2016 Presidential Horse Race

[drayer54]

Are you guys even reading what I'm typing?




Wiz said Obama could do whatever he wanted, and I said that's not so true because he only had 59.

Any fault I've placed on Republicans is long-term and not having much to do with Obamacare. The Republicans have been the ones refusing to work with the Democrats during his term, and that it's largely because of the power of Fox News and other conservative media outlets. I have yet to read anything pushing back against that and points like the Norquist pledge, which is the only actual opinion I've put forth.

He did have the 60 he needed, but only for 72 days. ish.

The rest is opinion. It is just a simple point of the finger and lets pretend that "you bad guys are so stupid that you only rely on fake news, which totally invalidates everything you propose or believe." It also implies that Obama has been trying desperately to reach across the aisle and accomplish meaningful legislation, while the republicans have been thwarting his every wonderful assertive move.

Even democrats have criticized him for not being active enough with congress and being too high and mighty to work with them. This is his administration, it is on him to be the deal maker, the leader, the guy who makes things happen, and then accomplishes meaningful progress.

The norquist pledge is stupid, but to think that republicans would be calling for higher taxes or implying that we need higher taxes without it is just as stupid. At some point in time, people on the left must realize that people who fundamentally disagree with them are not doing so because of Fox News.

House Democrats can’t figure out why Obama won’t talk to them | TheHill

 

[wizards8507]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_slavery

 

[Ndaccountant]

At some point in time, people on the left must realize that people who fundamentally disagree with them are not doing so because of Fox News.

Not sure I can do that, since that is what I heard on MSNBC.

 

[wizards8507]

At some point in time, people on the left must realize that people who fundamentally disagree with them are not doing so because of Fox News.

Or talk radio. People don't listen to talk radio to be told what to think. They listen to talk radio because they already think it, and it's affirming to hear someone on that stage echo your beliefs.

 

[woolybug25]

Not sure I can do that, since that is what I heard on MSNBC.

The irony of this post.

It cracks me up that people always act like the libs are always banging the "fox news" drum. When 9 times out of 10, when you hear someone bashing the media, it's a conservative bashing the "liberal media" (ie anything that doesn't fit their agenda).

 

[wizards8507]

The irony of this post.

Ndaccountant was being sarcastic.

It cracks me up that people always act like the libs are always banging the "fox news" drum. When 9 times out of 10, when you hear someone bashing the media, it's a conservative bashing the "liberal media" (ie anything that doesn't fit their agenda).

MSNBC is not the problem with the "liberal media." The problem with the "liberal media" is ABC, NBC, CBS, MTV, Comedy Central, late night talk shows, music, movies, etc. Teenagers and young adults drive pop culture and pop culture has been saturated with secular-progressive cultural rot.

Example: If you showed an alien MTV for one week, the alien would probably think the country was 40% homosexual, 20% transgender, and 37% catfish victims.

 

[IrishLax]

Tweets and GIFs, that's what our political discourse has become. Dispute a premise if you don't like the argument. I wasn't enumerating my points for simplicity, I was enumerating my points so you can argue specific premises in your attempt to discredit my argument.

With all due respect, his gifs were actually responses to each of your premises.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_slavery

You can post all this bullshit about taxes and slavery and thievery you want, but the big picture is we live in a society where paying taxes is a duty bestowed upon all of its citizens. Without taxes, your house burns down:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/jzkYKG3cMrIwE/200_s.gifusnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

Paying taxes is not a bad thing and I'm sick of all the brainwashing.

 

[woolybug25]

Ndaccountant was being sarcastic.

Thanks for the hot tip.

MSNBC is not the problem with the "liberal media." The problem with the "liberal media" is ABC, NBC, CBS, MTV, Comedy Central, late night talk shows, music, movies, etc. Teenagers and young adults drive pop culture and pop culture has been saturated with secular-progressive cultural rot.

Example: If you showed an alien MTV for one week, the alien would probably think the country was 40% homosexual, 20% transgender, and 37% catfish victims.

It's that damn rock music and marijuana cigarettes.

 

[wizards8507]

You can post all this bullshit about taxes and slavery and thievery you want, but the big picture is we live in a society where paying taxes is a duty bestowed upon all of its citizens.

That's not an argument! Governments throughout history have imposed all sorts of awful shit on their citizens. A government saying a thing is good or the law doesn't make that thing ACTUALLY good or legitimate.

Paying taxes is not a bad thing and I'm sick of all the brainwashing.

Brainwashing? My arguments come from logic, scripture, and Enlightenment philosophy. Your argument is basically "derp, taxes."

Whiskey is getting to be the only person on this board worth disagreeing with.

It's that damn rock music and marijuana cigarettes.

Don't forget the spread offense.

 

[woolybug25]

That's not an argument! Governments throughout history have imposed all sorts of awful shit on their citizens. A government saying a thing is good or the law doesn't make that thing ACTUALLY good or legitimate.


Brainwashing? My arguments come from logic, scripture, and Enlightenment philosophy. Your argument is basically "derp, taxes."

Whiskey is getting to be the only person on this board worth disagreeing with.

Your argument is that all taxes are slavery and therefore should not exist. You use an old adage that is not only simplistic, but not remotely possible. The reason you are getting funny responses, is because your arguments are unintelligent, simplistic and not worthy of actual debate. That is also why Whiskey has not responded to them.

I'm sure that in your warped view of yourself, you somehow think your thoughts are worthy of Whiskey debating?

 

[drayer54]

Paying taxes is not a bad thing and I'm sick of all the brainwashing.

Paying taxes for national security, receiving the mail, and fixing the roads is not a bad thing. Paying taxes for the simple purposes of government and an efficient society is not a bad thing.

Paying taxes so that everyone can enjoy the same commodities or the right to not contribute in society is not ok. The problem is that the spending spree has never really stopped at the basic purposes of government. We now fund new forms of entitlements for our citizens and even those abroad in a manner that is entirely not sustainable, except in the minds of those who come to rely upon it and need more.

This country should define what an individual is entitled to and leave the rest alone. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was never intended to mean government imposed fairness for all with growing benefits.

And yes, both parties have shoved their own ideas into the mix that just don't belong.

 

[Ndaccountant]

When 9 times out of 10, when you hear someone bashing the media, it's a conservative bashing the "liberal media" (ie anything that doesn't fit their agenda).

Link?

 

[wizards8507]

Your argument is that all taxes are slavery and therefore should not exist. You use an old adage that is not only simplistic, but not remotely possible. The reason you are getting funny responses, is because your arguments are unintelligent, simplistic and not worthy of actual debate. That is also why Whiskey has responded to them.

I'm sure that in your warped view of yourself, you somehow think your thoughts are worthy of Whiskey debating?

I don't come to message boards to restate the Two Treatises of Government. John Locke already did that. What's disheartening is that so few people appear to have ever actually read texts like that. I laid out a case why taxation is prima facie slavery. Social compact theory adds legitimacy to some uses of taxation. I don't expect everyone to take fundamentalist policy positions, but I do expect people to at least have some fundamentals on which their pragmatic positions are built.

 

[woolybug25]

I don't come to message boards to restate the Two Treatises of Government. John Locke already did that. What's disheartening is that so few people appear to have ever actually read texts like that. I laid out a case why taxation is prima facie slavery. Social compact theory adds legitimacy to some uses of taxation. I don't expect everyone to take fundamentalist policy positions, but I do expect people to at least have some fundamentals on which their pragmatic positions are built.

The fact that you somehow believe that the majority of the board didn't take high school civics is beyond me. You automatically think that everyone on here is less educated than you. It's offensive and couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, you look quite silly every day when you come on here professing basic fundamentals to the board, looking down at everyone like you are some type of political savant. When in fact, nobody is misunderstanding your posts or not understanding the points you are trying to make.

It's sad, frankly...

 

[woolybug25]

Link?

9 out of 10 it's liberal media

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Any kind of major TV network is NOT "liberal media." That's another bullshit lie from the right. Those are multi-billion dollar companies. You honestly think they're liberal? They are a part of the establishment. They support the status quo in this country.

 

[wizards8507]

Any kind of major TV network is NOT "liberal media." That's another bullshit lie from the right. Those are multi-billion dollar companies. You honestly think they're liberal? They are a part of the establishment. They support the status quo in this country.

You're acting like "liberal," "establishment," and "status quo" are different things. The status quo is liberalism. The establishment is liberalism.

 

[RDU Irish]

Completing annual certification for VITA (volunteer income tax assistance) through IRS.

Question - do non-citizens with valid TIN qualify for Earned Income Credits?

Answer - yes

SMDH - tip of the iceberg too.


Bernie Sanders ad posted is a great ad.

Just because everyone isn't jumping to defend Wiz doesn't mean they agree with the lawyers on this board that (shocker) are obsessed with defending rules and regulations that increase the value of their existence. But please, take any argument to the absolute furthest pole so you don't let it impact the debate. And you wonder why all the lawyers in Washington can't fix anything.

But anyone supporting principles of basic liberty should automatically be belittled and dismissed. Make up a few 'isms for me while you are at it to validate your complete closed mindedness. Since this is an internet message board I won't be offended when you call me an unenlighted idiot or worse ... neg rep me! OMG what will I do when my internet persona loses influence amongst strangers!

 

[BleedBlueGold]

You're acting like "liberal," "establishment," and "status quo" are different things. The status quo is liberalism. The establishment is liberalism.

Hi, I'm Marve. Have we met?

 

[Cackalacky]

I don't come to message boards to restate the Two Treatises of Government. John Locke already did that. What's disheartening is that so few people appear to have ever actually read texts like that. I laid out a case why taxation is prima facie slavery. Social compact theory adds legitimacy to some uses of taxation. I don't expect everyone to take fundamentalist policy positions, but I do expect people to at least have some fundamentals on which their pragmatic positions are built.

We have had a similar discussion in the Liberalism vs Conservatism thread. I really don't think Locke's treatises are very valid especially to our current situation because his foundation for arguments are so significantly flawed. I posted this which led to some rather illuminating followup posts. Definitely worth revisiting IMO:

Still working on Locke's treatises but not surprisingly....I don't agree with his assumptions on the state of nature and its basis for the social contract or his dichotomy of the state of nature and the state of war. I agree that we have social contracts in modern society but in terms of anthropology, and therefore societies not wholly included in Western philosophy, his concept seems to miss the mark for setting up the arguments. Further, I do not agree that men are free to do as they wish. Being social creatures, humans can exist in groups, small groups even, but interactions with alien groups and with each other in the groups are natural and invariably will lead to altercations over resources. His idealist version of man is not very historically or anthropologically accurate.

Regarding his statements on self preservation, a man must inherently be aware of conflict to be interested in self preservation. In nature there is always conflict. It seems to me he imagines man as idealic and then only worried about self preservation in the face of conflict. What is refered to as "rights" seems to me a bit nebulous to. If self preservation is the default state in the absence of authority then man has the right to secure his self under any circumstances. This is inherently conflicting as a man has a right, at least in theory, to obtain necessary resources through violence or other methods. The conflict arising from the fact that some other person may claim the necessity of those resources to. Who is within their rights? Are they both within their "rights"? Outside of the social contract... rights have little meaning. He even says as much regarding aliens from other countries and that should they violate the social contract or laws that punishment should not be given (I believe I read that correctly).

I also disagree with Locke and Paines argument that humans are by default peaceful. The range of human behavior is clear through history. Peaceful societies tend not to last very long with regards to more aggressive groups or are disrupted and assimilated.

So far the basis for liberalism is wanting IMO.

So while not everyone has read Locke I think those that believe his theories to be foundation structure for basing a society on are really missing the boat in several aspects.

And we have also had similar discussions on social contract theory and the impacts/necessity of giving up personal freedoms in exchange for civil security and prosperity for all.

 

[kmoose]

Whiskey is getting to be the only person on this board worth disagreeing with.

Then it's time for you to take a break. Seriously.

 

[NorthDakota]

Any kind of major TV network is NOT "liberal media." That's another bullshit lie from the right. Those are multi-billion dollar companies. You honestly think they're liberal? They are a part of the establishment. They support the status quo in this country.

Every TV show now seems to feature a homosexual character or couple as well as trannys and/or bisexuals. They often have an epsiode or series of episodes where a pregnant girl or woman is told there is not a damn thing wrong with abortion(whether or not they murder the fictional child). Lots of stuff like that.

C'mon man. TV networks and movie studios are shamelessly left leaning.

 

[wizards8507]

We have had a similar discussion in the Liberalism vs Conservatism thread. I really don't think Locke's treatises are very valid especially to our current situation because his foundation for arguments are so significantly flawed. I posted this which led to some rather illuminating followup posts. Definitely worth revisiting IMO:

So while not everyone has read Locke I think those that believe his theories to be foundation structure for basing a society on are really missing the boat in several aspects.

And we have also had similar discussions on social contract theory and the impacts/necessity of giving up personal freedoms in exchange for civil security and prosperity for all.

This is mostly what I'm getting at. Two well-meaning people can use logic, principles, philosophy, faith, and history to reach different conclusions and then debate premises and conclusions in good faith. At the end of that discussion they still might disagree. What gets me riled up are the people whose depth of political discourse is "you're a racist because Charles Koch made you watch Rush Limbaugh waterboard an underpaid lesbian Mexican woman pregnant with an incest baby on Fox News."

FWIW, IE is a much more serious-minded community than most of the country and certainly most of the Interwebz.

 

[Cackalacky]

Every TV show now seems to feature a homosexual character or couple as well as trannys and/or bisexuals. They often have an epsiode or series of episodes where a pregnant girl or woman is told there is not a damn thing wrong with abortion(whether or not they murder the fictional child). Lots of stuff like that.

C'mon man. TV networks and movie studios are shamelessly left leaning.

Hey remember when tv show and movies had white people dress up in black face because blacks weren't allowed on tv? Those were the days.

 

[NorthDakota]

Hey remember when tv show and movies had white people dress up in black face because blacks weren't allowed on tv? Those were the days.

Thats a little before my time.

 

[woolybug25]

Every TV show now seems to feature a homosexual character or couple as well as trannys and/or bisexuals. They often have an epsiode or series of episodes where a pregnant girl or woman is told there is not a damn thing wrong with abortion(whether or not they murder the fictional child). Lots of stuff like that.

C'mon man. TV networks and movie studios are shamelessly left leaning.

Are you really saying that there shouldn't be gay people portrayed on television?

I cant recall ever seeing a show on tv where they portrayed abortion as being something to take lightly or that there "isn't a damn thing wrong with it". You must have some pretty racey tv in N Dakota.

 

[wizards8507]

Are you really saying that there shouldn't be gay people portrayed on television?

That's not what he's saying. He's saying it's disproportionate representation in the name of a political agenda.

Americans Vastly Overestimate Size of Gay and Lesbian Population - Bloomberg Politics

When polled, American's estimate that the gay population is 25% due to over-representation in pop culture. The actual number is 4%.

I cant recall ever seeing a show on tv where they portrayed abortion as being something to take lightly or that there "isn't a damn thing wrong with it". You must have some pretty racey tv in N Dakota.

Off the top of my head, Degrassi, Parenthood, The New Normal, Friday Night Lights, Girls, etc. It's always portrayed as totally normal and anyone who objects to abortion is a fundamentalist nutbag.

 

[NorthDakota]

Are you really saying that there shouldn't be gay people portrayed on television?

I cant recall ever seeing a show on tv where they portrayed abortion as being something to take lightly or that there "isn't a damn thing wrong with it". You must have some pretty racey tv in N Dakota.

I didn't say they shouldn't have gay people portrayed on television.

 

[NorthDakota]

That's not what he's saying. He's saying it's disproportionate representation in the name of a political agenda.

Americans Vastly Overestimate Size of Gay and LesbianÂ*Population - Bloomberg Politics

When polled, American's estimate that the gay population is 25% due to over-representation in pop culture. The actual number is 4%.


Off the top of my head, Degrassi, Parenthood, The New Normal, Friday Night Lights, Girls, etc. It's always portrayed as totally normal and anyone who objects to abortion is a fundamentalist nutbag.

Thank you much sir for articulating my point. Social conservatives get ripped apart in television.