Wisconsin Company Limits Muslim Prayers to Scheduled Breaks

[BleedBlueGold]

For sure which is why this is very interesting. I also need more info from both sides but...from the company's perspective sure that is what they are saying. From the muslim employees perspective, their faith dictates they prey at specific times, without question that don't coincide with their "breaks." Again... in the context of religious freedom that is washing over this country, should these rights be extended to the muslims who are required to pray at very specific times and are Christians who work with them less tolerant because they do not have such requirements in their faith?

I think a fair compromise would be for the company to develop a policy that allows two small breaks and one longer lunch break and they can be taken at any point during the shift. If you need to go pray, use your break and go pray.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think a fair compromise would be for the company to develop a policy that allows two small breaks and one longer lunch break and they can be taken at any point during the shift. If you need to go pray, use your break and go pray.

Yes. I agree with this, but the company did not do this apparently.

 

[Cackalacky]

Another way of saying this is that if you want to be employed by them, you have to be willing to not practice your religion unless it fits their time slots.

Some of you aren't getting that the "prayer times" are specific times in the muslim faith. There is a reason for that and you cant simply change the time. I see this going one of two ways;

1) The company is being prejudiced against their muslim workers by not letting them utilize their breaks during designed prayer times. The employer should be open to letting their muslim employees move their break times to the times designated for prayer.
2) The muslim workers are being unfair to their employer by not using their break times at the designated times for prayer. They cant have it both ways, both wanting the designated breaks, and additional breaks for prayer.

Exactly.

 

[IrishinSyria]

This is where I'm at. If the company offered to let them to flex their allowed break time and they said "nah, we want ADDITIONAL break time for our religion" that's just completely ridiculous and I don't see how anyone can side with these employees.

TBF, I wouldn't be crazy about a policy that made me choose between taking a dump and praying if I were in their shoes.

 

[IrishLax]

Exactly.

The company did or did not offer to allow the employees to flex their 15-minute breaks to fit prayer time?

 

[IrishLax]

TBF, I wouldn't be crazy about a policy that made me choose between taking a dump and praying if I were in their shoes.

Their prayers take 3-5 minutes from what I've read. If you can't take a shit in 10-12 minutes that's on you.

I don't understand the apologism for these employees if a completely workable solution was presented to them and they demanded special treatment.

 

[IrishinSyria]

The company did or did not offer to allow the employees to flex their 15-minute breaks to fit prayer time?

The article says they can only pray during meal breaks, so I assume they do not have the flexibility that option.

 

[phgreek]

I have Muslim co-workers and tbh, them going to the prayer room 5 times a day is way less hassle for me when i worked with a bunch of cigarette smokers who spent way more time AWOL because they were outside in the parking lot lighting up

This situation is crazy on 75 levels...

I agree with you...the freaking smokers are a disaster to productivity in ANY environment. Every time you break your concentration, it takes 10-15 minutes to get back in the groove...when you have something compelling your attention...like smoking, even when you are working you are thinking about the smoke break...just a damned bus wreck.

As for faith...I like to make accommodations wherein faith is supported BUT not to the point where it dominates planning and staffing...by that I mean people who build schedules have to consider an entire additional dimension of logistics based not on numbers and head count, but rather who they assign together so everything is "covered", which is undue burden...no question. Further this influences hiring decisions because you need to make sure there are complimentary employees to cover for the Muslim employees, again undue burden.

THE ONLY issue I see that makes this not a complete slam dunk in favor of the company is, they had established a practice of accommodating it up to now, so they are going to need numbers and documented impacts.

As a conservative, I will always support faith, but I see it in the work place the same way as I see it in government...it can't be the focal point of the entity. If it informs one such that he/she makes sound decisions, applies themselves as if each endeavor is pleasing a higher being, and provides mooring for determining ethical practice, I'm in. If it means you don't do your job as defined when you accepted it...we won't see eye to eye.

 

[IrishLax]

The article says they can only pray during meal breaks, so I assume they do not have the flexibility that option.

There is a poster above that said they were afforded the option of using their 15-minute breaks for the two prayer times that were during work hours. Is this correct or not?

 

[irishff1014]

Pretty easy solution to make everyone happy no matter what religion/habits/personal choices you follow or chose to do but you get 2 15 min breaks to do with as you see fit. If you want to go walk around the building for 15 mins have at it. If you want to go to your car and pray for 15 mins have at it. If you want to go sit on a park bench and read have at it. But you will get 2 and only 2 15 min breaks plus your lunch break.

 

[Cackalacky]

The company did or did not offer to allow the employees to flex their 15-minute breaks to fit prayer time?

Based on the articles, the company's new policy states that breaks are at specific times for all employees and these do not coincide with the prayer times for the Muslim employees, where previously, the Muslim employees could/did (?) leave the line and go pray for 5 minutes and returned to the line.

 

[IrishinSyria]

There is a poster above that said they were afforded the option of using their 15-minute breaks for the two prayer times that were during work hours. Is this correct or not?

These quotes from the article make no sense if he's right...

Muslim employees can only leave work to pray during meal breaks, according to a new policy imposed at Ariens Manufacturing in Brillion, Wisc.
...
“If someone tells you, ‘you pray on your break,’ and the break time is not the prayer time, it will be impossible to pray,” employee Masjid Imam Hasan Abdi told WBAY News. “If they got fired now, there’s no way they’ll get to stay in Green Bay. They’ll have to move to find work.”

 

[irishnd31]

I hate cigarette smokers.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

It sounds like prior to the policy, Muslim employees could take a quick break to pray and someone would cover for them. Then the new policy kicked in and the scheduled breaks don't coincide with the prayer times. It does not seem that the company offered the two breaks be taken at any time (prayer time).

The way I see it, that's one extreme to the other. I don't believe they should get prayer breaks AND regular breaks. I also don't believe their scheduled breaks should ignore their prayer times. Give employees two breaks that can be used whenever for whatever. Pretty simple solution if you ask me.

 

[IrishLion]

There is a poster above that said they were afforded the option of using their 15-minute breaks for the two prayer times that were during work hours. Is this correct or not?

The article makes it seem like the company was flexible, but not flexible enough.

This probably means that (1) the prayer times don't coincide with "normal" break times, and (2) the break times affect the entire production line, meaning the non-Muslim employees should be cool with either taking a break at the same time, or picking up the slack for an extra 15 mins.

Putting the context clues together, it sounds like the Muslim employees got their normal breaks, but also left the production line during prayer times, which in turn put extra strain on their coworkers.

Personally, I'd just suck it up and pick up the slack for 10 mins and let my coworkers do their thing, in an effort to be cool and reasonable to the guys I'm working with every day. But if the production line is intense, and it's a true burden on the other workers two times each day? I could see how that would get old, both to the workers and the supervisors.

 

[Cackalacky]

Pretty easy solution to make everyone happy no matter what religion/habits/personal choices you follow or chose to do but you get 2 15 min breaks to do with as you see fit. If you want to go walk around the building for 15 mins have at it. If you want to go to your car and pray for 15 mins have at it. If you want to go sit on a park bench and read have at it. But you will get 2 and only 2 15 min breaks plus your lunch break.

Not really, especially in a manufacturing plant or assembly line setting. If your job is screwing in three bolts to an assembly as it comes down the line, you would need to have someone take over or cover for you to keep the line moving. One of my summer jobs was on a assembly line that made window units for cars. Breaks were at specific times and everyone went at the same time.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yeah, it seems like the obvious "reasonable accommodation" is to allow Muslim employees to take some portion of their total break time at the proscribed prayer times. The question is whether that would amount to an undue burden on the employer because of the disruption to the production line or whatever. Given the structure of the Act, the burden is on the employer to show that it is. Since the Act clearly contemplates that employers will occasionally have to bear some burden in accommodating religious practices, I'm skeptical that this will pass muster if it ever gets litigated.

 

[phgreek]

Not really, especially in a manufacturing plant or assembly line setting. If your job is screwing in three bolts to an assembly as it comes down the line, you would need to have someone take over or cover for you to keep the line moving. One of my summer jobs was on a assembly line that made window units for cars. Breaks were at specific times and everyone went at the same time.

exactly, and breaks usually coincide with planned maintenance to the line...all this stuff is meticulously planned...adding in a variable can be painful.

 

[woolybug25]

exactly, and breaks usually coincide with planned maintenance to the line...all this stuff is meticulously planned...adding in a variable can be painful.

Has this actually been confirmed? The article states the opposite and if the company has employees requesting this, the floor manager should be able to change future break schedules to accommodate.

Some of you are acting like the muslim workers are asking them to split the atom... they

 

[T Town Tommy]

Not really, especially in a manufacturing plant or assembly line setting. If your job is screwing in three bolts to an assembly as it comes down the line, you would need to have someone take over or cover for you to keep the line moving. One of my summer jobs was on a assembly line that made window units for cars. Breaks were at specific times and everyone went at the same time.

Which is common is most manufacturing environments. Some have rotational breaks with relievers breaking you out. Maybe the company can look at that as a potential compromise if there are enough personnel to accommodate the prayer requests.

 

[woolybug25]

This is where I'm at. If the company offered to let them to flex their allowed break time and they said "nah, we want ADDITIONAL break time for our religion" that's just completely ridiculous and I don't see how anyone can side with these employees.

This is the entire argument, imo. Does anyone know the answer to this?

 

[IrishLax]

I guess my opinion can be broken down as follows:

1) If the company could not find a way to reasonably accommodate flexing some of their break time to pray, that seems pretty bad and probably discriminatory.

2) If the company did offer a reasonable solution, but the workers found it unacceptable... or the workers were taking advantage of previous accommodations made by the company and that prompted the policy change... then I don't have any sympathy for the workers.

From reading this thread and snippets online, I'm not sure whichit is right now.

 

[Wild Bill]

Which is common is most manufacturing environments. Some have rotational breaks with relievers breaking you out. Maybe the company can look at that as a potential compromise if there are enough personnel to accommodate the prayer requests.

Maybe they'll consider setting break times based on muslim prayer times. Everyone still gets their break, muslim employees get to pray and Ariens isn't coming out of pocket to litigate and/or re-hire/re-train. Could create some other issues but it seems like the logical option from an outside perspective.

 

[T Town Tommy]

This is the entire argument, imo. Does anyone know the answer to this?

Don't know.

However, depending on the state, break times are defined as a benefit and not a right depending on hours worked. If this company has no legal obligation to even offer breaks under the law, then the whole debate is meaningless. They could simply choose to eliminate the break "benefit."

Our company provides two ten minute breaks with a 30 minute unpaid lunch. The breaks are paid time and therefore a benefit. The company, under Alabama law, has no legal obligation to provide the two ten minute breaks.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Maybe they'll consider setting break times based on muslim prayer times. Everyone still gets their break, muslim employees get to pray and Ariens isn't coming out of pocket to litigate and/or re-hire/re-train. Could create some other issues but it seems like the logical option from an outside perspective.

Yep... if it is a doable solution I would at least try that.

 

[IrishLion]

Maybe they'll consider setting break times based on muslim prayer times. Everyone still gets their break, muslim employees get to pray and Ariens isn't coming out of pocket to litigate and/or re-hire/re-train. Could create some other issues but it seems like the logical option from an outside perspective.

Yep... if it is a doable solution I would at least try that.

I'm thinking that this is where the problem comes from, though. I'm sure it would have been their first solution if it were reasonable, but I'm thinking that the prayer times occur at a time that would not be a standard break time for the rest of the employees.

Like, I don't want to take my 15 minute break after I've only worked for an hour. But if that's prayer time, you either make everyone take their break after one hour on the job, or you tell the Muslim employees, "sorry, but your required prayer times don't work with the break schedule desired by the majority."

 

[Cackalacky]

Maybe they'll consider setting break times based on muslim prayer times. Everyone still gets their break, muslim employees get to pray and Ariens isn't coming out of pocket to litigate and/or re-hire/re-train. Could create some other issues but it seems like the logical option from an outside perspective.

Thier prayer times change through out the year.

 

[Cackalacky]

Don't know.

However, depending on the state, break times are defined as a benefit and not a right depending on hours worked. If this company has no legal obligation to even offer breaks under the law, then the whole debate is meaningless. They could simply choose to eliminate the break "benefit."

Our company provides two ten minute breaks with a 30 minute unpaid lunch. The breaks are paid time and therefore a benefit. The company, under Alabama law, has no legal obligation to provide the two ten minute breaks.

Agree, but is their not having access to pray at the time required by their faith a violation of religious freedom?

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Thier prayer times change through out the year.

Allah is a picky dude

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think a fair compromise would be for the company to develop a policy that allows two small breaks and one longer lunch break and they can be taken at any point during the shift. If you need to go pray, use your break and go pray.

That would be pretty difficult to do, at least from a scheduling perspective. That has financial waste written all over it.