Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[gkIrish]

Ben Councell (4)
Eilar Hardy (4)
Stephon Tuitt (5)
Ishaq Williams (5)
Aaron Lynch (4)
Sheldon Day (4)
Jarron Jones (4)
Keivarae Russell (4)
Elijah Shumate (4)
Max Redfield (5)
Jaylon Smith (5)
Cole Luke (4)
Doug Randolph (4)
Isaac Rochell (4)
Jay Hayes (4)
Nyles Morgan (4)
Nick Watkins (4)
Josh Barajas (4)
Asmar Bilal (4)
Tevon Coney (4)
Shaun Crawford (4)
Jerry Tillery (4)
Mykelti Williams (4)


These are all 4 and 5 star defensive guys recruited by ND under Kelly. So, as far as recruiting the defense goes, he's not exactly been a failure there.

I never said he didn't recruit 4 or 5 star players. Someone else did. I said our defensive recruiting sucks because we take guys that aren't actually very good, despite whatever star ranking they have.

Take LB for example. You remove Jaylon from the equation (pretty sure Shembo was a Weis guy but if not then you can add him to the list) and who has he recruited at LB that turned out to be an elite player? Every single LB was either a bust or someone that transferred. It's too early to tell with the freshman and sophomores.

 

[RDU Irish]

Why can those kids produce in other systems but our guys are always confused and slow to react? Perfect system with shitty execution is WAY worse than a shitty system with perfect execution.

 

[koonja]

I'm not mad at all, Koon. You are the one that can't stop posting about it. I was very clear in all of my posts and if you can't see what I was addressing (again, it's intellectually dishonest, you know what you're doing), then simply go read through our exchange.

I'm perfectly happy not debating with you, I said that in my last post in fact. I debate others in a calm and polite way every single day. It seems like the only time someone quits being civil is when it comes to you.

But i'm sure you're right... it's always someone else, right?

I have no idea what you're referring to. GK made a point, I agreed, you jumped. What is my intention besides discussing the defensive side of the ball before you again went off on me? You're missing. Sometimes when I agree with a point, I'm just agreeing with a point. But you never seem to see it that way.

It's not a debate. It's you trying to subtly insult me. That's not a debate, that's someone trying to hash out some issues they have on a message board. It's happened 3 times FROM you since the Texas game and I never start it or fire back.

There's a handful of members on this site who will try to nit pic everything I post and try to start something. I won't name them. But you seem to now be one. It's fine, nothing I'm not used to. But none of this in the last page is my fault, that's obvious to impartial eyes.

 

[RDU Irish]

I never said he didn't recruit 4 or 5 star players. Someone else did. I said our defensive recruiting sucks because we take guys that aren't actually very good, despite whatever star ranking they have.

Take LB for example. You remove Jaylon from the equation (pretty sure Shembo was a Weis guy but if not then you can add him to the list) and who has he recruited at LB that turned out to be an elite player? Every single LB was either a bust or someone that transferred. It's too early to tell with the freshman and sophomores.

Doesn't this point just reinforce the system point? Why is it so damn complicate that Nyles Morgan can't line up and slobber knock some foes? KVR and Luke are shut down corners? Well put them on a damn island and shut down their guys and stop getting cute with whatever other coverage you are making them do.

Defensive coaching is frustrating to no end. This is a valid area of criticism but you will never convince me it is because we lack the talent. 95% of the teams out there do as well or better with MUCH less talent.

 

[ThePiombino]

I never said he didn't recruit 4 or 5 star players. Someone else did. I said our defensive recruiting sucks because we take guys that aren't actually very good, despite whatever star ranking they have.

Take LB for example. You remove Jaylon from the equation (pretty sure Shembo was a Weis guy but if not then you can add him to the list) and who has he recruited at LB that turned out to be an elite player? Every single LB was either a bust or someone that transferred. It's too early to tell with the freshman and sophomores.

Maybe we just need to arrange for someone to steal Morgan's bike seat. Just a thought...

 

[PANDFAN]

Doesn't this point just reinforce the system point? Why is it so damn complicate that Nyles Morgan can't line up and slobber knock some foes? KVR and Luke are shut down corners? Well put them on a damn island and shut down their guys and stop getting cute with whatever other coverage you are making them do.

Defensive coaching is frustrating to no end. This is a valid area of criticism but you will never convince me it is because we lack the talent. 95% of the teams out there do as well or better with MUCH less talent.

did you not watch the virginia game? they were in man coverage for a lot of the game and were torched!

 

[gkIrish]

Doesn't this point just reinforce the system point? Why is it so damn complicate that Nyles Morgan can't line up and slobber knock some foes? KVR and Luke are shut down corners? Well put them on a damn island and shut down their guys and stop getting cute with whatever other coverage you are making them do.

Defensive coaching is frustrating to no end. This is a valid area of criticism but you will never convince me it is because we lack the talent. 95% of the teams out there do as well or better with MUCH less talent.

To this point the absolute collapse of our defense after Joe Schmidt went down last year was probably one of the best examples of coaching failure under BK's tenure. I still find it utterly insane that we went from a pretty great defense to a pretty terrible one because one player went down.

I understand we had some other injuries last year, too, but to not spend every possible minute getting Nyles Morgan ready to run the defense was a complete failure. And if he isn't capable of doing that, that's a failure of recruiting. Either way it was on the staff.

 

[IrishLion]

95% of the teams out there do as well or better with MUCH less talent.

95% of the defenses in the country are better than ND?

 

[ThePiombino]

To this point the absolute collapse of our defense after Joe Schmidt went down last year was probably one of the best examples of coaching failure under BK's tenure. I still find it utterly insane that we went from a pretty great defense to a pretty terrible one because one player went down.

I understand we had some other injuries last year, too, but to not spend every possible minute getting Nyles Morgan ready to run the defense was a complete failure. And if he isn't capable of doing that, that's a failure of recruiting. Either way it was on the staff.

I think we were just exposed once we started playing tempo teams - see N.Carolina. Once teams realized tempo was our achilles, we were done for. Schmidt was just the icing on the cake, but the cake was already baked IMO.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think we were just exposed once we started playing tempo teams - see N.Carolina. Once teams realized tempo was our achilles, we were done for. Schmidt was just the icing on the cake, but the cake was already baked IMO.

I don't want to speak for GK but I think this even further proves his point. It doesn't matter what it was, the result was terrible. So whatever you want to attribute it to, one way or another it goes back to the responsibility of the coaches.

Ex. it shouldn't have taken 1/2 a football season to figure this out.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't want to speak for GK but I think this even further proves his point. It doesn't matter what it was, the result was terrible. So whatever you want to attribute it to, one way or another it goes back to the responsibility of the coaches.

Always have the authority to speak on my behalf Lucci

 

[tussin]

Break that down by defense and see what you get since that's the specific side were discussing. That overall number is inflated by BK's success recruiting offensive players, some of which transfer out which I'm not blaming him for. But if you want to do a defensive comparison of where we'd be compared to an arbitrary list of 'top 10' programs, it'll look different.

So I have a slow day at work and decided to take you up on that. I compared the defensive recruits of ND and FSU. FSU has won big recently and I would guess many think FSU recruits at a much higher level (particularly on defense). Surprise, surprise, the composite rating averages are not much different over the past four years:

 

[woolybug25]

I have no idea what you're referring to. GK made a point, I agreed, you jumped. What is my intention besides discussing the defensive side of the ball before you again went off on me? You're missing. Sometimes when I agree with a point, I'm just agreeing with a point. But you never seem to see it that way.

I never "went off" on you. I calmly and clearly pointed out how you were incorrect. Then you slightly changed your comment. Then I pointed it out again. Then you changed it again. Finally I bullet pointed exactly how the exchange went. It's all there, Koon.

It's not a debate. It's you trying to subtly insult me. That's not a debate, that's someone trying to hash out some issues they have on a message board. It's happened 3 times FROM you since the Texas game and I never start it or fire back.

The only insult made was when you called me an "ass" and a "jerk". Again, read the posts.

There's a handful of members on this site who will try to nit pic everything I post and try to start something. I won't name them. But you seem to now be one. It's fine, nothing I'm not used to. But none of this in the last page is my fault, that's obvious to impartial eyes.

You're always a victim aren't you?


Just for clarity, as you seem unable to be reasonable about the exchange, here is an outline.

Koon: "From BK's recruits, we're littered with 3-star players, two elite recruits (Jaylon/Redfield), and a few somewhat-big time players"
Wooly: "Here are 16 players recruited by BK that are better than 4 stars"

Koon: "No, that's not what I meant... Not enough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list."
Wooly: "Also not true, Alabama had the #1 class and only had 5"

Koon: "NO... what I really meant was that you want that across all 11 with a few exceptions."
Wooly: "Koon... we have a 4 star or better at every single position group"

Koon: "Why are you such an ass? Why can't you be civil?"
Wooly: "I am being civil"

Koon: "You are just trying to subtly insult me. You and a few other meanies are always picking on me"
Wooly: "Ok then..."

 

[Irish Insanity]

It's not a coincidence that you are ALWAYS on the side of an outlandish opinion.

What do you consider an outlandish opinion? Any that don't align with yours.....

Why can those kids produce in other systems but our guys are always confused and slow to react? Perfect system with shitty execution is WAY worse than a shitty system with perfect execution.

Exactly

 

[ThePiombino]

I don't want to speak for GK but I think this even further proves his point. It doesn't matter what it was, the result was terrible. So whatever you want to attribute it to, one way or another it goes back to the responsibility of the coaches.

Ex. it shouldn't have taken 1/2 a football season to figure this out.

I agree that there's a problem with the defense. And I firmly believe BVG is that problem. I, however, have no doubt BK is the best person for the job at this time. If, after this season, BVG has no improved markedly and BK doesn't do right by the team and replace him, then maybe I'll have a bone to pick with BK.

 

[woolybug25]

What do you consider an outlandish opinion? Any that don't align with yours.....

Where did I say anyone outside of Koon was outlandish? I disagreed with several posts, but I never said that people aren't entitled to their opinion. Hell, GKirish is my boy... and we disagree with eachother on this. It doesn't have to be hostile debate, dude.

 

[koonja]

I never "went off" on you. I calmly and clearly pointed out how you were incorrect. Then you slightly changed your comment. Then I pointed it out again. Then you changed it again. Finally I bullet pointed exactly how the exchange went. It's all there, Koon.



The only insult made was when you called me an "ass" and a "jerk". Again, read the posts.



You're always a victim aren't you?


Just for clarity, as you seem unable to be reasonable about the exchange, here is an outline.

Koon: "From BK's recruits, we're littered with 3-star players, two elite recruits (Jaylon/Redfield), and a few somewhat-big time players"
Wooly: "Here are 16 players recruited by BK that are better than 4 stars"

Koon: "No, that's not what I meant... Not enough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list."
Wooly: "Also not true, Alabama had the #1 class and only had 5"

Koon: "NO... what I really meant was that you want that across all 11 with a few exceptions."
Wooly: "Koon... we have a 4 star or better at every single position group"

Koon: "Why are you such an ass? Why can't you be civil?"
Wooly: "I am being civil"

Koon: "You are just trying to subtly insult me. You and a few other meanies are always picking on me"
Wooly: "Ok then..."

Re read without paraphrasing to your own narrative. Also, never called you an 'ass' - that's something you made up. You need to chill, your initial response to me was ridiculous and trolling for an argument, which I need no part of. I'll respond to insults when I can, that doesn't mean I'm stooping to your level. I never start it. I'm not making myself the victim - you are by coming at me like that for no reason other than you don't like mine and other's opinion. Since, you know, the original opinion wasn't even mine, I was just agreeing with him.

 

[Ndaccountant]

So I have a slow day at work and decided to take you up on that. I compared the defensive recruits of ND and FSU. FSU has won big recently and I would guess many think FSU recruits at a much higher level (particularly on defense). Surprise, surprise, the composite rating averages are not much different over the past four years:

Average is one thing, but top end talent is another. For example, FSU has 7 guys over .99 to ND's 1. 0.98 to 0.99 FSU had 2, ND had 1. So, for very top end talent, ND had 2 guys compared to 9 for FSU.

 

[IrishLion]

 

[Luckylucci]

I agree that there's a problem with the defense. And I firmly believe BVG is that problem. I, however, have no doubt BK is the best person for the job at this time. If, after this season, BVG has no improved markedly and BK doesn't do right by the team and replace him, then maybe I'll have a bone to pick with BK.

I agree with this. We still have a lot to fight for this year and a coach of BVG's experience level very well could turn this around fairly dramatically. So, I'm going to hold out until then. However, I think those that question our current coaching staff have valid reasons to do so.

 

[woolybug25]

Re read without paraphrasing to your own narrative. Also, never called you an 'ass' - that's something you made up. You need to chill, your initial response to me was ridiculous and trolling for an argument, which I need no part of. I'll respond to insults when I can, that doesn't mean I'm stooping to your level. I never start it. I'm not making myself the victim - you are by coming at me like that for no reason other than you don't like mine and other's opinion. Since, you know, the original opinion wasn't even mine, I was just agreeing with him.

[/slumps shoulders] Koon... I am chill. Couldn't be more "chill". There is literally nothing to "stoop to", as I never insulted you. You called me names... remember?

It's all there, dude. People can make whatever they want out of little exchange and I am okay with that. I've said my peace with you. If you want to continue playing the victim card (don't act like you're not, just one post ago you were asking me why I am always picking on you) then go right ahead. If someone wants to ride with you, then that's fine with me too. I'm literally not looking for anyone to agree with me. I'm just pointing out what is clearly posted over the last few pages.

 

[ND NYC]

can someone light a candle in the grotto for my sanity

thx!

 

[Irish#1]

It's the same chicken-little, negative energy BS we go through every single time we have something tough happen. Suddenly people cannot resist wanting to fire the coach. Been the same story for as long as i've been alive.

Thus why I hope GT gets destroyed and this thread slithers away. Too many people think beating UVA on a last second TD is the end of ND football. Look at the positive. The team got mentally flat because they lost their starting QB, but then they fought back and won with the backup QB. I'm pretty sure the HC has something to do with getting these guys to stick with it.

 

[Luckylucci]

Average is one thing, but top end talent is another. For example, FSU has 7 guys over .99 to ND's 1. 0.98 to 0.99 FSU had 2, ND had 1. So, for very top end talent, ND had 2 guys compared to 9 for FSU.

I can understand this point but that definitely illustrates that there is enough talent on the team to win with. It may not justify saying we recruit as well as FSU but I don't think thats what he was trying to say. I think he was just picking another successful team and showing how we match up.

 

[dad4aa]

I get tired of hearing how BK "only" led us to one championship game in 5 years. If we remember, Golson was kicked out after our championship run which hurt us drastically in 2013.

Then we were going to make a run in 2014 and we lost the frozen five. Regardless of that, we still had a strong run going up through the FSU game and then all of the injuries started adding up on top of the frozen five and we just didn't have the personnel or experience to continue the run.

Now we come to 2015 and a lot of hype surrounding ND football and, once again, disaster strikes and we lose 5 starters by our second game...yet we are still undefeated.

None of this has to do with coaching (sure people can speculate that players aren't being developed but that is purely speculation with no facts to back it up). We have student athletes here that are held accountable. BK cannot follow all of them around and make sure they stay eligible and do their own work. We also cannot put bubble wrap on our players so they don't get injured. It is a part of the game.

In regards to the other complaints like playing Schmidt over Morgan...none of us know the reason. Rees played over Golson and spelled Golson during our championship run because Golson struggled to learn the offense and there were times in 2012 Golson could not read the defense to make the proper audibles. I have never heard BK say Schmidt is playing because he is better than Morgan...only that he is the one that gets the defense into the right position. If that is required of his role and Morgan cannot do that, then Morgan does not replace him, period. Joe is the QB of the defense and his replacement needs to be able to take over the reins and run the defense.

I, like many others posting in this thread, am still optimistic about our chances. Good teams find a way to win. They also catch some breaks. Hopefully the football gods will smile on us the rest of the season and we will be injury free. But we are undefeated and until we have knocked ourselves out of the playoff picture, I will have hope.

 

[Dizzyphil]

vs. Texas, the defense held rushing to 60 yards and passing to 103.
vs. Virginia, the defense held rushing to 127 yards but they had passing of 289
There was one pass of 19 yards that was tipped – would have thrown anyone off.
Three trips to the red-zone in the first quarter resulted in 12 points.
ND was held scoreless in the second quarter and only scored in the last 20ish seconds of the 4th quarter.
Why is there so much emphasis that the defensive scheme or the lack thereof is the majority of the issue?

 

[Ndaccountant]

I can understand this point but that definitely illustrates that there is enough talent on the team to win with. It may not justify saying we recruit as well as FSU but I don't think thats what he was trying to say. I think he was just picking another successful team and showing how we match up.

I guess I look at it differently. Look at the difference Manti and Tuitt made in 2012. Think about how much worse off the defense would have been last year without Jaylon. Those are the guys I am referencing. It takes that level of player to field a defense worthy of winning a championship. Now, I know it's too much to ask for ND to land 9 of them in a 4 year cycle. But two is too few.

To be clear, I am not saying talent voids are the sole problem. I do believe that to get to championship level defense, we need 3 or 4 "studs" on defense that are true difference makers, like the ones I mentioned above. We are not there, BVG scheme or not.

 

[ND NYC]

if TCU had gone undefeated in the regular season in 2012, they would already have a statue at Gate D for Kelly...

don't underestimate the fickle finger of fate/good luck/bad luck can play in all of this

truly believe we have been on the wrong side of all of it in his tenure, and despite that, BK (and Jack) has had a great run, gotten us back to where we all want to be.

 

[Luckylucci]

vs. Texas, the defense held rushing to 60 yards and passing to 103.
vs. Virginia, the defense held rushing to 127 yards but they had passing of 289
There was one pass of 19 yards that was tipped – would have thrown anyone off.
Three trips to the red-zone in the first quarter resulted in 12 points.
ND was held scoreless in the second quarter and only scored in the last 20ish seconds of the 4th quarter.
Why is there so much emphasis that the defensive scheme or the lack thereof is the majority of the issue?

This doesn't tell the whole story. QB completed 68.5% of his passes, thats an very high number. You can then also look at comparisons. UCLA held them to 98 and 238. John's only completed 60% of his passes and his QBR was 60 versus 71. You could also just watch the game and look at specific plays and scenarios. Trust me there are quite a few head scratchers.

 

[Luckylucci]

I guess I look at it differently. Look at the difference Manti and Tuitt made in 2012. Think about how much worse off the defense would have been last year without Jaylon. Those are the guys I am referencing. It takes that level of player to field a defense worthy of winning a championship. Now, I know it's too much to ask for ND to land 9 of them in a 4 year cycle. But two is too few.

To be clear, I am not saying talent voids are the sole problem. I do believe that to get to championship level defense, we need 3 or 4 "studs" on defense that are true difference makers, like the ones I mentioned above. We are not there, BVG scheme or not.

I'm not even at that point right now. I'm saying that we have enough talent to win 10+ games every year. We have enough of D to field a top 25-30 group, every year. Heck we still can, lets see where we go from here.