Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[woolybug25]

Are you considering that our opponents (averaging the 70th best defense) played us, thus making our ranking better?

It goes both ways. That's why you just take it on its face.

It does go both ways, the best offenses in the country have played worse defenses than us. So how is your argument remotely accurate?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Are you considering that our opponents (averaging the 70th best defense) played us, thus making our ranking better?

It goes both ways. That's why you just take it on its face.

If I had time, I'd like to check into average ranking w/o facing ND's offense. Just out of curiosity.

However, see Wooly's post. ND facing on average the 70th best defense is much stronger than what Baylor, TCU, etc have played. I'd say ND's offense is doing just fine.

 

[gkIrish]

Questionable at times? Yes. But that's an argument that can be made about every single coach in the country.

Your post is filled with "considerings." That's the underlying issue. People are more willing to make excuses for mediocrity. I place the onus on BK for the lack of depth at QB and the lack of supervision academically on players and the failure to hold on to players like Gunner Kiel. He's the head coach.

 

[woolybug25]

If I had time, I'd like to check into average ranking w/o facing ND's offense. Just out of curiosity.

However, see Wooly's post. ND facing on average the 70th best defense is much stronger than what Baylor, TCU, etc have played. I'd say ND's offense is doing just fine.

This is what I was talking about, GK. Most of the arguments you are making require a great deal of effort to debunk. So it gets increasingly frustrating to the board when they do so and then it is disregarded. Only to have you move to another opinion in which you demand the board to disprove by doing a large amount of data compiling.

Do you see what i'm saying or am I wasting my breath?

 

[MNIrishman]

Your post is filled with "considerings." That's the underlying issue. People are more willing to make excuses for mediocrity. I place the onus on BK for the lack of depth at QB and the lack of supervision academically on players and the failure to hold on to players like Gunner Kiel. He's the head coach.

Wait, I'm confused. So context matters when it comes to our great offense, but can be ignored when it comes to player attrition?

 

[Irish#1]

Your post is filled with "considerings." That's the underlying issue. People are more willing to make excuses for mediocrity. I place the onus on BK for the lack of depth at QB and the lack of supervision academically on players and the failure to hold on to players like Gunner Kiel. He's the head coach.

The article referenced this year as being historic, not the past years. So you want to debunk this theory by saying "yeah but, in previous years....."? No one around here disagrees that the previous years have left something to be desired. Seems you're just looking for something to argue about.

 

[gkIrish]

Here are the top three teams and the scoring offenses they have played.

Baylor
SMU - 125
Lamar - N/A
Rice - 108
TxTech - 122
Kansas - 123
WV - 74
Avg - 110

Texas Tech
Sam Houston - N/A
UTEP - 117
Arkansas - 45
TCU - 73
Baylor - 61
Iowa St - 111
Kansas - 123
Avg - 88

TCU
@
Minnesota - 27
Stephen F. Austin - N/A
SMU - 125
Texas Tech - 122
Texas - 113
Kansas State - 90
Iowa State - 111
Avg 98

We have played significantly better defenses than these teams, and they are each even getting a bump for playing a team that isn't even ranked in the NCAA total defense. So again, your argument isn't consistent with what is actually going on with the rest of college football. Another manufactured argument for you to disregard and move on to another.

C'mon man...

You're making this waaayy more complicated than it needs to be. I can use specific examples to make your theory look bad too! Let's look at Alabama

Wisconsin- 3
Georgia - 25
Ole Miss - 40 (who played the #4 offense in the country btw)
Arkansas- 45
Texas A&M - 54
Middle Tennessee - 82
UL- Monroe - 117

Average of 52.

Alabama is the #32 offense in the country. According to your argument they look relatively better offensively than we do!

 

[yankeeND]

The article referenced this year as being historic, not the past years. So you want to debunk this theory by saying "yeah but, in previous years....."? No one around here disagrees that the previous years have left something to be desired. Seems you're just looking for something to argue about.

It's about the fact that adjustments have been made. You are right, the past raised a lot of questions. This year Kelly is answering the bell. I can understand him feeling that way about the past, but if he would just look at what is happening this year, he would see that Kelly is taking the necessary steps that he is looking for. I think you made a really good observation here, and I just think a lot of things that are happening are being overlooked that should help with many of the concerns being raised in this thread.

 

[gkIrish]

This is what I was talking about, GK. Most of the arguments you are making require a great deal of effort to debunk. So it gets increasingly frustrating to the board when they do so and then it is disregarded. Only to have you move to another opinion in which you demand the board to disprove by doing a large amount of data compiling.

Do you see what i'm saying or am I wasting my breath?

Dude, if you take out the UMass game from our offensive ranks, we wouldn't look nearly as good. That's the same thing as taking out ND from the other teams rankings.

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[ACamp1900]

This is what I was talking about, GK. Most of the arguments you are making require a great deal of effort to debunk. So it gets increasingly frustrating to the board when they do so and then it is disregarded. Only to have you move to another opinion in which you demand the board to disprove by doing a large amount of data compiling.

Do you see what i'm saying or am I wasting my breath?

To each their own of course... but this sums up why I gave up taking most actual debates, political, social, sports, whatever, on this board seriously a number of years ago... I come here to let off steam not add to the pressure...

 

[gkIrish]

Wait, I'm confused. So context matters when it comes to our great offense, but can be ignored when it comes to player attrition?

The article referenced this year as being historic, not the past years. So you want to debunk this theory by saying "yeah but, in previous years....."? No one around here disagrees that the previous years have left something to be desired. Seems you're just looking for something to argue about.

There are three separate arguments:

1) This season's offensive performance is historic
-My argument = offense has been very good, but not historic. We have played terrible defenses.

2) Playcalling this season has been good
-I generally agree

3) Playcalling since 2010 has been good considering all the things BK has to deal with
-I disagree. Using my eyes, I know that the playcalling was generally bad for 5 years. The excuses for why the playcalling was bad are ultimately BK's fault.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Kmoose, I share, as do others, similar thoughts on revisiting BK, the staff, and this team. I'm not trying to sound like I'm defending GK, altho I can see that side of it.
As far as your long post, that pretty much sums up the problem with this thread. GK never said he wanted him to be fired, nor did anyone else, but the blind supporters, and as you just did, push that narrative.
Irrational take on his tenure as a coach? Pretty simple for me, we are averaging just over 8 wins a year. That's mediocre and unacceptable for me as a program. 2012 sure looks like an exception right now, not the norm. When that becomes the norm, or 10 wins consistently in the regular season, I'll be happy.
We still have critical drives stopped by 3rd and 3 and spreading the field with and incomplete pass. Or running a jet sweep multiple times that has never worked. There should be nothing wrong with criticism on something that's shot this team in the foot at times.
And then there's Golson. I don't think Jimbo is a better coach. I just think Kelly failed that situation and the team suffered because of it.
As far as revisiting BK, I probably have more posts in this thread doing so than the several posters who've posted way more than I.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm starting to severely procrastinate at my job, which I just started in June. Can't take the time to respond to every post which just keeps repeating that I don't make sense and want to fire Kelly. I just can't. So if you guys want to pile on, be my guest.

 

[IrishLion]

Your post is filled with "considerings." That's the underlying issue. People are more willing to make excuses for mediocrity. I place the onus on BK for the lack of depth at QB and the lack of supervision academically on players and the failure to hold on to players like Gunner Kiel. He's the head coach.

Okay, but that doesn't mean the playcalling was horrible. Does it? I dispute your argument that the playcalling prior to 2015 was horrible by citing evidence as to why it wasn't based on the QB situation, and you answer with "lack of depth" and "supervision."

I say the playcalling has been decent-to-great since BK got here, precisely BECAUSE of the QB situation constantly changing.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm starting to severely procrastinate at my job, which I just started in June. Can't take the time to respond to every post which just keeps repeating that I don't make sense and want to fire Kelly. I just can't. So if you guys want to pile on, be my guest.

But everyone else needs to breakdown every offense above us to prove we aren't underperforming and if anyone disagrees with you they need to go through 40some pages of the thread and prove it? Otherwise they are just accusing you of hating BK for no reason?

You've really positioned this thread as a win-win for yourself. lol

 

[arrowryan]

Kelly is, by far, the best coach Notre Dame has had since Holtz. With players making dumb ass decisions in the classroom and admissions always giving him bullshit, I'm not sure there very many coaches that could be doing a better job than BK.

And he has done a masterful job coaching this current team considering how many injuries piled up during the first month. Just goes to show how much depth that has been built since the Alabama game. I remember BK saying that was the biggest thing he learned from that game (building more depth across every position). Man, he has certainly done that

 

[IrishLion]

I just think it's ridiculous to say that the playcalling has been horrible prior to 2015 lol.

2010 - Crist was developing well before hurt; Rees had no business directing the offense as well as he did late in the year as a freshman

2011 - Again, the statue with the noodle arm put up great numbers because of BK's offense and playcalling. The redzone offense is the only gripe, but that doesn't make the offense "horrible." Far from it.

2012 - BK's first shot at using his own QB. Went very well. Called plays conservative early, managed Golson well when he struggled, used Rees effectively, called plays brilliantly late in the year when Golson was turning it on. But yes, the playcalling is horrible.

2013 - Another year, another season to be amazed on how effective a statue with a noodle arm can truly be when BK is running the offense. More turnover woes in the redzone, which is a problem, but again, I don't think playcalling was close to "horrible" at any point.

2014 - The worst year for playcalling because of how BK managed Golson... but considering how effective the offense was when Golson was holding onto the ball, I still don't think it was "horrible."

There are isolated examples of questionable calls in every season, but that is true for literally every program/coach in the country. But I don't think there is enough evidence of "what the f*ck are you doing?" during BK's time at ND to say that the playcalling, as a whole, has ever been "horrible."

 

[woolybug25]

GK - Playcalling is HORRIBLE!

IE - We have a statistically good offense

GK - But look at who we played!

IE - It's just as good or, in most cases, better than the teams ranked above us.

GK - But BAMA!

IE - [/blank stare]

GK - Ok. Thanks. Gotta go. Bye.

 

[connor_in]

To each their own of course... but this sums up why I gave up taking most actual debates, political, social, sports, whatever, on this board seriously a number of years ago... I come here to let off steam not add to the pressure...

 

[kmoose]

As far as your long post, that pretty much sums up the problem with this thread. GK never said he wanted him to be fired, nor did anyone else, but the blind supporters, and as you just did, push that narrative.

I'm not going to speak for anyone but myself, but this is bullsh!t. I did not "push the narrative that gk called for BK to be fired." I simply responded to the assertion that he did not ask for him to be fired, but that others have accused him of it. In fact, the OP could easily be construed as just that. Like I said......... I don't care if he is, or isn't, calling for Kelly to be fired.

Irrational take on his tenure as a coach? Pretty simple for me, we are averaging just over 8 wins a year. That's mediocre and unacceptable for me as a program. 2012 sure looks like an exception right now, not the norm. When that becomes the norm, or 10 wins consistently in the regular season, I'll be happy.

Look up, pal......... your chances of seeing God are better. Do you have any idea how hard it is to average 10 wins a year in this era of college football? How many years between major scandals/sanctions are you willing to go, to average 10 wins a year? I would LOVE for ND to average 10 wins a year, long term, but NOT if it means compromising the principles that made me a Notre Dame fan in the first place.

We still have critical drives stopped by 3rd and 3 and spreading the field with and incomplete pass. Or running a jet sweep multiple times that has never worked. There should be nothing wrong with criticism on something that's shot this team in the foot at times.

CJ Prosise had 10 carries in 2014. I doubt anyone would disagree that every one of those carries was likely a jet sweep. Prosise averaged 12.6 yards per carry. So I would say that the jet sweep was not an overall unsuccessful play in 2014.

And then there's Golson. I don't think Jimbo is a better coach. I just think Kelly failed that situation and the team suffered because of it.

Gotcha. So Brett Favre failed at Atlanta because Jerry Glanville was a bad coach. Maybe Golson is doing better in Tallahassee because he doesn't have to do as much? Maybe it has nothing to do with Kelly botching it up, and everything to do with the players around him? What, exactly, did Kelly do to fail at that situation?

EDIT: I just wanted to also point out that ND has converted 36 of 84 3rd down attempts. Granted, the 42.9% conversion rate is pretty mediocre, but it does put us in the top half of FBS schools. Couple that with the fact that ND's 84 3rd conversion attempts is good for 102nd in FBS (meaning that only 18 teams have attempted fewer 3rd downs), and you can reasonably conclude that ND is MUCH better than average on 1st and 2nd down, meaning that they aren't needing 3 downs to make a 1st down, generally. For context, ND is 15th in the FBS in the number of first downs gained. So we are moving the ball and getting plenty of first downs, despite pretty average performance on 3rd down.

 

[wizards8507]

Look up, pal......... your chances of seeing God are better. Do you have any idea how hard it is to average 10 wins a year in this era of college football? How many years between major scandals/sanctions are you willing to go, to average 10 wins a year? I would LOVE for ND to average 10 wins a year, long term, but NOT if it means compromising the principles that made me a Notre Dame fan in the first place.

This is such cynical bullshit. I refuse to accept that football talent is some how positively correlated with being a shitty human being. There's no reason for me to believe that five star recruits are only interested in hookers, cocaine, and skipping class. There's plenty of talent out there for us to field 10 win teams with RKGs, especially when we're uniquely positioned in the marketplace such that we stand alone for kids who are making a forty year decision.

Maybe Golson is doing better in Tallahassee because he doesn't have to do as much?

Then Kelly should have seen that and stopped ASKING him to do so much. We could all see it. He was drowning in Kelly's offense. Kelly adjusted his playbook for Tommy Rees but refused to acknowledge that Golson had limitations.

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm not going to speak for anyone but myself, but this is bullsh!t. I did not "push the narrative that gk called for BK to be fired." I simply responded to the assertion that he did not ask for him to be fired, but that others have accused him of it. In fact, the OP could easily be construed as just that. Like I said......... I don't care if he is, or isn't, calling for Kelly to be fired.




Look up, pal......... your chances of seeing God are better. Do you have any idea how hard it is to average 10 wins a year in this era of college football? How many years between major scandals/sanctions are you willing to go, to average 10 wins a year? I would LOVE for ND to average 10 wins a year, long term, but NOT if it means compromising the principles that made me a Notre Dame fan in the first place.


CJ Prosise had 10 carries in 2014. I doubt anyone would disagree that every one of those carries was likely a jet sweep. Prosise averaged 12.6 yards per carry. So I would say that the jet sweep was not an overall unsuccessful play in 2014.



Gotcha. So Brett Favre failed at Atlanta because Jerry Glanville was a bad coach. Maybe Golson is doing better in Tallahassee because he doesn't have to do as much? Maybe it has nothing to do with Kelly botching it up, and everything to do with the players around him? What, exactly, did Kelly do to fail at that situation?

FWIW, Stanford has 62 wins since 2009, 6 six seasons. Thats an average of 10.3/season.

 

[woolybug25]

FWIW, Stanford has 62 wins since 2009, 6 six seasons. Thats an average of 10.3/season.

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that there is only one active coach (Urbie) in all of college football that has averaged 10+ wins a season for his career. If we are in one breath saying, "you have to look at their entire tenure", then we can't cherry pick 6 seasons of successful programs (and two coaches in that period), and claim that is the minimum bar for for our coach's success. If that was the case, then guys like Saban, Stoops and Jimbo wouldn't have jobs right now.

 

[kmoose]

FWIW, Stanford has 62 wins since 2009, 6 six seasons. Thats an average of 10.3/season.

I never said it was impossible. I said it was HARD. That doesn't mean that we should strive for it. But it does mean that if that is all that will make you happy as a fan, is averaging 10 wins a year, then you better prepare yourself for a lot of unhappiness.

 

[wizards8507]

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that there is only one active coach (Urbie) in all of college football that has averaged 10+ wins a season for his career. If we are in one breath saying, "you have to look at their entire tenure", then we can't cherry pick 6 seasons of successful programs (and two coaches in that period), and claim that is the minimum bar for for our coach's success. If that was the case, then guys like Saban, Stoops and Jimbo wouldn't have jobs right now.

I think there's a middle ground between "cherry pick the best seasons" and "include every single season of the guy's career." Brian Kelly going 8-5 in 2010 is awesome. Brian Kelly going 8-5 in 2014 is decidedly less awesome.

 

[Luckylucci]

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that there is only one active coach (Urbie) in all of college football that has averaged 10+ wins a season for his career. If we are in one breath saying, "you have to look at their entire tenure", then we can't cherry pick 6 seasons of successful programs (and two coaches in that period), and claim that is the minimum bar for for our coach's success. If that was the case, then guys like Saban, Stoops and Jimbo wouldn't have jobs right now.

This thread is so hot that everybody is just breathing fire at each other. Just pointing out that its not impossible and has been done recently by another reputable university.

So, I didn't get lumped into this it might have been a good idea to say that Kelly is at 9/season during his tenure at ND.

I think this season Kelly has done a fantastic job with this team. I do not believe his entire tenure has been this way though. Last season, as an example, could've been handled differently, IMO. Big picture 9 is solid.

Lastly, I don't think expecting over a 5-7 year window averaging 10 wins is too much. A lot of schools are doing that.

 

[Irish Insanity]

FWIW, Stanford has 62 wins since 2009, 6 six seasons. Thats an average of 10.3/season.

Clemson, Bama, Northern Illinois, IIRC they all have averaged 10+ for the last 5 seasons or something.

 

[Luckylucci]

I never said it was impossible. I said it was HARD. That doesn't mean that we should strive for it. But it does mean that if that is all that will make you happy as a fan, is averaging 10 wins a year, then you better prepare yourself for a lot of unhappiness.

So what should we strive for?

Again, I'm not on the kick Kelly to the curb train here but this statement is quite silly. Coach Kelly, himself, says that he's here and his guys are here to win championships. So, by his standards 9 wins is not getting the job done, right?

 

[kmoose]

This is such cynical bullshit. I refuse to accept that football talent is some how positively correlated with being a shitty human being. There's no reason for me to believe that five star recruits are only interested in hookers, cocaine, and skipping class. There's plenty of talent out there for us to field 10 win teams with RKGs, especially when we're uniquely positioned in the marketplace such that we stand alone for kids who are making a forty year decision.

Cynical, or realistic? We've had 6 players suspended, in 2 different scandals, for academic impropriety in the last 2 seasons and we've only averaged 8.5 wins. How many more will it take, to make up that extra 1.5 games a year?

Then Kelly should have seen that and stopped ASKING him to do so much. We could all see it. He was drowning in Kelly's offense. Kelly adjusted his playbook for Tommy Rees but refused to acknowledge that Golson had limitations.

Maybe Kelly didn't have the same type of personnel around Golson? Maybe circumstances dictated that Golson NEEDED to do more?

 

[kmoose]

So what should we strive for?

Again, I'm not on the kick Kelly to the curb train here but this statement is quite silly. Coach Kelly, himself, says that he's here and his guys are here to win championships. So, by his standards 9 wins is not getting the job done, right?

Sorry............... that should have read "that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for it". My bad.