Oregon Community college shooting

[IrishJayhawk]

Except that operating a motor vehicle isn't a Constitutionally protected right. But piss on the Constitution, right? That dusty old document isn't good for anything but wiping your ass anyways.

Edited

Here's the thing...things change. We can amend the constitution when new data emerge.

 

[potownhero]

Dumbest things I have ever heard.

Then you should get out more.


Question: How many lives are saved by guns?

"Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.

Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock."

Read more: RealClearPolitics - Opinion, News, Analysis, Videos and Polls

 

[Irish Insanity]

I would imagine those stats are very skewed by the fact more criminals use guns, or weapons, in acts of violence than victims own them who are attacked.

 

[wizards8507]

Some bad guys have them, yes. But more bad guys will have them if everyone could get them. Which in turn would create more random acts for gun violence. You do see that right?

I disagree. It's no harder to get a gun illegally than it is legally. There are zero potential murderers out there who are going to sell "well I really want to murder a bunch of people but damn if those background checks are too much of a pain in the ass." Give me a break.

 

[ColinKSU]

Then you should get out more.


Question: How many lives are saved by guns?

"Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.

Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock."

Read more: RealClearPolitics - Opinion, News, Analysis, Videos and Polls

Deaths from gun violence vs. deaths from terrorism, in one chart - Vox

"Dozens" does not accurately describe the statistics.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Well I sincerely hope you never have a home invader or something of the sort because it sounds like you'd be unprepared to deal with such things.

I've found with firearms that the people who are most fearful of them are simply the people who have never handled one or had any experience with them. Guns aren't that scary after you've fired one.

Personal responsibility, man. Yes, you should seek out training to be a responsible gun owner. No, I don't think such things should be mandated by force of law.

Gee thanks for your ridiculous assumption of me.

I'm not afraid of guns and yes, I've had plenty of practice with them.

Going through a safety course and getting a license should absolutely be required. It shouldn't even be a debate.

 

[wizards8507]

Deaths from gun violence vs. deaths from terrorism, in one chart - Vox

"Dozens" does not accurately describe the statistics.

I'd prefer to focus on innocent victims if you don't mind. That means 100% of terrorism victims and some tiny fraction of gun violence victims. I couldn't care less if the bangers in Chicago are shooting each other.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Then you should get out more.


Question: How many lives are saved by guns?

"Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.

Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock."

Read more: RealClearPolitics - Opinion, News, Analysis, Videos and Polls

Self-defense from....?.....oh yea, probably someone else with a gun.

 

[Corry]

Well I sincerely hope you never have a home invader or something of the sort because it sounds like you'd be unprepared to deal with such things.

SO now we need to walk around our house with a freaking gun, and sleep with it on our night stand? Dude come on. I get it, you have a right to own a gun. But, what about my right to not get shot in the face? Some how we live in a world where former supersedes the latter.

 

[cody1smith]

I live in Michigan. I purchased my firearm in less than 10 mins at my local store.
I filled out an app/check online at a computer inside the store. Within 5 mins they called the agency and my gun was purchased and I walked out with it that day.
No training required to own or use.
Obviously if there is some sort of red flag, you get refused completely or have a waiting period.
However, if I was an angry person that day I could've been in and out in 10 mins and committed the crime of my choice at will. I'd feel safer if there was more of a process to get it.

Right like buying drugs. If the laws were stricter it would just increase the bootlegging. Let it go. Pray for the families

 

[BleedBlueGold]

The point of the second amendment is that not all rights of self-defense should be the exclusive domain of the government. If you want to own a gun, are willing to go through the training to operate it safely, have no history of mental/anger issues, and are willing to suffer the consequences for mishandling the weapon or allowing an untrained person access, then I see no reason that should be illegal. My father in law conceal-carries all the time. I have no reservation in saying that he'd be a good guy to have around if there was a shooter.

The key point though is that he's well-trained, responsible, doesn't flaunt his gun, and has no history of mental illness. He goes to the range regularly to practice. He actually teaches gun safety courses. That's the kind of guy I want walking around with guns. Freaking Texas yahoos showing off m4s in McDonalds can go fuck themselves.

Who pays for such training, services, jobs? Trump already wants to cut taxes even further. Where's the money coming from to train and employ all of these "good guys?"

 

[ColinKSU]

I'd prefer to focus on innocent victims if you don't mind. That means 100% of terrorism victims and some tiny fraction of gun violence victims. I couldn't care less if the bangers in Chicago are shooting each other.

Clearly, we disagree on a lot of things.

 

[BGIF]

Then you should get out more.


Question: How many lives are saved by guns?

"Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.

Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock."

Read more: RealClearPolitics - Opinion, News, Analysis, Videos and Polls

My math may be fuzzy but isn't 4-6% of 300 million people, 12-18 million peeps?

Divided by 5 that's a yearly average of 2.4-3.6 million defensive uses of guns per year, or 6,600-9,900 per DAY!


Sounds like they're including the gang bangers, drug dealers, and muggers shooting back, as well as, all the troops we have stationed overseas in harms way.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

My math may be fuzzy but isn't 4-6% of 300 million people, 12-18 million peeps?

Divided by 5 that's a yearly average of 2.4-3.6 million defensive uses of guns per year. Sounds like they're including the gang bangers, drug dealers, and muggers shooting back, as well as, all the troops we have stationed overseas in harms way.

Huge numbers. They're not correct, but they're sure huge!

Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA - LA Times

Coincidentally, just 13 hours before those atrocious killings [Charleston], the Violence Policy Center released a fresh analysis of federal crime and health data that explores how often potential victims actually turned the tables. Parsing 2012 numbers, the center counted 259 justifiable gun-related homicides, or incidents in which authorities ruled that killings occurred in self-defense.
That’s in a nation in which there are some 300 million firearms, nearly one for every person (though only a little over a third of Americans own guns — and there’s an interesting take on that here, and on the ramifications of gun ownership on murder rates here, and while you’re reading links, this is of interest, too). This is also a nation in which, in 2012, there were 1.2 million violent crimes, defined as murder, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. Or, put another way, 1.2 million scenarios in which there was potential for someone to kill in self-defense.

Oh, and match those 259 justifiable homicides with the theft of about 232,000 guns each year, about 172,000 of them during burglaries. That’s a ratio of one justifiable homicide for every 896 guns put in the hands of criminals.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Here are some more huge numbers:

NRA membership dues skyrocketed by a staggering 62% in the year after Sandy Hook, from $108 million to $176 million. Total revenue in 2013 hit a third of a billion dollars.

As a result, the massive organization saw profits — excuse me, “surpluses” — rocket 2,750% to $57 million.

Of course, that’s before taxes. But, then, it didn’t pay any taxes, for it is a nonprofit charity.

The NRA estimates it was also helped by 150,000 volunteers. How many corporations could boast as much?

The NRA top executives shared that year in a treasure chest of more than $8 million in salary, bonuses, nontaxable benefits, deferred pay and other compensation — a nice payout for an organization that enjoys charitable exemption from U.S. taxes. LaPierre alone made a million bucks a year, which is, ironically, equal to about $100 for every man, woman and child murdered with a gun in America.

 

[MNIrishman]

Who pays for such training, services, jobs? Trump already wants to cut taxes even further. Where's the money coming from to train and employ all of these "good guys?"

This objection makes no sense. Where's the money coming from for driver's ed? What about getting a driver's license? Where's the money coming from for concealed carry permits now? It comes from people who want to own a firearm. It's a weighty responsibility; there's no reason it should be taxpayer funded nor did I imply such.

 

[BGIF]

Who pays for such training, services, jobs? Trump already wants to cut taxes even further. Where's the money coming from to train and employ all of these "good guys?"

They're not employed by the Federal government nor any other governmental entity. His father-in-law paid for his own training like many others. They didn't wait for a federal welfare gun training program to be put in place. Do you really want the people that brought us "Fast and Furious" to be teaching gun safety?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

This objection makes no sense. Where's the money coming from for driver's ed? What about getting a driver's license? Where's the money coming from for concealed carry permits now? It comes from people who want to own a firearm. It's a weighty responsibility; there's no reason it should be taxpayer funded nor did I imply such.

Do you think training should be compulsory?

 

[MNIrishman]

Huge numbers. They're not correct, but they're sure huge!

Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA - LA Times

A person using a gun in self-defense doesn't want to fire it, and if he does desire to kill someone, he shouldn't own a firearm.The "justifiable homicide" statistic doesn't count the number of times someone stopped a crime by showing that they were CAPABLE of defending themselves without actually discharging the weapon. Hell, that doesn't even count non-fatal discharges. Speak softly and carry a big stick...

 

[pkt77242]

Then you should get out more.


Question: How many lives are saved by guns?

"Surveys of American gun owners have found that 4 to 6 percent reported using a gun in self-defense within the previous five years. That is not a very high percentage but, in a country with 300 million people, that works out to hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns per year.

Yet we almost never hear about these hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns from the media, which will report the killing of a dozen people endlessly around the clock."

Read more: RealClearPolitics - Opinion, News, Analysis, Videos and Polls

Two flaws with that survey.
1st, what people consider to be "defensive" isn't always defensive. We have a tendency to view our actions "positively".

2nd and probably most importantly people who are armed are more likely to make people act aggressively. Carrying a gun gives someone a sense of being protected so they are more likely to escalate situations instead of walking away or diffusing the situation. A person might use a gun defensively after they get into a situation that they never would have had they not been carrying the gun.

Having said that people do use their gun for defensive purposes and most people aren't calling for guns to be banned. We are calling for a sane conversation about guns and gun violence.

Also since people do become more aggressive around guns (not just when you are holding one, but it can also make the people around you more aggressive) is why I think there is a fallacy around the more guns the safer that we will be. I think that while they might be able to stop a few of these mass shootings quicker, it will lead to more day to day violence.

 

[pkt77242]

A person using a gun in self-defense doesn't want to fire it, and if he does desire to kill someone, he shouldn't own a firearm.The "justifiable homicide" statistic doesn't count the number of times someone stopped a crime by showing that they were CAPABLE of defending themselves without actually discharging the weapon. Hell, that doesn't even count non-fatal discharges. Speak softly and carry a big stick...

That might be your view, but that doesn't necessarily make it true for everyone (or even a majority of people).

 

[MNIrishman]

Do you think training should be compulsory?

I think some degree of certification should be required, like with a GA pilot's license. You don't have to go to flight school if you already learned how to fly in the military. In the same way, you shouldn't need to take a remedial course on firearms. HOWEVER, you should have to pass a test (not written, administered in person as a practical) to demonstrate that you know how to shoot, how to handle your weapon, how to store ammo safely, how to use the safety, how to NOT POINT THE GUN AT SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE FUCKING SAFETY IN, and all that. Like a driver's test. Then you should have to keep your hours up at the range and pass re-cert's regularly. Medical conditions need to be taken into account. If you're blind or practically blind, I have real reservations about your firearm rights. These costs should be borne by the gun owner.

 

[MNIrishman]

That might be your view, but that doesn't necessarily make it true for everyone (or even a majority of people).

How many people do you know who are just itching for an excuse to commit murder?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

This objection makes no sense. Where's the money coming from for driver's ed? What about getting a driver's license? Where's the money coming from for concealed carry permits now? It comes from people who want to own a firearm. It's a weighty responsibility; there's no reason it should be taxpayer funded nor did I imply such.

They're not employed by the Federal government nor any other governmental entity. His father-in-law paid for his own training like many others. They didn't wait for a federal welfare gun training program to be put in place. Do you really want the people that brought us "Fast and Furious" to be teaching gun safety?

My assumption is that we were discussing armed security guards. Is that not the case?

 

[pkt77242]

How many people do you know who are just itching for an excuse to commit murder?

I think that I am more getting at that people carrying a gun are more likely (not that everyone will but many will) to act aggressive which leads to more confrontations, which leads to more violence. Not so much that they want to commit murder, but that the gun makes them feel like a "bad ass" (actual words used by an employee of mine) and thus leads to more "defensive" uses of the gun. I more take issue with the statement that they don't want to use it (again not all people but enough that it is problematic).

ETA: I should have done a better job with my bolding.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Right like buying drugs. If the laws were stricter it would just increase the bootlegging. Let it go. Pray for the families

Let it go?

That was the first post I've had on the topic smart guy.

And I didn't call for any stricter laws.

I'd be all for a waiting period after an application tho.

 

[BGIF]

Do you think training should be compulsory?

I do. But then I also believe driver training should be mandatory, and licensed driver's should be re-certified due to vision deficiencies, mental capacity diminishment, physical impairment, loss of eye/hand coordination, loss of flexibility (head swivel to look around), and lack of knowledge of changing driving laws from 60 years ago.

We slaughter tens of thousands of people a year in cars with people who shouldn't be behind the wheel but we don't do a thing about it. It's accepted collateral damage.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, driving isn't. All the deficiencies I mentioned above are cause for pilots of even single seater aircraft to lose their ticket to pilot a plane. And they have to go through annual physicals. Commercial pilots have physicals twice a year.

 

[Southside Sully]

The point of the second amendment is that not all rights of self-defense should be the exclusive domain of the government. If you want to own a gun, are willing to go through the training to operate it safely, have no history of mental/anger issues, and are willing to suffer the consequences for mishandling the weapon or allowing an untrained person access, then I see no reason that should be illegal. My father in law conceal-carries all the time. I have no reservation in saying that he'd be a good guy to have around if there was a shooter.

The key point though is that he's well-trained, responsible, doesn't flaunt his gun, and has no history of mental illness. He goes to the range regularly to practice. He actually teaches gun safety courses. That's the kind of guy I want walking around with guns. Freaking Texas yahoos showing off m4s in McDonalds can go fuck themselves.

Just as i mentioned in my post above.. Read this article about the 2nd Amendment, it is not for just packing heat, its to arm your self for a militia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html

 

[MNIrishman]

I think that I am more getting at that people carrying a gun are more likely (not that everyone will but many will) to act aggressive which leads to more confrontations, which leads to more violence. Not so much that they want to commit murder, but that the gun makes them feel like a "bad ass" (actual words used by an employee of mine) and thus leads to more "defensive" uses of the gun. I more take issue with the statement that they don't want to use it (again not all people but enough that it is problematic).

ETA: I should have done a better job with my bolding.

Showing off with dangerous things is how people get killed.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think some degree of certification should be required, like with a GA pilot's license. You don't have to go to flight school if you already learned how to fly in the military. In the same way, you shouldn't need to take a remedial course on firearms. HOWEVER, you should have to pass a test (not written, administered in person as a practical) to demonstrate that you know how to shoot, how to handle your weapon, how to store ammo safely, how to use the safety, how to NOT POINT THE GUN AT SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE FUCKING SAFETY IN, and all that. Like a driver's test. Then you should have to keep your hours up at the range and pass re-cert's regularly. Medical conditions need to be taken into account. If you're blind or practically blind, I have real reservations about your firearm rights. These costs should be borne by the gun owner.

Wizards officially thinks you don't care about the constitution.