shared a bathroom with a trans person at one time or another and I have yet to see one story about a trans person molesting or raping someone. The reason that these laws are being passed right now is that it is an election year and they view it as a way to turn out the vote (on both sides). Basically trans has become part of the gay/abortion wedge driving issues that turn out voters.

I have to agree with you rather than Whiskey on this.

Nothing infuriates Americans more than being told their rights are being infringed upon or taken away or that there is a war on their culture or religious liberty. We are a society of different cultures and religions.

 

[wizards8507]

I have to agree with you rather than Whiskey on this.

Nothing infuriates Americans more than being told their rights are being infringed upon or taken away or that there is a war on their culture or religious liberty. We are a society of different cultures and religions.

X chromosome + Y chromosome + penis = male. That's not cultural or religious bias. That's a statement of fact.

 

[GoIrish41]

That's not the progressive position. The progressive position is that the adult man is not, in fact, an adult man. He becomes a teenage girl simply by virtue of claiming to identify as such. That's what's so poisonous about the trans argument. It doesn't just hold a certain opinion, it argues that known facts aren't so.

Sounds like a lot of the GOP on climate change.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I have to agree with you rather than Whiskey on this.

Nothing infuriates Americans more than being told their rights are being infringed upon or taken away or that there is a war on their culture or religious liberty. We are a society of different cultures and religions.

I'm not defending the bathroom laws per se. As I wrote in the political correctness thread, the gender dysphoric have the same basic human dignity as everyone else, and they deserve to be treated with mercy and compassion. There may be more effective ways to simultaneously recognize that while upholding the (universally recognized until the day before yesterday) norm that men and women are fundamentally different, and that sex-segregated public facilities are not a violation of anyone's civil liberty.

But it's important to note that the Obama DoE picked this fight for political reasons, and social/ religious conservatives are the ones now scrambling to find an answer.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

How will it be regulated? Cops at every entrance doing crotch grabs?
100% certainty we have all, at one point in time, been in the bathroom with a trans-gendered person, without knowing and without incident.
This doesn't stop molesters, etc from still entering a bathroom.
This actually creates the opposite outcome, in that a born male who looks like a woman will have to enter the mens restroom, and vice versa. Seems backwards to me....BUT...I completely agree about schools and public showering. I completely see the issue with a born male, identifying as a woman, showering in the womens lockeroom posing a problem. Typically I'm on the side of less discrimination, but I'm not sure how you approach that specific issue.

 

[Legacy]

I'm not defending the bathroom laws per se. As I wrote in the political correctness thread, the gender dysphoric have the same basic human dignity as everyone else, and they deserve to be treated with mercy and compassion. There may be more effective ways to simultaneously recognize that while upholding the (universally recognized until the day before yesterday) norm that men and women are fundamentally different, and that sex-segregated public facilities are not a violation of anyone's civil liberty.

But it's important to note that the Obama DoE picked this fight for political reasons, and social/ religious conservatives are the ones now scrambling to find an answer.

I understand. It's symbolic, arguably symptomatic, with spiritual/religious resonance, butressed by biology.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Have to be honest.....I get uncomfortable when I turn the corner into the gym locker room and see some overweight, over the hill man walking around the place naked as the day he was born. If we really wanted everyone to feel comfortable and have a safe place, then there should be a handsome male club vote on whether you get to be naked in front of everyone else in the men's locker room.

 

[ACamp1900]

Have to be honest.....I get uncomfortable when I turn the corner into the gym locker room and see some overweight, over the hill man walking around the place naked as the day he was born. If we really wanted everyone to feel comfortable and have a safe place, then there should be a handsome male club vote on whether you get to be naked in front of everyone else in the men's locker room.

So what you are saying is: you want only good looking guys to be naked in front of you........... okay.

 

[wizards8507]

Have to be honest.....I get uncomfortable when I turn the corner into the gym locker room and see some overweight, over the hill man walking around the place naked as the day he was born. If we really wanted everyone to feel comfortable and have a safe place, then there should be a handsome male club vote on whether you get to be naked in front of everyone else in the men's locker room.

I get that you're mostly being sarcastic, but it's a huge difference when you're talking about one grown man being made uncomfortable by another grown man versus when it's a young girl being made uncomfortable by a biological male.

So what you are saying is: you want only good looking guys to be naked in front of you........... okay.

I think Koon maintains that list.

Also, stop being so homophobic.

 

[ACamp1900]

Also, stop being so homophobic.

But what if I identify as one???... freakin bigot./

 

[phgreek]

These recent bathroom laws are bring portrayed as social/ religious conservatives randomly and irrationally seeking to discriminate against the gender dysphoric. But they're actually a reaction to a recent assertion by the Obama DoE that Title XI entitles transgender kids to use any bathroom they choose:



Progressives have declared this the next frontline in the culture war.

The unfortunate thing is, at least initially, that the individual school district and state will be forced to defend against the law suits. Thats money not spent on educating kids. Even if this thing is forced, what will happen is major reconstruction costs...and what schools will do is build totally enclosed mini suites inside the confines of the once general restrooms to meet the privacy demand from parents...again money spent on something that does not educate a single kid. Then, of course, inner city schools won't have the money to do the retrofit, so now we've created another situation where the educational experience in the inner city is less or includes yet another distraction. THIS IS SOOO STUPID.

At what point do we acknowledge that life can be harder for some than others, however, in general budgetary limitations force us to build public institutions like schools to best serve the most people. Gonna make schools spend 10X normal for restrooms...thats coming from somewhere. Thus thousands upon thousands of kids lose in order to support the comfort of like 4. I realize such things do not generally persuade liberals...

At what point do we say that we have an ADA for a reason. If you want to define gender dysphoria as a disability, then schools can likely get federal funding to establish proper restrooms to support this issue in a way acceptable to everyone. Otherwise adherence/support will be all over the map. This entire discussion is so STUPID, I can't believe we are here. It is SOOOO far from the education mission, it is insulting it would be foisted upon schools/communities without anything other than "Make it so".

However, if folks are going to fall on their swords for it, at least have the decency to do it right, and first arm schools to deal with it BEFORE you drop it in their lap. I haven't seen where anyone on the liberal side has provided any ADDITIONAL funding with this requirement.

 

[Ndaccountant]

So what you are saying is: you want only good looking guys to be naked in front of you........... okay.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I get that you're mostly being sarcastic, but it's a huge difference when you're talking about one grown man being made uncomfortable by another grown man versus when it's a young girl being made uncomfortable by a biological male.


I think Koon maintains that list.

Also, stop being so homophobic.

Yes, I understand that. Btw, since you turned my joke of one of the best Jimmy Kimmel sketches into something more serious.........

 

[Legacy]

The unfortunate thing is, at least initially, that the individual school district and state will be forced to defend against the law suits. Thats money not spent on educating kids. Even if this thing is forced, what will happen is major reconstruction costs...and what schools will do is build totally enclosed mini suites inside the confines of the once general restrooms to meet the privacy demand from parents...again money spent on something that does not educate a single kid. Then, of course, inner city schools won't have the money to do the retrofit, so now we've created another situation where the educational experience in the inner city is less or includes yet another distraction. THIS IS SOOO STUPID.

At what point do we acknowledge that life can be harder for some than others, however, in general budgetary limitations force us to build public institutions like schools to best serve the most people. Gonna make schools spend 10X normal for restrooms...thats coming from somewhere. Thus thousands upon thousands of kids lose in order to support the comfort of like 4. I realize such things do not generally persuade liberals...

At what point do we say that we have an ADA for a reason. If you want to define gender dysphoria as a disability, then schools can likely get federal funding to establish proper restrooms to support this issue in a way acceptable to everyone. Otherwise adherence/support will be all over the map. This entire discussion is so STUPID, I can't believe we are here. It is SOOOO far from the education mission, it is insulting it would be foisted upon schools/communities without anything other than "Make it so".

However, if folks are going to fall on their swords for it, at least have the decency to do it right, and first arm schools to deal with it BEFORE you drop it in their lap. I haven't seen where anyone on the liberal side has provided any ADDITIONAL funding with this requirement.

Wow. How many trans are there in your community? Would it be fiscally reasonable to establish a Charter school for the gender dysphoric? If so, what federal or state laws would apply or may be superseded the others? Would separate bathrooms preclude future changes in individual dysphoria? Would conservative gender dysphorics need to sue to gain admission?

 

[RDU Irish]

This is what happens when you try to legislate all of society. F-ing knobs in NC Legislature took the bait and ran with it.

 

[irishfan]

Clinton leads Trump by just 3 points in new poll | TheHill

Since it's most likely going to be Trump vs. Clinton....

 

[irishfan]

Trump Is Probably Going To Run Over Cruz And Kasich In The Northeast | FiveThirtyEight

Will be a Trump sweep tomorrow and it's probably all over if he wins Indiana next week. He should be a lock to eventually get to 1,237 if that happens.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Legendary basketball coach Bobby Knight to campaign for Trump in Indiana <a href="https://t.co/J3qDReAIEJ">https://t.co/J3qDReAIEJ</a> <a href="https://t.co/0ZxPgqzBD8">pic.twitter.com/0ZxPgqzBD8</a></p>— The Hill (@thehill) <a href="https://twitter.com/thehill/status/724675617409650688">April 25, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That should be a solid boost in the state.

 

[pkt77242]

These recent bathroom laws are bring portrayed as social/ religious conservatives randomly and irrationally seeking to discriminate against the gender dysphoric. But they're actually a reaction to a recent assertion by the Obama DoE that Title XI entitles transgender kids to use any bathroom they choose:

I would point out that it isn't just about bathrooms. They took away cities ability to pass non-discrimination ordinances. So Charlotte (or Durham, etc.) can't make LGBT a protected class within the city. It also reaffirms that protection from discrimination at the state level is limited to "race, religion, color, national origin, or biological sex". I love how religious people get the protection (which they should) but if you want to fire someone for being Gay, go for it. Or if you want to kick them out of a rental, etc.

The law isn't just about bathrooms or locker rooms, it is about keeping LGBT people as second class citizens.

Progressives have declared this the next frontline in the culture war.

Not just progressives, both sides have.

 

[wizards8507]

The law isn't just about bathrooms or locker rooms, it is about keeping LGBT people as second class citizens.

Answer the question and don't change the subject.

Where do you want a trans female (with a penis) to shower after gym class?

 

[pkt77242]

Answer the question and don't change the subject.

Where do you want a trans female (with a penis) to shower after gym class?

This is a hard one for me. I don't like the idea of a 12yo boy with a penis showering with a girl. Of course if you have shower stalls, you remove that issue (as it seems that more and more schools are going that direction. If you have shower stalls, I am not sure it is that much different from using a bathroom (for that matter with all of the teachers/students over the years getting in trouble for watching people shower it is kind of weird that we still have communal showers). Without shower stalls it becomes an issue. I probably wouldn't want a 12yo with a penis showering with my daughter in a communal shower.

Having said that I think we push these kids to "identify" too young, and having said that I think that most adults who want the surgery should be able to have the surgery to change sexes. So yes, I am slightly all over the place.

ETA: You never responded to the part that you kept of my quote. Why shouldn't LGBT be protected from being fired or kicked out of housing just for being LGBT?

 

[Buster Bluth]

WTF is the point of making some law that will absolutely never be enforced? Who is going to be checking parts at the public restrooms? Really? Brings back thoughts of the good ole SNL "Pat" skits.

It's an election year and the social conservatives need to lead the charge against something.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would point out that it isn't just about bathrooms. They took away cities ability to pass non-discrimination ordinances.

I agree that's a major problem with the NC law. If we're going to hold this increasingly polarized republic together, we're going to have to respect the rights of distinct electorates to self-determination.

So Charlotte (or Durham, etc.) can't make LGBT a protected class within the city. It also reaffirms that protection from discrimination at the state level is limited to "race, religion, color, national origin, or biological sex". I love how religious people get the protection (which they should) but if you want to fire someone for being Gay, go for it. Or if you want to kick them out of a rental, etc.

That's a strong indicator that: (1) sexual orientation and gender "identification" are not analogous to race; and (2) the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is ill-suited to handling these issues.

The law isn't just about bathrooms or locker rooms, it is about keeping LGBT people as second class citizens.

As I mentioned above, I'm not defending these laws as the most prudent way of addressing the issue of civil rights for the gender dysphoric, but by ascribing evil motives to your political opponents, you're part of the problem as well. There are lots of perfectly rational reasons why a state or local government might seek to push back against the Obama DoE letter (linked on the previous page) that have nothing to do with enmity towards those suffering from gender dysphoria.

Not just progressives, both sides have.

That's laughable. Virtually every such recent conflict has originated from a top-down Federal mandate seeking to normalize some Progressive idea, against which social and religious conservatives have to scramble for accommodation. Your side is clearly the aggressor.

 

[ACamp1900]

So yes, I am slightly all over the place.

We pretty much all are, this isn't some straight forward issue lacking complexity. "Feels" like the abortion issue to me in that regard.