ND Men's Basketball 2015-2016 season

[gkIrish]

I remember a time when we beat nobody. Much rather be fire and ice than just pure ice.

Brey's MO is biting him in the ass again this year. No reason no to play 9 deep this year with Ryan, Farrell, Torres and Pfluegger supplementing Auguste, Vasturia, DJ, VJ and Colson. We would be a much better team right now if DJ and Steve were averaging half a dozen fewer minutes per game. Another MO, lack of urgency, nearly cost us a double bye in the ACC tourney - gotta motivate your boys to play for that b/c four games in four nights is tough for anyone.

And I know that before we were bad we were great under Digger Phelps. It's not like we have a history of losing consistently. I think we are in the top 15 in all-time win percentage.

You pointed out a few of Brey's MOs. It's sad that he refuses to fix problems that everyone knows exist.

 

[NorthDakota]

He took UMass to two straight Elite 8s and a Final Four...

Were those vacated?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I have zero dog in this fight, just saying he did in fact win big at UMass... just having fun being contrarian with you more than anything... I'm a Brey fan more than not.

yeah. But he's a massive cheater. So I'm not sure you can count him.

 

[RDU Irish]

And I know that before we were bad we were great under Digger Phelps. It's not like we have a history of losing consistently. I think we are in the top 15 in all-time win percentage.

You pointed out a few of Brey's MOs. It's sad that he refuses to fix problems that everyone knows exist.

Agree on both points. When Harangody went down late in the year and he was forced to coach he actually exceeded expectations and we salvaged the year. Harangody came back and kind of mucked things up. I just think he gets lazy and marks too much up to "karma" and similar dippy garbage. Yes I think we could do better but I think Brey is likely to retire Irish so no point belaboring the point. Enjoy the rides and SMH at the lows - bring in Thon and bring back DJ (which may be the only benefit of his crappy play) and we have a something to get excited about. Without those two and next year could be ugly in the ACC with some en fuego nights thrown in there when the threes are dropping.

 

[T Town Tommy]

yeah. But he's a massive cheater. So I'm not sure you can count him.

Not a Cal fan but to say he cheated is incorrect. Camby took benefits that nobody at UMass knew about. D Rose and his ACT issues at Memphis. The NCAA cleared him only to come back later and "question" his score. I don't think you can lay that on Cal. Coming from a Jayhawk fan I guess I see why. But Kansas and Bill Self haven't been the role models of NCAA compliance so he doesn't get a pass either. As far as a coach, Cal is simply not very good at the X and O side of it. I think I could coach his recruits to a solid finish in the NCAA tourney every year.

With all that said, CBB has become more and more irrelevant for me as the one and done culture and the AAU tie in has all but killed it. And sadly the only thing interesting to me any more is March Madness. The rest of the season... meh.

 

[irishroo]

I agree that ND could be much better in basketball. No reason the program shouldn't be a Final Four-type team every year. Like some of the other posters, though, I don't think Brey is really the problem. The appalling lack of facilities is a much bigger problem. The teams regularly have to practice in the St. Joseph's High School gym over the summer, apparently, because of a lack of space. ND is promising a practice facility for basketball after the completion of the ludicrous Isengard construction project. No reason that we can't have one of the best facilities in the country, and then consistently sign top 20 classes. I've heard people complain that Brey is a "lazy recruiter." I don't know if that is true, but if so obviously that's on him.

I'm all for elevating the program to new heights and hopefully developing higher standards/expectations but this seems a bit overboard. North Carolina under Roy Williams - one of the bluest bloods in all of college basketball helmed by a surefire HOFer - has been to 3 Final Fours in 12 years and the Sweet Sixteen 7 times. Final Four every year isn't realistic for any program.

 

[ACamp1900]

Not a Cal fan but to say he cheated is incorrect. Camby took benefits that nobody at UMass knew about. D Rose and his ACT issues at Memphis. The NCAA cleared him only to come back later and "question" his score. I don't think you can lay that on Cal. Coming from a Jayhawk fan I guess I see why. But Kansas and Bill Self haven't been the role models of NCAA compliance so he doesn't get a pass either. As far as a coach, Cal is simply not very good at the X and O side of it. I think I could coach his recruits to a solid finish in the NCAA tourney every year.

With all that said, CBB has become more and more irrelevant for me as the one and done culture and the AAU tie in has all but killed it. And sadly the only thing interesting to me any more is March Madness. The rest of the season... meh.

I haven't even watched an entire march madness game in years... I'll watch segments of ND games but an entire BB game is such a difficult watch... just nothing of interest until the end to me, and even then half the games are ruined by refs.

 

[AgentJ]

Anti Brey folks are out again? Jesus Christ I thought we put this to rest last year.

You realize we were seconds away from beating undefeated Kentucky and going to the Final Four right? You realize we lost two NBA draft picks right? You realize the facilities and fan support is not there to be a blue blood right? ND is way too small a school. 90% of the football fan base didn't even attend ND and don't give a shit about basketball. Ever see how ND is represented on a neutral floor? They can hardly sell out Purcell unless Duke/UNC/UVA/Louisville/etc is in town.

Gimme a break. Brey has put together one of the best programs in the country year in and year out given his resources.

 

[anarin]

Great post, I'd rep if my phone wasn't being ridiculous

 

[gkIrish]

Anti Brey folks are out again? Jesus Christ I thought we put this to rest last year.

You realize we were seconds away from beating undefeated Kentucky and going to the Final Four right?

We beat #14 Northeastern by 4 and needed overtime to win our second game against Butler. I love how almost beating Kentucky is a good thing but almost losing to a 14 seed is shrugged off. Whatever fits the narrative, right?

You realize we lost two NBA draft picks right?

We have two draft picks on the team right now, including a potential lottery pick. There is not a lack of high-end talent.

You realize the facilities and fan support is not there to be a blue blood right? ND is way too small a school. 90% of the football fan base didn't even attend ND and don't give a shit about basketball. Ever see how ND is represented on a neutral floor? They can hardly sell out Purcell unless Duke/UNC/UVA/Louisville/etc is in town.

Ah the classic blame the fan base for sucking not the coach. ND is poorly represented on a neutral floor because 95% of the games ND plays on neutral floors are far away from South Bend. Both the Big East and ACC tournaments were nowhere close to Indiana. Same with all the preseason tournaments. The only game you can argue ND fans don't show out for like they should is the Crosstown Classic and we know that Purdue, Indiana, and Butler are rabid basketball fan bases. So yes, fans spend their money on football rather than basketball because football is the priority but it doesn't mean the fans don't care about basketball. I was broke and still drove from NY to Cleveland to see the tournament last year.

Do you think Butler made those runs in the NCAA tournament because they ate some secret cereal for breakfast that gave them superior talent? It was 100% coaching. Xavier is the 3rd most popular team in their own town and has done dick in their history but their coach kills it and they are always overachieving.

Gimme a break. Brey has put together one of the best programs in the country year in and year out given his resources.

Were we "one of the best programs in the country" when we missed the tournament altogether in 2009 and 2014? Were we "one of the best programs" when we managed to earn a 2 seed and lose to a fucking 10? Were we "one of the best programs" when we lost to Xavier because of piss poor coaching and blew our chance to play a 15 seed in Round 2? Are we "one of the best programs" considering we have beaten one team in Brey's tenure that was ranked more highly than us in the tourney? People have the shortest fucking memory ever when it comes to basketball. We have literally ONE good run in the tournament in 15 years and Brey is God's gift to coaching. Give me a fucking break.

Thad Motta has taken Ohio St. to 2 final fours and the fans are calling for his head because they missed the tournament this year. They aren't a basketball school. But God forbid an ND fan thinks Mike Brey isn't worth another 10 years. There are so many good young coaches out there that could do better. I'd like to find out.

 

[irishfan]

We beat #14 Northeastern by 4 and needed overtime to win our second game against Butler. I love how almost beating Kentucky is a good thing but almost losing to a 14 seed is shrugged off. Whatever fits the narrative, right?



We have two draft picks on the team right now, including a potential lottery pick. There is not a lack of high-end talent.


Ah the classic blame the fan base for sucking not the coach. ND is poorly represented on a neutral floor because 95% of the games ND plays on neutral floors are far away from South Bend. Both the Big East and ACC tournaments were nowhere close to Indiana. Same with all the preseason tournaments. The only game you can argue ND fans don't show out for like they should is the Crosstown Classic and we know that Purdue, Indiana, and Butler are rabid basketball fan bases. So yes, fans spend their money on football rather than basketball because football is the priority but it doesn't mean the fans don't care about basketball. I was broke and still drove from NY to Cleveland to see the tournament last year.

Do you think Butler made those runs in the NCAA tournament because they ate some secret cereal for breakfast that gave them superior talent? It was 100% coaching. Xavier is the 3rd most popular team in their own town and has done dick in their history but their coach kills it and they are always overachieving.



Were we "one of the best programs in the country" when we missed the tournament altogether in 2009 and 2014? Were we "one of the best programs" when we managed to earn a 2 seed and lose to a fucking 10? Were we "one of the best programs" when we lost to Xavier because of piss poor coaching and blew our chance to play a 15 seed in Round 2? Are we "one of the best programs" considering we have beaten one team in Brey's tenure that was ranked more highly than us in the tourney? People have the shortest fucking memory ever when it comes to basketball. We have literally ONE good run in the tournament in 15 years and Brey is God's gift to coaching. Give me a fucking break.

Thad Motta has taken Ohio St. to 2 final fours and the fans are calling for his head because they missed the tournament this year. They aren't a basketball school. But God forbid an ND fan thinks Mike Brey isn't worth another 10 years. There are so many good young coaches out there that could do better. I'd like to find out.

Agree or disagree that we'd be ridiculed by the media for firing Brey, and we'd be one bad hire away from giving BC a run for their money in the ACC?

 

[gkIrish]

Agree or disagree that we'd be ridiculed by the media for firing Brey, and we'd be one bad hire away from giving BC a run for their money in the ACC?

Probably ridiculed because he is a media-friendly coach. I could care less what the media thinks, though.

And of course we could be worse with a bad hire. But I'm not advocating we hire some shmuck.

Let's see how we do this year. I will shut up about Brey if we get to the Sweet 16.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Do you think Butler made those runs in the NCAA tournament because they ate some secret cereal for breakfast that gave them superior talent?

Hahaha. You pretty much nailed it.

Brey is a cheerleader. He's a players coach. And for the regular season, it works-his players stay loose and have fun.

But come March, he will do stupid crap to put us in a bad situation. Last yeah, I was watching OSU-ND with some friends and they were flabbergasted at his timeout usage.

Just a few days ago against Duke he called a timeout for no reason, allowing them to set up a play to advance the ball. Then our defense wasn't even set, so we needed them to miss a wide open floater to survive. Woohoo.

"I'm not really and X's and O's guy" - Mike Brey

 

[dad4aa]

And I know that before we were bad we were great under Digger Phelps. It's not like we have a history of losing consistently. I think we are in the top 15 in all-time win percentage.

You pointed out a few of Brey's MOs. It's sad that he refuses to fix problems that everyone knows exist.

Digger Phelps
Career Record (Notre Dame): 20 Years, 393-197, .666 W-L%
NCAA Tournament: 15 Years (17-17), 1 Final Four, 0 Championships

Mike Brey
Career Record (Notre Dame): 16 Years, 353-176, .667 W-L%
NCAA Tournament: 10 Years (9-10), 0 Final Four, 0 Championships (does not include this year obviously)

So they have almost identical records and you say Notre Dame was great under Digger and Brey needs to go. Yet, IMO, it is much tougher to recruit now with all of the "one and done" players that would never consider ND. I don't see it.

 

[gkIrish]

Digger Phelps
Career Record (Notre Dame): 20 Years, 393-197, .666 W-L%
NCAA Tournament: 15 Years (17-17), 1 Final Four, 0 Championships

Mike Brey
Career Record (Notre Dame): 16 Years, 353-176, .667 W-L%
NCAA Tournament: 10 Years (9-10), 0 Final Four, 0 Championships (does not include this year obviously)

So they have almost identical records and you say Notre Dame was great under Digger and Brey needs to go. Yet, IMO, it is much tougher to recruit now with all of the "one and done" players that would never consider ND. I don't see it.

Digger Phelps went 6-20 in his first season and 12-20 in his final season which got him fired. If you take away those two seasons his record is 375-157 (.705).

 

[Woneone]

Digger Phelps went 6-20 in his first season and 12-20 in his final season which got him fired. If you take away those two seasons his record is 375-157 (.705).

To be fair, Digger didn't exactly light the world on fire after the expansion to 64 teams, or the few years leading up to it.

Have to remember, when comparing "Sweet 16's" and "Elite 8's", it was much different format then.

Digger was 17-17 in the Tournament. Brey is 9-12.

 

[dad4aa]

Digger Phelps went 6-20 in his first season and 12-20 in his final season which got him fired. If you take away those two seasons his record is 375-157 (.705).

I love how removing two horrible seasons justifies his overall record as being great compared to Brey. Whatever fits the narrative, right?

 

[gkIrish]

I love how removing two horrible seasons justifies his overall record as being great compared to Brey. Whatever fits the narrative, right?

The first and last season are the least indicative of how a coach performed. Especially the first season.

If you want to argue Mike Brey is a better coach than Digger Phelps, then I don't know what to say.

 

[dad4aa]

To be fair, Digger didn't exactly light the world on fire after the expansion to 64 teams, or the few years leading up to it.

Have to remember, when comparing "Sweet 16's" and "Elite 8's", it was much different format then.

Digger was 17-17 in the Tournament. Brey is 9-12.

Brey 9-10 at Notre Dame, 0-2 at Delaware

Digger was 15-16 at ND and 2-1 at Fordham

 

[dad4aa]

The first and last season are the least indicative of how a coach performed. Especially the first season.

If you want to argue Mike Brey is a better coach than Digger Phelps, then I don't know what to say.

I'm not saying one is better than the other but you can't have it both ways. You basically called out Agent J for overlooking a close loss to #14 Northeastern and focusing on almost beating Kentucky yet you want to remove two full seasons of play to make Digger's record better. If you can't see the hypocrisy in your argument, then I don't know what to say.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The first and last season are the least indicative of how a coach performed. Especially the first season.

If you want to argue Mike Brey is a better coach than Digger Phelps, then I don't know what to say.

I totally agree that the basketball program should be better than it is right now. I'm pretty fortunate to have been at ND during last year's remarkable run, but last year should be the norm, not the exception.

It's perfectly fair to criticize Brey, particularly because he seems to be the anti-Izzo in that his teams underperform in the tourney. I just don't think it's fair to seriously contemplate firing him at this point when structural problems -especially the lack of a top-notch practice facility- hold the program back. Let's build one of the best practice facilities in the country and if the program doesn't improve a couple years after that, we can find a new coach.

UPDATE: The WSJ does not help my case for Brey, alas. The teams -among those to have made at least half the tournaments since 2003- that have underachieved the most:

1) Georgetown
2) Pitt
3) Kansas
4) Duke
5) Notre Dame
6) Syracuse
7) Ohio State
8) Oklahoma
9) Texas
10) Gonzaga

And the overachievers:
1) Butler
2) Xavier
3) Florida
4) UConn
5) Michigan State
6) WVU
7) VCU
8) UCLA
9) NC State
10) Tennessee

 

[irishfan]

Probably ridiculed because he is a media-friendly coach. I could care less what the media thinks, though.

And of course we could be worse with a bad hire. But I'm not advocating we hire some shmuck.

Let's see how we do this year. I will shut up about Brey if we get to the Sweet 16.

He's media-friendly, but I think most people recognize that, at the minimum, he's done a "pretty good" job at a school that went a full decade as a terrible program. And a school that will always be at a bit of a disadvantage with the academics and because it will forever be a "football school." I don't think Brey is a good recruiter, but we're just not going to get one-and-done kids here or any McDonalds AAs. DJ fell into our lap due to location. Basketball players aren't really the big men on campus compared to how they are at other schools obviously. And that's not really going to change with a new coach IMO.

By firing Brey, we obviously have no chance of hiring an established coach. It would be tough to lure one here anyway, but firing a well-liked coach who makes the tournament nearly every year and wins 2/3 of his games isn't going to give off much of a job-security vibe.

We'd be reduced to finding a coach from a small school. Which is fine. It is obviously just risky. The chances of us actually hitting on the hire and getting a guy who wants to stay here for the long haul and not just jump to a real basketball school after a good year or two will be so minimal. If we whiff on the hire, we're not far away from being BC IMO. BC under Skinner had nearly the exact amount of success that we've had under Brey. Even if the hire turns out well, the coach will most likely leave for greener pastures and we could be looked at as a "stepping stone" school. Brey has to be one of the only coaches in the country who would remain at ND over going to Maryland.

Brey is frustrating for sure, but he's certainly stepped it up as of late. The recruiting seems to be up a tick with the ACC move, and (you're going to hate this) I think he deserves 2-3 years to get a full roster of guys now that we're ingrained in the ACC and already have a conference championship. If these next couple years resemble the rest of Brey's tenure (outside of last year's success), then I'd be cool with making a move away from Brey. I just think it's worth seeing if the move to the ACC is what gets us from Top 25-40 program to that next level.

 

[Woneone]

Brey 9-10 at Notre Dame, 0-2 at Delaware

Digger was 15-16 at ND and 2-1 at Fordham

I'm aware. If we're discussing the merits of a coach based solely on performance of the team and expectations, it seems like a reasonable step that ALL games would be considered, especially if the consideration to look at other coaches, who one would assume would have to be from a small school, would be the only viable alternative.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

He's media-friendly, but I think most people recognize that, at the minimum, he's done a "pretty good" job at a school that went a full decade as a terrible program. And a school that will always be at a bit of a disadvantage with the academics and because it will forever be a "football school." I don't think Brey is a good recruiter, but we're just not going to get one-and-done kids here or any McDonalds AAs. DJ fell into our lap due to location. Basketball players aren't really the big men on campus compared to how they are at other schools obviously. And that's not really going to change with a new coach IMO.

By firing Brey, we obviously have no chance of hiring an established coach. It would be tough to lure one here anyway, but firing a well-liked coach who makes the tournament nearly every year and wins 2/3 of his games isn't going to give off much of a job-security vibe.

We'd be reduced to finding a coach from a small school. Which is fine. It is obviously just risky. The chances of us actually hitting on the hire and getting a guy who wants to stay here for the long haul and not just jump to a real basketball school after a good year or two will be so minimal. If we whiff on the hire, we're not far away from being BC IMO. BC under Skinner had nearly the exact amount of success that we've had under Brey. Even if the hire turns out well, the coach will most likely leave for greener pastures and we could be looked at as a "stepping stone" school. Brey has to be one of the only coaches in the country who would remain at ND over going to Maryland.

Brey is frustrating for sure, but he's certainly stepped it up as of late. The recruiting seems to be up a tick with the ACC move, and (you're going to hate this) I think he deserves 2-3 years to get a full roster of guys now that we're ingrained in the ACC and already have a conference championship. If these next couple years resemble the rest of Brey's tenure (outside of last year's success), then I'd be cool with making a move away from Brey. I just think it's worth seeing if the move to the ACC is what gets us from Top 25-40 program to that next level.

All fair point. I poke fun at Brey, but what proven big-time coach would want to come to ND? Maybe we should get a practice gym first lmao

 

[Irish#1]

He took UMass to two straight Elite 8s and a Final Four...

Pitino took Providence to a Final Four did he not??

Both got out of dodge right before the sheriff got to town.

 

[Irish#1]

We beat #14 Northeastern by 4 and needed overtime to win our second game against Butler.

Do you think Butler made those runs in the NCAA tournament because they ate some secret cereal for breakfast that gave them superior talent? It was 100% coaching. Xavier is the 3rd most popular team in their own town and has done dick in their history but their coach kills it and they are always overachieving.

I love Brad Stevens and believe he is as good as any coach in the country period. But it wasn't 100% coaching. He did have two NBA players on his first FF team and one on his second when they made the CG. Absolutely not a crime to lose to Butler even today. I've watched my fair share of their games and even without Stevens, they are solid. They lacked a big man this year. Otherwise they probably add 4 or 5 more wins to their record this year.

Unless it's a BIG name with a proven track record, I will say that I am not opposed to finding a good young coach with a lot of energy, much like Stevens or Vogel with the Pacers. Neither had HC experience when hired, but have done pretty good.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm not saying one is better than the other but you can't have it both ways. You basically called out Agent J for overlooking a close loss to #14 Northeastern and focusing on almost beating Kentucky yet you want to remove two full seasons of play to make Digger's record better. If you can't see the hypocrisy in your argument, then I don't know what to say.

If you don't understand why I removed his first season then you don't know basketball. Not his players. I don't talk about BK's first season either when I criticize him.

I promise to remove Brey's last season from his record when it comes to evaluating his tenure. If you remove Brey's first season, his winning percentage is 0.667. No change.

 

[gkIrish]

He's media-friendly, but I think most people recognize that, at the minimum, he's done a "pretty good" job at a school that went a full decade as a terrible program. And a school that will always be at a bit of a disadvantage with the academics and because it will forever be a "football school." I don't think Brey is a good recruiter, but we're just not going to get one-and-done kids here or any McDonalds AAs. DJ fell into our lap due to location. Basketball players aren't really the big men on campus compared to how they are at other schools obviously. And that's not really going to change with a new coach IMO.

By firing Brey, we obviously have no chance of hiring an established coach. It would be tough to lure one here anyway, but firing a well-liked coach who makes the tournament nearly every year and wins 2/3 of his games isn't going to give off much of a job-security vibe.

We'd be reduced to finding a coach from a small school. Which is fine. It is obviously just risky. The chances of us actually hitting on the hire and getting a guy who wants to stay here for the long haul and not just jump to a real basketball school after a good year or two will be so minimal. If we whiff on the hire, we're not far away from being BC IMO. BC under Skinner had nearly the exact amount of success that we've had under Brey. Even if the hire turns out well, the coach will most likely leave for greener pastures and we could be looked at as a "stepping stone" school. Brey has to be one of the only coaches in the country who would remain at ND over going to Maryland.

Brey is frustrating for sure, but he's certainly stepped it up as of late. The recruiting seems to be up a tick with the ACC move, and (you're going to hate this) I think he deserves 2-3 years to get a full roster of guys now that we're ingrained in the ACC and already have a conference championship. If these next couple years resemble the rest of Brey's tenure (outside of last year's success), then I'd be cool with making a move away from Brey. I just think it's worth seeing if the move to the ACC is what gets us from Top 25-40 program to that next level.

Fair points but I just don't think you want to be in a situation where the coach knows he can't get fired. That's what is going on here. Brey is lazy in many aspects (especially recruiting). He spends more time at Ruth's Chris than the recruiting trail.

 

[RDU Irish]

How is this even a discussion one year removed from ACC Championship and Elite Eight run that took undefeated, all-pro Kentucky to the wire? Any other bracket and we are easily a Final Four team if not CSG. And we want to fire the coach?

We just aren't that great of a team right now, Sweet 16 expectation is unreasonable based on what we are right now. However, losing the first one would definitely be a disappointment.

I didn't need to see WSJ underachiever index to know we were near the top of the list (a bit surprised Duke is on there but then again "underachieving" for a #1 seed is not making the Final Four). My gut says Big East tourney was usually just as bad as the NCAAs, would love to see someone dig up stats on that.

 

[NDPhilly]

the fact that this is a discussion after the past two years in pretty hilarious.