2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
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Not providing alcohol to minors is most definitely "a law", and it is enforced by local law enforcement.

So now you are changing it to "every Department of Government they create infringes my liberty."?

And can you cite the specific part of the Constitution that the EPA and Ag Dept. infringe on?

And Feds coerced states to comply with a 21 year old drinking age through transportation funding. It got pretty expensive to stick to your guns that old enough to die for your country meant old enough to drink responsibly - so much that everyone eventually sat down and shut up.
 

wizards8507

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Not providing alcohol to minors is most definitely "a law", and it is enforced by local law enforcement.
I love local law enforcement. We're talking about Ted Cruz shutting down the federal government, no the municipality of Bristol, CT. I'd be much more upset if he had shut down Bristol, CT because I have volleyball through Parks and Rec tonight and my wife takes my daughter to play group on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

So now you are changing it to "every Department of Government they create infringes my liberty."?
It's the same thing. They enforce laws via federal agencies. They create agencies with a noble purpose and then those agencies grow, unchecked, like a cancer.

And can you cite the specific part of the Constitution that the EPA and Ag Dept. infringe on?
Article 1, Section 8, combined with the Tenth Amendment. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The Congress does not have the enumerated power to regulate the environment, therefore they do not have it.

You have a misguided view of the Constitution. You seem to think the Constitution says "the government can do whatever it wants unless prohibited by the Constitution," but that's backwards. The Constitution says "the people and the states can do whatever they want unless the Constitution specifically gives the federal government power over an area of their lives."
 

kmoose

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I love local law enforcement. We're talking about Ted Cruz shutting down the federal government, no the municipality of Bristol, CT. I'd be much more upset if he had shut down Bristol, CT because I have volleyball through Parks and Rec tonight and my wife takes my daughter to play group on Tuesdays and Thursdays.


It's the same thing. They enforce laws via federal agencies. They create agencies with a noble purpose and then those agencies grow, unchecked, like a cancer.


Article 1, Section 8, combined with the Tenth Amendment. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The Congress does not have the enumerated power to regulate the environment, therefore they do not have it.

You have a misguided view of the Constitution. You seem to think the Constitution says "the government can do whatever it wants unless prohibited by the Constitution," but that's backwards. The Constitution says "the people and the states can do whatever they want unless the Constitution specifically gives the federal government power over an area of their lives."

How the fuck do you know what I think about the Constitution? To be honest, it's not even about the constitution. It's about your constant bitching about the government. You know what? I hope you get the anarchy that you seem to desire so much. If it comes down to that, I am going to be the first one kicking down your door and taking both your property, AND your women. And we'll see how much you enjoy the collapse of civilized society then.

Alright, that was pretty harsh of me. But, seriously........... the only thing that keeps this country together is the collective belief in each other. And the Federal Government goes a long way to facilitating that. Otherwise, we would be a collection of States, all claiming our superiority over the others. It would be college football fandom in every single facet of society. It ain't perfect, but quit acting like you live behind the Iron Curtain, ok?
 
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NorthDakota

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How the fuck do you know what I think about the Constitution? To be honest, it's not even about the constitution. It's about your constant bitching about the government. You know what? I hope you get the anarchy that you seem to desire so much. If it comes down to that, I am going to be the first one kicking down your door and taking both your property, AND your women. And we'll see how much you enjoy the collapse of civilized society then.

Good Lord that escalated.

You both live on the East Coast? You folks even allowed to own a gun out there?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I took all the pre campaign surveys, and my score aligned with Rubio...which I think makes me a bible gun clutching conservative. But I like Kasich more than any of the rest. Operating from the premise that no candidate is perfect, I kinda look at the economy, and budget process (or lack thereof) in DC, and I'm thinking he is the guy. He would likely repurpose the DOJ from the seriously misguided beast it is. He'd pick conservative supreme court justices. He isn't a threat to the faithful...He gets foreign policy. I'm not sure what he'd do on immigration reform...specifically, and yea he took subsidies for healthcare...All things considered, he seems most complete, and experienced/competent to me.

What am I missing? I'm good with criticism, its not like he's my brother...why is he Democrat Light?

Soft on immigration and took obamacare money to expand Medicaid in OH. In 3 or 4 years the Ohio budget will EXPLODE due to this.
 

Wild Bill

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How the fuck do you know what I think about the Constitution? To be honest, it's not even about the constitution. It's about your constant bitching about the government. You know what? I hope you get the anarchy that you seem to desire so much. If it comes down to that, I am going to be the first one kicking down your door and taking both your property, AND your women. And we'll see how much you enjoy the collapse of civilized society then.


Come get mine. I hope you're a patient man. With deep pockets
 
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pkt77242

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So bipartisanship isn't necessarily a good thing; just a necessary evil when one side isn't capable of dominating the other. That theory doesn't bode well for the integrity of our republic in the future.
Didn't say that but nice try.

So you've taken the measure of why each Congressional Republican opposed Obama-care, and decided that it was merely due to bad faith obstructionism, and therefore it was OK to cram the ACA through over the objections of the duly elected representatives of half of your countrymen. Nevermind that it was a hugely polarizing issue at the time, that it was over-(if not outright fraudulently) sold, and that massive amounts of time, money and political capital were expended on something that turned out to be nothing more than, as you've admitted yourself, an (arguably) incremental improvement on a sh!tty pre-existing system.

The Republicans bear some blame for not having offered a plausible alternative to the ACA. But the Democrats bear far more blame for imposing such an atrocious piece of legislation over half the country's strenuous objections.
Making Obama a 1 term president was their priority. Stopping him from having a signature policy was their priority, making sure that no Republicans broke ranks and voted for it was their priority. I can't speak for every single individual but as far as the party goes, it sure as hell was a group doing.

So, no more Republic? If that's what you believe, try to rally the votes so the Constitution can be replaced with something more amenable to imperial centralized government. But roughly half of your countrymen are still pretty attached to this whole federal republic idea, so we need to hash this out lest we continue shouting past each other based on misconceptions of what kind of government we live under.



Does it matter that you were born into your family instead of one in central Africa? The short answer is YES, because we're getting at issues that are central to your identity. The alternative is global-citizen, universalist Progressive bullsh!t that is utterly hostile to Pietas and everything that is Good, True and Beautiful.



I draw the line well before our citizenry is so infantilized that the Federal government must step in provide for the needs of every individual citizen. Republican forms of government only work when they're supported by a virtuous, self-governing citizenry."Those who would trade liberty for safety deserve neither."

Perhaps that's why we disagree on so much. I want to live in a federal republic of mostly self-sufficient communities; you seem to prefer an empire under which each individual's basic needs are guaranteed by the imperium. Unless you're willing to redirect that political project toward your state legislature, I don't think there's any middle ground between our two positions
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First off, no one is talking about Africa but nice straw man. 2nd, the Federal Government IMHO and in that of the Supreme Court has wide latitude under the General Welfare Clause. Next, yes I think that providing basic needs is important. No one should go hungry because they can't afford food, or freeze outside in winter because they can't afford a roof over their head. Lastly your idea of living in mostly self-sufficient communities is just about impossible in this day and age. It is not compatible with how the world has changed. You seem to be holding onto the past, but the truth is we can't go back even if we wanted too. Also not every need but the basic needs, yes. Food, health, and a roof to live under. After that it is up to you to make do.

Ultimately I think that we have a responsibility to our fellow citizens to make sure that the basic needs are met (food, water, a roof to live under), that children are given a fighting chance to succeed at life (education, food and healthcare so that they can live), and I think that we are responsible not only for the people living in my community but also for all of the citizens of the U.S. At what point are we our brothers keeps? At what point do we bear responsibility for their basic needs to be met? To me the Catholic teaching on Human Dignity, says you take care of those people, that the poor aren't someone that we just throw money at, but someone that we partner with and help them to rise up from where they are at currently. I guess, how do you reconcile your beliefs that we don't need to help them with their basic needs with your beliefs as a Catholic?
 

kmoose

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A little chuckle for the day....

60% of Republican voters yesterday cast their votes for either a Hispanic or an African-American. 100% of Democrat votes went for an old white person.

:wink:
 

phgreek

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Soft on immigration and took obamacare money to expand Medicaid in OH. In 3 or 4 years the Ohio budget will EXPLODE due to this.

...I'm still not sure what he would do specifically about immigration reform. I agree it is an issue requiring a final solution. What that entails...I myself vacillate between a giant freakin wall w/ mass expulsion and something more humane to those who came here illegally. Depends on the day...:). Yes he took the money, and no I don't think he should have...but he did very well with it. In terms of being a budget buster...we'll see. He seems to think they'll have it under control. With the surplus he claims, that could be true.

But yea...those are the things I see as being his imperfections...I just see the other things he does in spades as more important...I'd like to see him a little higher in the list for consideration I guess.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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...I'm still not sure what he would do specifically about immigration reform. I agree it is an issue requiring a final solution.

Hz6WKZkKkLOE0.gif
 

GoIrish41

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...I'm still not sure what he would do specifically about immigration reform. I agree it is an issue requiring a final solution. What that entails...I myself vacillate between a giant freakin wall w/ mass expulsion and something more humane to those who came here illegally. Depends on the day...:). Yes he took the money, and no I don't think he should have...but he did very well with it. In terms of being a budget buster...we'll see. He seems to think they'll have it under control. With the surplus he claims, that could be true.

But yea...those are the things I see as being his imperfections...I just see the other things he does in spades as more important...I'd like to see him a little higher in the list for consideration I guess.

don't give Trump any ideas ...
 

wizards8507

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How the fuck do you know what I think about the Constitution? To be honest, it's not even about the constitution. It's about your constant bitching about the government. You know what? I hope you get the anarchy that you seem to desire so much. If it comes down to that, I am going to be the first one kicking down your door and taking both your property, AND your women. And we'll see how much you enjoy the collapse of civilized society then.

Alright, that was pretty harsh of me. But, seriously........... the only thing that keeps this country together is the collective belief in each other. And the Federal Government goes a long way to facilitating that. Otherwise, we would be a collection of States, all claiming our superiority over the others. It would be college football fandom in every single facet of society. It ain't perfect, but quit acting like you live behind the Iron Curtain, ok?
Then we've reached the heart of our disagreement, which appears to be as fundamental as human nature itself. I believe that people are basically good, though flawed. You see a world where everyone would be a thief and a rapist if not for the federal government. You want the government to govern. I want the government to be little more than a framework wherein people govern themselves.
 

kmoose

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Then we've reached the heart of our disagreement, which appears to be as fundamental as human nature itself. I believe that people are basically good, though flawed. You see a world where everyone would be a thief and a rapist if not for the federal government. You want the government to govern. I want the government to be little more than a framework wherein people govern themselves.

Again....... stop acting like you know me. You don't know jack about how I see other people. I think MOST people are naturally good, though flawed. But I recognize that some people are pure fucking evil, wrapped in charisma that is hard to ignore. People like Stalin, Hitler, Amin, and Mugabe. It is THOSE people that the government guards against. Once those people have a following, they grab hold of power, and once they have power, they rarely give it up; Castro, Pinochet, Zedong, the entire line of North Korean dictators in the 20th Century. Another thing to consider is this: Government IS "the people". If the electorate would pull their heads out of their asses and start voting on merit instead of a letter in parenthesis after someone's name, then you would have exactly what you are looking for. But "the people" have this insane need to be right; to be on the winning team. So they lose focus. The focus should be on who is the best qualified and/or able candidate. Instead, people focus on who can win, and their suitability for the office is completely disregarded. So blame "the people", not "the government".
 

NDVirginia19

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Wonder who the hell hes going to support... Maybe team meteor. It seems like there are no people who truly agreed with on at least a majority of the issues up there. Honestly I feel like he knows he's never going to win, he just gets up there for there to be a libertarian voice in the debates so his work in the senate can have a little more impact.
 

wizards8507

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People like Stalin, Hitler, Amin, and Mugabe. It is THOSE people that the government guards against. Once those people have a following, they grab hold of power, and once they have power, they rarely give it up; Castro, Pinochet, Zedong, the entire line of North Korean dictators in the 20th Century.
You really don't see the illogic in your post?

General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Fuhrer of Nazi Germany, President of Uganda, President of Zimbabwe, Prime Minister of Cuba, President of Chile, Chairman of the Communist Party of China, Supreme Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Governments don't guard against those people. Those people ARE governments. The governments are the abusers, not the protectors. Government is not a shield defending people from the evil and powerful. Government is the weapon wielded by the evil and powerful against the people.
 

kmoose

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You really don't see the illogic in your post?

General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Fuhrer of Nazi Germany, President of Uganda, President of Zimbabwe, Prime Minister of Cuba, President of Chile, Chairman of the Communist Party of China, Supreme Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Governments don't guard against those people. Those people ARE governments. The governments are the abusers, not the protectors. Government is not a shield defending people from the evil and powerful. Government is the weapon wielded by the evil and powerful against the people.


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that DEMOCRACY guards against those kinds of people. But you notice what is missing from that list? President of the United States. OUR government guards against those kinds of people...
 

wizards8507

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Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that DEMOCRACY guards against those kinds of people. But you notice what is missing from that list? President of the United States. OUR government guards against those kinds of people...
Soft despotism.

Alexis-de-Tocqueville-democracy-in-America.jpg
 

GoIrish41

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Again....... stop acting like you know me. You don't know jack about how I see other people. I think MOST people are naturally good, though flawed. But I recognize that some people are pure fucking evil, wrapped in charisma that is hard to ignore. People like Stalin, Hitler, Amin, and Mugabe. It is THOSE people that the government guards against. Once those people have a following, they grab hold of power, and once they have power, they rarely give it up; Castro, Pinochet, Zedong, the entire line of North Korean dictators in the 20th Century. Another thing to consider is this: Government IS "the people". If the electorate would pull their heads out of their asses and start voting on merit instead of a letter in parenthesis after someone's name, then you would have exactly what you are looking for. But "the people" have this insane need to be right; to be on the winning team. So they lose focus. The focus should be on who is the best qualified and/or able candidate. Instead, people focus on who can win, and their suitability for the office is completely disregarded. So blame "the people", not "the government".

Good post.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
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Maybe he realizes out stupid it is to run as Republican. Should have gone Indie from day one building up the ground game and leveraging his dad's network. Get over 10% in polls to make a case to be on stage with R & D in debates and you can make your mark from there. He is not going to pander to the constituencies he needs to in order to win a Republican nomination. Anti war, personal liberty, simplified tax code with purpose of neutering corporatism, fiscal conservatism, power to the states message would have a chance of getting out in a three person debate amongst people with actual differences to their policies. Stand him next to Cruz and Hillary and he starts to look pretty good.

If you don't have a chance and think you are screwing the R candidate - just back out and back them month before the election! Might actually be able to get them to latch on to one of your top issues and make a public promise to deal with it. Imagine "Well, I just don't see the path to victory and I convinced Ted to audit the Fed if he wins so I am backing him as a much better option than Hill-dog" - really don't see the downside there.
 

RDU Irish

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From the Politico article - "He's a true believer on issues of limited government and liberty issues, and I respect him for it," Rubio said.

Kind of dismissive to the concept if you ask me. You would think a freaking Cuban might appreciate limited government a good bit more than that. Up yours Marco.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Didn't say that but nice try.

You took wizards to task for praising Cruz's obstructionism, stating that people want compromise. But when I asked you how that squares with the Democrats' unilateral passage of the ACA, you indicated that they didn't have to compromise, so they were in the right. Seems to be a contradiction there, but perhaps I misread you.

Making Obama a 1 term president was their priority. Stopping him from having a signature policy was their priority, making sure that no Republicans broke ranks and voted for it was their priority. I can't speak for every single individual but as far as the party goes, it sure as hell was a group doing.

They were, by and large, representing their constituents. That's how a republic is supposed to work. If one faction proposes a policy, and another faction strongly opposes it, the elected representatives of the latter aren't doing their jobs unless they attempt to obstruct it.

First off, no one is talking about Africa but nice straw man.

It's not a straw man. You asked, "Do you really think it should matter if a person is born in rural Arkansas or NYC whether they have healthcare or not?" Yes, it matters tremendously, because rural Arkansans and New Yorkers have different values, and they should have the freedom to govern themselves accordingly.

2nd, the Federal Government IMHO and in that of the Supreme Court has wide latitude under the General Welfare Clause.

There's no way to reconcile that interpretation with an honest reading of the 10th Amendment. If you support an omnipotent Federal government, just own it and say so; but that's a far cry from the system described in our Constitution, and it's one that a huge number of your countrymen don't want to live under.

Lastly your idea of living in mostly self-sufficient communities is just about impossible in this day and age. It is not compatible with how the world has changed.

Why is that now impossible? Why aren't states capable of governing their own welfare programs or their education systems?

Ultimately I think that we have a responsibility to our fellow citizens to make sure that the basic needs are met (food, water, a roof to live under), that children are given a fighting chance to succeed at life (education, food and healthcare so that they can live), and I think that we are responsible not only for the people living in my community but also for all of the citizens of the U.S. At what point are we our brothers keeps? At what point do we bear responsibility for their basic needs to be met? To me the Catholic teaching on Human Dignity, says you take care of those people, that the poor aren't someone that we just throw money at, but someone that we partner with and help them to rise up from where they are at currently. I guess, how do you reconcile your beliefs that we don't need to help them with their basic needs with your beliefs as a Catholic?

Catholic social teaching emphasizes the communitarian, the local and the sustainable. Huge centralized institutions, whether corporate or governmental, are a threat to those values. Our welfare programs have never been more generous than they are today, and yet our culture is a debased consumerist joke and the American family has never been in worse shape. The nanny state does far more harm than good.
 

kmoose

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They were, by and large, representing their constituents. That's how a republic is supposed to work. If one faction proposes a policy, and another faction strongly opposes it, the elected representatives of the latter aren't doing their jobs unless they attempt to obstruct it.

You're a smart guy, and I respect your opinions.... but I think you couldn't be more wrong about this.

A congressman's constituents are the citizens of his/her district, which includes people from BOTH factions. So being partisan is NOT "doing their job". Being partisan only panders to those constituents of the same faction. It completely shuts out the group of constituents who belong to the other faction.
 

Whiskeyjack

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You're a smart guy, and I respect your opinions.... but I think you couldn't be more wrong about this.

A congressman's constituents are the citizens of his/her district, which includes people from BOTH factions. So being partisan is NOT "doing their job". Being partisan only panders to those constituents of the same faction. It completely shuts out the group of constituents who belong to the other faction.

When the Democrats are trying to cram through a massively unpopular (and insufficiently vetted) piece of legislation affecting a huge portion of the US economy, and your options are to vote "Yay" or "Nay", how is a Congressman supposed to simultaneously represent both Republicans and Democrats who live in his district (to say nothing of Independents, etc.)? That's one of the drawbacks of a two-party system.

As I mentioned before, the Republicans share blame for not providing a plausible alternative plan to the ACA, but I don't see how anyone can fault them for opposing it.
 
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B

Buster Bluth

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Soft despotism.

Alexis-de-Tocqueville-democracy-in-America.jpg

lol one of the biggest lessons of Tocqueville's Democracy in America was that swinging the pendulum towards individualism so far will ironically make people more dependent on government. He was quite critical of what would be called Libertarianism today.
 

wizards8507

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lol one of the biggest lessons of Tocqueville's Democracy in America was that swinging the pendulum towards individualism so far will ironically make people more dependent on government. He was quite critical of what would be called Libertarianism today.
There's a lot of intellectual space between anarchy and statism. Being critical of one does not make you an endorser of the other.
 

Rack Em

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Maybe he realizes out stupid it is to run as Republican. Should have gone Indie from day one building up the ground game and leveraging his dad's network. Get over 10% in polls to make a case to be on stage with R & D in debates and you can make your mark from there. He is not going to pander to the constituencies he needs to in order to win a Republican nomination. Anti war, personal liberty, simplified tax code with purpose of neutering corporatism, fiscal conservatism, power to the states message would have a chance of getting out in a three person debate amongst people with actual differences to their policies. Stand him next to Cruz and Hillary and he starts to look pretty good.

If you don't have a chance and think you are screwing the R candidate - just back out and back them month before the election! Might actually be able to get them to latch on to one of your top issues and make a public promise to deal with it. Imagine "Well, I just don't see the path to victory and I convinced Ted to audit the Fed if he wins so I am backing him as a much better option than Hill-dog" - really don't see the downside there.

It's really a shame he never got more traction. There are 3 candidates in this election: Bernie Sanders (socialist, ultra liberal), Rand Paul (libertarian), and everyone else (liberal). He is the ONLY candidate who actually respects the Constitution and the liberties it affords the people. He is the ONLY candidate who remotely cares about the proper use of a warrant. He is the ONLY candidate who seriously talked about devolving power away from the federal government and back to the states (see 10th Amendment). He is the ONLY candidate who would recognizes that government isn't the solution and would scale back the size of government.

Ted Cruz uses the Constitution when it's convenient or when he needs to talk tough and whip a crowd into an anti-Obama frenzy. He's a classic Tea Party conservative. "Constitution? You mean an easy, intangible tool to bludgeon Obama? Oh yeah that thing! I like that!"

The rest of the candidates wouldn't know that document from "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie" which is basically their platform to varying degrees.

It's really sad that the Paul family is viewed as politically backwards rather than politically integrous.
 

pkt77242

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It's not a straw man. You asked, "Do you really think it should matter if a person is born in rural Arkansas or NYC whether they have healthcare or not?" Yes, it matters tremendously, because rural Arkansans and New Yorkers have different values, and they should have the freedom to govern themselves accordingly.
Bringing Africa into the argument is absolutely a straw man.

Also basic needs are the same between NY and Arkansas, they need food, water, protection from the elements and a chance to better themselves (basic education) (and I think it is pretty reasonable to add healthcare into it as well, though you obviously disagree). Those are the same across all 50 of our states. Above and beyond I am open for it going to the states.



Why is that now impossible? Why aren't states capable of governing their own welfare programs or their education systems?



Catholic social teaching emphasizes the communitarian, the local and the sustainable. Huge centralized institutions, whether corporate or governmental, are a threat to those values. Our welfare programs have never been more generous than they are today, and yet our culture is a debased consumerist joke and the American family has never been in worse shape. The nanny state does far more harm than good.

This is the crux of our issue. Many states wouldn't take care of their poor people (either because they aren't willing or because they could afford it, just look at how many states get way more back in Federal dollars in comparison to what they put in). This creates haves and have nots for the poor people. For someone like you or many on this board (including me) we could easily just move to another state and find a job without an issue (a state that had what we wanted). For the poorest that isn't an option, they are the ones who would be most harmed (if they are in one of the have not states). Some states show that by under funding things such as education already or have politicians that want to reduce things such as food stamps. If you want to make an argument that anything above the basics should be handled local, then I might agree but the basics should be there for all citizens of the U.S.

Also I think that you are drawing an odd conclusion by tying welfare programs to the American family being in worse shape. I think that the rise in the attitude "that I need to get mine and fuck the others" has led the breakdown of the family unit, the rise of consumerism, etc. Welfare programs have had to increase due to the people who are being left behind in the "grab all that you can" culture. Unfortunately I don't think that it will change, though I think that it will eventually tear the country apart.
 

kmoose

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When the Democrats are trying to cram through a massively unpopular (and insufficiently vetted) piece of legislation affecting a huge portion of the US economy, and your options are to vote "Yay" or "Nay", how is a Congressman supposed to simultaneously represent both Republicans and Democrats who live in his district (to say nothing of Independents, etc.)? That's one of the drawbacks of a two-party system.

As I mentioned before, the Republicans share blame for not providing a plausible alternative plan to the ACA, but I don't see how anyone can fault them for opposing it.

I don't fault them for opposing it. I fault them for shutting down the government without even trying to come to a real compromise. And I don't really fault "the party". I fault those in the party leadership who so zealously led the charge. People like Ted Cruz.
 
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