Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[woolybug25]

There was a thread last year. Probably the year before too.
And afain, when has anyone called for his firing.

Even after 2012.

The fact remains that people on here are going to question him as our coach every single season we don't win a championship. That's a crappy way to go through life and not a realistic way to look at a staff of any team in the country.

 

[Irish Insanity]

What in the hell are you talking about?

Outside of the obvious Jaylon/Redfield, he recruited:

Stephon Tuitt
Ishaq Williams
He who shant be named
Sheldon Day
Keivarea Russell
Jarron Jones
Isaac Rochell
Doug Randolph
Cole Luke
Andrew Trumbetti
Nick Watkins
Niles Morgan
Jay Hayes
Josh Barajas
Shaun Crawford
Jerry Tillery
Asmar Bilal

All 4 star or better, all with composites over .900. Say what you want about development, but if that isn't good enough recruiting for you then I don't know what you expect at a university with academic standards. He has brought more highly touted defensive talent to this team than the last three coaches combined.

Look at that long list of players. Then look at our D every year (with the exception of 2012).....

 

[RDU Irish]

What in the hell are you talking about?

Outside of the obvious Jaylon/Redfield, he recruited:

Stephon Tuitt
Ishaq Williams
He who shant be named
Sheldon Day
Keivarea Russell
Jarron Jones
Isaac Rochell
Doug Randolph
Cole Luke
Andrew Trumbetti
Nick Watkins
Niles Morgan
Jay Hayes
Josh Barajas
Shaun Crawford
Jerry Tillery
Asmar Bilal

All 4 star or better, all with composites over .900. Say what you want about development, but if that isn't good enough recruiting for you then I don't know what you expect at a university with academic standards. He has brought more highly touted defensive talent to this team than the last three coaches combined.[/QUOTE]

in GK's defense, the bolded standard is pretty easy to trip over.

 

[koonja]

What in the hell are you talking about?

Outside of the obvious Jaylon/Redfield, he recruited:

Stephon Tuitt
Ishaq Williams
He who shant be named
Sheldon Day
Keivarea Russell
Jarron Jones
Isaac Rochell
Doug Randolph
Cole Luke
Andrew Trumbetti
Nick Watkins
Niles Morgan
Jay Hayes
Josh Barajas
Shaun Crawford
Jerry Tillery
Asmar Bilal

All 4 star or better, all with composites over .900. Say what you want about development, but if that isn't good enough recruiting for you then I don't know what you expect at a university with academic standards. He has brought more highly touted defensive talent to this team than the last three coaches combined.

You're looking over a 5 year span. Not enough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list.

That's what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[tussin]

Yeah Koon, you should back off that one:

 

[ACamp1900]

You're looking over a 5 year span. Not cenough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list.

That's what the hell I'm talking about.

Stud linebackers hardly ever play school...

 

[tussin]

You're looking over a 5 year span. Not enough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list.

That's what the hell I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter if Bill Belichick is our coach. ND will never recruit like Bama or OSU.

 

[woolybug25]

You're looking over a 5 year span. Not cenough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list.

That's what the hell I'm talking about.

Alabama had the #1 recruiting class in the country last year and had five guys with .900 or better on the defense. Most of which wouldn't qualify academically at Notre Dame.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Even after 2012.

The fact remains that people on here are going to question him as our coach every single season we don't win a championship. That's a crappy way to go through life and not a realistic way to look at a staff of any team in the country.

If he was winning 10 games a year or more, I don't think this thread exists. The fact that he has done that once in five full seasons is troubling. Sure, he may have laid a foundation, but at some point your have to build on it and we are still waiting for it.

Now, having said that, he has been dealt some shitty cards. He has done an admirable job playing those hands most of the time. But there are always a few hands that he seemingly overplays or simply flat out blows. I can understand people being tired of it and questioning him for it.

 

[RDU Irish]

Look at that long list of players. Then look at our D every year (with the exception of 2012).....

Our D was the nuts last year.... until the injury bug turned it into a third string shell of itself that gave up a record number of points over a six game stretch...ever.

I get the fire and ice criticism, it is frustrating and I would like to think our third string can beat UNC and keep most opponents from scoring 40 points. Reality is those players are just not developed enough and few teams are asked to dig that deep into their roster.

I think we also discount the all or nothing nature of our situation. Once we lose two, wtf difference does losing a couple more really make? We are probably quicker to play for the future than many other teams, and err on the side of benching some nicked up players.

 

[kmoose]

Agree to disagree. That's part of a foundation. Unfortunately he's missing about 2/3 of the other parts:... defensive recruiting...

Ben Councell (4)
Eilar Hardy (4)
Stephon Tuitt (5)
Ishaq Williams (5)
Aaron Lynch (4)
Sheldon Day (4)
Jarron Jones (4)
Keivarae Russell (4)
Elijah Shumate (4)
Max Redfield (5)
Jaylon Smith (5)
Cole Luke (4)
Doug Randolph (4)
Isaac Rochell (4)
Jay Hayes (4)
Nyles Morgan (4)
Nick Watkins (4)
Josh Barajas (4)
Asmar Bilal (4)
Tevon Coney (4)
Shaun Crawford (4)
Jerry Tillery (4)
Mykelti Williams (4)


These are all 4 and 5 star defensive guys recruited by ND under Kelly. So, as far as recruiting the defense goes, he's not exactly been a failure there.

 

[ACamp1900]

If he was winning 10 games a year or more, I don't think this thread exists. The fact that he has done that once in five full seasons is troubling. Sure, he may have laid a foundation, but at some point your have to build on it and we are still waiting for it.

Now, having said that, he has been dealt some shitty cards. He has done an admirable job playing those hands most of the time. But there are always a few hands that he seemingly overplays or simply flat out blows. I can understand people being tired of it and questioning him for it.

This is exactly where I am at... I see both sides but this post nails it for me.

 

[RDU Irish]

Bama and OSU also get to cut ten guys a year that aren't panning out, then fill some gaps with Jucos. We have talked those points to death in other threads, but failure to acknowledge any increase in odds for "failed" seasons as a result of these dynamics is intellectually dishonest. We will have more variability of outcomes and a negatively skewed distribution.

 

[koonja]

Alabama had the #1 recruiting class in the country last year and had five guys with .900 or better on the defense. Most of which wouldn't qualify academically at Notre Dame.

That was a light year for them on defense, and they still had 3 players who would be considered 'elite', 5 star type guys, which is the same amount as I have for BK currently (Jaylon, Redfield, Morgan?).

Look at their 2014 class. It blows everything out of the water in comparison to our defensibe recuriting. Yes, some wouldn't qualify, but BK finds big talent on offense, so I don't fully buy that excuse as the sole reason for the difference in defensive talent.

Alabama 2014 Football Commits

 

[woolybug25]

You're looking over a 5 year span. Not enough defensive talent IMO to play championship football. Some teams bringing in 10 guys a year that would make your list.

That's what the hell I'm talking about.

To add to my post above, which just clearly disproves your sentiment, I would also like to add that your original post claimed we had "3 star players littered all over the defense", which is completely innacurate. Considering we have a .900+ rated player starting in every single position group.

That's the thing with arguing with you. You are physically unable to be intellectually honest with your arguments. It's always the same progression:

1) Outlandish Koon proclamation
2) Rational poster shows proof to why Koon is incorrect
3) Koon follows with "moving the goal post back" post that claims he meant something different.
4) Rational poster proves that incorrect
5) Koon starts posting additional comments filled with gems like "drama mama", "ish" and "take a lap" until he passes out.

Debating with you is like wrestling a pig. It should always be avoided, as both parties end up covered with mud and the pig likes it...

 

[Ndaccountant]

This is exactly where I am at... I see both sides but this post nails it for me.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If he was winning 10 games a year or more, I don't think this thread exists. The fact that he has done that once in five full seasons is troubling. Sure, he may have laid a foundation, but at some point your have to build on it and we are still waiting for it.

Now, having said that, he has been dealt some shitty cards. He has done an admirable job playing those hands most of the time. But there are always a few hands that he seemingly overplays or simply flat out blows. I can understand people being tired of it and questioning him for it.

Great post. Exactly my thoughts. One of my earlier posts clearly outlined my expectations for ND. It's not yearly championships. It's perennial top 10, 10-win, seasons with the occasional Final Four visit. I happen to think that all "championship" caliber teams need to be in this category. You can't always win championships, but this criteria increases your odds greatly and it's exactly where I'd like ND to be. BK has done it once. Yes, he's been dealt a couple crap years, but after awhile I get sick of the excuses. Turnovers, injuries, suspensions, transfers, wrong QB, no defense...what's left? We've heard them all at this point.

 

[palinurus]

This is exactly where I am at... I see both sides but this post nails it for me.

Me, too. There's a gap between national titles every year and 4 losses every year but one out of five. Again, to me, we're enough better, with enough prospects for getting even better, that I'm not ready to pull the trigger, but not sufficiently excellent (as I think there has been enough time for us to be) that I think we should all just sit down and shut up.

 

[koonja]

To add to my post above, which just clearly disproves your sentiment, I would also like to add that your original post claimed we had "3 star players littered all over the defense", which is completely innacurate. Considering we have a .900+ rated player starting in every single position group.

That's the thing with arguing with you. You are physically unable to be intellectually honest with your arguments. It's always the same progression:

1) Outlandish Koon proclamation
2) Rational poster shows proof to why Koon is incorrect
3) Koon follows with "moving the goal post back" post that claims he meant something different.
4) Rational poster proves that incorrect
5) Koon starts posting additional comments filled with gems like "drama mama", "ish" and "take a lap" until he passes out.

Debating with you is like wrestling a pig. It should always be avoided, as both parties end up covered with mud and the pig likes it...

You didn't disprove my sentiment at all. Maybe in your opinion. And having 'A' .90 plus rated player starting at every position GROUP is nothing - Kentucky can probably claim that.

You want that across all 11 with a few exceptions. Furthermore, you want them as back ups so we don't go to another 3 star with 10 offers when ish goes down. You're severely underselling the player ratings that exist in bug time programs on defense.

And thanks for insult, what's that the 3rd of the week from you to me? But yeah, you didn't prove anything. Stay classy.

 

[palinurus]

Yeah Koon, you should back off that one:

I realize this post goes to the "we're not recruiting well" point, and I think Kelly DOES recruit pretty well (though I think it's reasonable to think we should get a five star or two every year or so). But when I see this, I note that all the teams above the Irish except UGa and A&M have won national titles in the last 10 or so years; ND's failure to so, given the quality of recruting goes to the teaching/development criticism. (I note that Richt is subject to the same criticisms; Sumlin, who actually brought A&M relatively-recently to the top tiers, is given a pass for the time being.)

 

[woolybug25]

You didn't disprove my sentiment at all. Maybe in your opinion. And having 'A' .90 plus rated player starting at every position group is nothing. You want that across all 11 with a few exceptions. Furthermore, you want them as back ups so we don't go to another 3 star with 10 offers when ish goes down. You're severely underselling the player ratings that exist in bug time programs on defense.

And thanks for insult, what's that the 3rd of the week from you to me? But yeah, you didn't prove anything. Stay classy.

Like I said, always moving the goal post until you exhaust the rational opposition. Now you are adding an additional spin... again....

I'm not going to do this with you, Koon. It's not a coincidence that you are ALWAYS on the side of an outlandish opinion. You cannot help yourself.

Just like you cannot help using worn out phrases like "ish" and "drama mama". How many times do you have to use phrases like that before you are tired of them, btw? I think the rest of the board were tired of them 6 months ago when our 14 year relatives quit using them on instagram.

You're played out...

 

[RDU Irish]

Expecting to draft, errr, recruit like an SEC team with NCAA minimum standards (redundant?) who is the defacto premier program in the country with the undisputed best coach coming off:

Making the playoffs in 2014 - losing to champ OSU

2013 losing in the Sugar Bowl after missing another Championship appearance after losing to Auburn to miss the SEC title game

2012 - One loss national champ over ND - only Johnny Football marred their record

2011 - Bullshit LSU rematch for the Natty

2010 - 10-3 down year beating MSU 49-7 in the Cap One Bowl

2009 - Undefeated National Champs

2008 - Undefeated... until the SEC champ loss to National Champ Florida, then loss in Sugar Bowl to Utah (Thank you SEC pump up scheduling!)


Yeah, maybe they should recruit on a different level than us.

 

[koonja]

Yeah Koon, you should back off that one:

Break that down by defense and see what you get since that's the specific side were discussing. That overall number is inflated by BK's success recruiting offensive players, some of which transfer out which I'm not blaming him for. But if you want to do a defensive comparison of where we'd be compared to an arbitrary list of 'top 10' programs, it'll look different.

 

[koonja]

Like I said, always moving the goal post until you exhaust the rational opposition. Now you are adding an additional spin... again....

I'm not going to do this with you, Koon. It's not a coincidence that you are ALWAYS on the side of an outlandish opinion. You cannot help yourself.

Just like you cannot help using worn out phrases like "ish" and "drama mama". How many times do you have to use phrases like that before you are tired of them, btw? I think the rest of the board were tired of them 6 months ago when our 14 year relatives quit using them on instagram.

You're played out...

What goal post am I moving? Stop being a jerk and be more specific if you're going to start something. And I was backing GK's opinion of poor defensive recruiting. So you saying I started an Outlandish opinion is again, wrong. Why are you always mad? You don'T belong on a message board if you can't handle disenting OPINIONS without being civil.

 

[Luckylucci]

FWIW, there are much better defenses out there that don't recruit as well as we do. I DO NOT believe the quality of recruiting is the issue. There is an issue with the defense but it isn't the recruiting quality players. There has been an issue with recruiting depth at different times, which speaks to organizational issues inside recruiting offices but that doesn't have to do with bringing in talent. This defensive staff has zero excuses but to put a very very good product out on that field.

 

[RDU Irish]

FWIW, there are much better defenses out there that don't recruit as well as we do. I DO NOT believe the quality of recruiting is the issue. There is an issue with the defense but it isn't the recruiting quality players. There has been an issue with recruiting depth at different times, which speaks to organizational issues inside recruiting offices but that doesn't have to do with bringing in talent. This defensive staff has zero excuses but to put a very very good product out on that field.

I agree with this 100%. The talent cupboard is not bare, scheme is getting in the way and I do not understand why we have to be so damn cute to outsmart people when we should be able to line up and execute to be very far above average. 2012 we lined up and balled out, nothing cute and it worked against everyone but Satan.

Then again, maybe averages are skewed for the Chattanooga games on most schedules that result in 4 yards of total offense, making also rans look statistically better.

 

[tussin]

I realize this post goes to the "we're not recruiting well" point, and I think Kelly DOES recruit pretty well (though I think it's reasonable to think we should get a five star or two every year or so). But when I see this, I note that all the teams above the Irish except UGa and A&M have won national titles in the last 10 or so years; ND's failure to so, given the quality of recruting goes to the teaching/development criticism. (I note that Richt is subject to the same criticisms; Sumlin, who actually brought A&M relatively-recently to the top tiers, is given a pass for the time being.)

Yeah, my point was that the issue isn't recruiting.

BK (like all coaches) could do things better, but I also wouldn't point to this as proof that he is a poor teacher either. With the exception of Bama and LSU, all the teams that won a natty had the recruiting along with a generation type talent playing QB.

After thinking more, I think winning NCs comes down to:
1) recruiting (check)
2) coaching / scheme (debatable)
3) smart scheduling (not BKs fault)
4) injury luck (not BKs fault)
5) striking gold with a QB (mostly coaching but a lot of luck involved there too)

 

[Cackalacky]

Like I said... "since the last time we faced adversity"....

Thats my point. When have we ever not faced it? We do the same crap every year under BK. I was selling last year and I said numerous times that it was time to shit or get off the pot for BK. The Virginia game just reinforced much of the same things we have seen consistently under BK. I am not going to call for his firing but accept the following:

3-4 losses per year are the ceiling.
30-35 points per game average
10 major injuries per year
consistent under 85 roster
undisciplined playcalling and communication between the sidelines
horrible STs
inconsistent qb play

I could go on but it is too depressing.....


Oh and I am 100% done with our DC. BvG needs to go.

 

[koonja]

Yeah, our defensive coaching is a bigger issue. Agree on that. But the defensive side of the ball has lacked talent compared to other ~10 programs and lags behind the offensive recruiting. We're always walking on thin ice when it comes to defensive injuries, whereas some schools lose a senior high-4 star, and just plug in another high-4 star that is simply a year or two younger but just as talented.

And by high-4 star, I'm not talking the .8999 to .91 rankings.

 

[woolybug25]

What goal post am I moving? Stop being a jerk and be more specific if you're going to start something. And I was backing GK's opinion of poor defensive recruiting. So you saying I started an Outlandish opinion is again, wrong. Why are you always mad? You don'T belong on a message board if you can't handle disenting OPINIONS without being civil.

I'm not mad at all, Koon. You are the one that can't stop posting about it. I was very clear in all of my posts and if you can't see what I was addressing (again, it's intellectually dishonest, you know what you're doing), then simply go read through our exchange.

I'm perfectly happy not debating with you, I said that in my last post in fact. I debate others in a calm and polite way every single day. It seems like the only time someone quits being civil is when it comes to you.

But i'm sure you're right... it's always someone else, right?