Notre Dame to consider starting it's own football league.

Rhode Irish

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Cardale, is that you?

You're taking what I said way out of context. The argument I was responding to was that football players are like interns because the coaches are teaching them football. My point was people don't pay money to watch them "learn" football, they pay to watch them play football. That has literally nothing to do with their academic obligations and my view of student athletes' academic obligations couldn't be more opposite than what you are implying here.
 

wizards8507

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The second-to-last one is a big deal if I understand it correctly. At a school like Notre Dame, where all students receive financial aid in the amount of 100% of demonstrated financial need as calculated by FAFSA, a poor kid would actually get a better financial aid package (including full cost of attendance) as a regular student than he would as a scholarship athlete.

I always wondered about that. If a kid was so poor that Notre Dame would have given him a full scholarship anyways, could they give him his aid under the normal financial aid policy and not count towards the 85?
 

wizards8507

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Where do you think that independent funding is coming from lol? Where did I say anything about them using tuition? You have your head buried so far in the sand it's incredible.
They sold bonds and got major gifts from donors. It had nothing to do with football. No ticket revenue, no NBC revenue, no UnderArmour revenue, no merchandise revenue. None of it. You're clueless. Independently funded.
 

Wild Bill

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Sometimes I'm not sure why I bother to write more than a sentence or two, because that is all anyone seems to read. Nuance is completely wasted.

I do see the benefit of the tuition, room and board. I think that is and always should be the primary benefit given to players in return for their service to the university. But I also think it would be fair to let the players share in the in the revenues they are making for the school, at least to some degree. Just give them something. I think the stipend idea that has been instituted is the right idea, I'd just like to see it beefed up a little bit.

Have you known any college football players? They aren't living in poverty. Any reasonable player would tell you that all needs are met and most would tell you that they live far better at school than they ever did at home.
 

woolybug25

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College football makes a ton money guys. Here is the 08 numbers. I'm sure the numbers have gone up from here. The top 100 teams had a total revenue of 20 million.
http://espn.go.com/ncaa/revenue/

Did you not read my post before? Revenue is not Profit. Two separate things. Just because a football program brings in a ton of money, does not mean that they have a net profit after their expenses. Less than 80% of college football teams are profitable. I linked it in my OP, so no need linking it again...
 

wizards8507

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College football makes a ton money guys. Here is the 08 numbers. I'm sure the numbers have gone up from here. The top 100 teams had a total revenue of 20 million.
College Athletics Revenues and Expenses - ESPN
It seems like you don't understand "revenue" in this context. You see that .edu after all of these schools' websites? It means they're non-profit educational institutions. Meaning any profit (revenue net of expenses) is rolled back into the university to fund programs. Nobody is getting rich at these universities off of college football except for coaches and media.

Yes, there is revenue. But for every program except 22, expenses exceed revenue. $2 million in revenue is jack shit if you have $2.1 million in operating expenses.
 

wizards8507

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Have you known any college football players? They aren't living in poverty. Any reasonable player would tell you that all needs are met and most would tell you that they live far better at school than they ever did at home.
Beats headphones don't pay for themselves! They need a pair for every outfit! And sneakers to match!
 

EddytoNow

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You're taking what I said way out of context. The argument I was responding to was that football players are like interns because the coaches are teaching them football. My point was people don't pay money to watch them "learn" football, they pay to watch them play football. That has literally nothing to do with their academic obligations and my view of student athletes' academic obligations couldn't be more opposite than what you are implying here.

People pay to watch them play football for ______________ University. Most people wouldn't pay to watch them play football for a team not associated with the university.
 

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Only the top 22 FBS programs break even or generate a profit (which is then used to support other athletic programs). The other 98 FBS programs, and every single D2 program, is a net negative for its college or university

I'm at work so I can't read this source right now. How do the University's break down each sports income in terms of donations and boosters? I'm sure if you only factor in ticket sales and merchandise the football programs all probably come out behind since the sport is really expensive to run. Not saying that isn't factored in, just curious.
 

kmoose

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The second-to-last one is a big deal if I understand it correctly. At a school like Notre Dame, where all students receive financial aid in the amount of 100% of demonstrated financial need as calculated by FAFSA, a poor kid would actually get a better financial aid package (including full cost of attendance) as a regular student than he would as a scholarship athlete.

I always wondered about that. If a kid was so poor that Notre Dame would have given him a full scholarship anyways, could they give him his aid under the normal financial aid policy and not count towards the 85?

All that is is an attempt to circumvent the 85 scholarship limit. It means that the SEC schools would no longer be "cutting" guys to get under the limit; they would just be giving them academic scholarships.
 

Rhode Irish

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Have you known any college football players? They aren't living in poverty. Any reasonable player would tell you that all needs are met and most would tell you that they live far better at school than they ever did at home.

So as long as they are getting the bare minimum, we're good and have fulfilled our moral obligation? Why can't they have more than meeting their basic needs, considering what their efforts mean for their university, financially? Brian Kelly gets more than his basic needs met; why shouldn't his players? I feel like the athletes are viewed like chattel by college football fans; like we give them a free education so they are ours to do with what we please. I just see it the opposite way.
 

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They sold bonds and got major gifts from donors. It had nothing to do with football. No ticket revenue, no NBC revenue, no UnderArmour revenue, no merchandise revenue. None of it. You're clueless. Independently funded.

You naming things I never said?? When did I say UU NBC or merch? Those private donors are donating to an addition onto the football stadium because of football! The source of the donations are independent from football, the reason for the donations are not.
 

tussin

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People pay to watch them play football for ______________ University. Most people wouldn't pay to watch them play football for a team not associated with the university.

Exactly, Arean Football and CFL are better on-field products than 99% of college football. No one is lining up to watch them. The NFL Europe was inarguable a better product... it failed.

People watch college football because of personal associations with the institutions, not the individual players.
 

Rhode Irish

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People pay to watch them play football for ______________ University. Most people wouldn't pay to watch them play football for a team not associated with the university.

OK, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. But I actually agree. I don't think a minor league not associated with colleges and comprised of the same players would generate much interest at all. But, at the same time, a college football where teams just competed with students that were already attending the school and not with players they recruited and admitted for the purpose of playing football would not generate much interest, either (or, who won the Amherst-Williams game last season?). So it is a symbiotic relationship, but only one side is getting a taste of the money being generated.
 
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Grahambo

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Exactly, Arean Football and CFL are better on-field products than 99% of college football. No one is lining up to watch them. The NFL Europe was inarguable a better product... it failed.

People watch college football because of personal associations with the institutions, not the individual players.

I used to watch NFL Europe.



Sigh.
 

TheOneWhoKnocks

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I'm confused I thought it was already decided that schools would start paying each kid a few grand a year
 

Whiskeyjack

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So as long as they are getting the bare minimum, we're good and have fulfilled our moral obligation? Why can't they have more than meeting their basic needs, considering what their efforts mean for their university, financially?

The full retail price tag for a bachelor's degree from ND is ~$240k. The 30y ROI is $1.25 million. Every student athlete, from the star QB to the worst player on the women's fencing team, gets that benefit. You don't think that's enough?

Brian Kelly gets more than his basic needs met; why shouldn't his players?

The talent and experience necessary to coach an elite CFB team is a much rarer and more valuable commodity than the talent and experience necessary to become a student athlete at ND.
 
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kmoose

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They sold bonds and got major gifts from donors. It had nothing to do with football. No ticket revenue, no NBC revenue, no UnderArmour revenue, no merchandise revenue. None of it. You're clueless. Independently funded.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SEbwZfkeIt8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

From:

FAQs // Campus Crossroads Project // University of Notre Dame

How much will the project cost, and how will it be funded?

The project will cost an estimated $400 million, and will be paid for through fundraising commitments, revenue generated by the sale of new premium club seats, and the issuance of bonds; neither tuition nor financial aid will be affected.
 

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Exactly, Arean Football and CFL are better on-field products than 99% of college football. No one is lining up to watch them. The NFL Europe was inarguable a better product... it failed.

People watch college football because of personal associations with the institutions, not the individual players.

So should we just outsource every job possible regardless of the quality they produce? Hey who cares if the product is garbage these stupid consumers will still buy it if it says Nike on it.

That's basically what you are advocating. Why should we pay players when there are worse athletes that will do it for free? We tried that with Willingham, how pleased were ND fans when the roster was full of no one's?
 
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tussin

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OK, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. But I actually agree. I don't think a minor league not associated with colleges and comprised of the same players would generate much interest at all. But, at the same time, a college football where teams just competed with students that were already attending the school and not with players they recruited and admitted for the purpose of playing football would generate much interest (or, who won the Amherst-Williams game last season?). So it is a symbiotic relationship, but only side is getting a taste of the money being generated.

I think one can argue that these guys are actually being paid above market when you consider all of the benefits and perks of a Division 1 scholarship.

They aren't good enough for the NFL and the money they would earn in an independent league is less than the equivalent of a year's tuition, books, living expenses, etc.

Why not get rid of all structured scholarships and just give the athletes a $70K check every year? If they can get paid more in a semi-pro league then go do that.
 

TDHeysus

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players should not be paid no matter what. but if they were, I like the article that recently came out about fining students for stuff like being late to class, unexcused absences, missing assignments, messing dorms rooms, etc.

they cant have it both ways, if they want to get paid then responsibility and consequences come along with it.

if your cannot pay your fines, then you cannot attend class/play sports. just like your water gets cut off when you don't pay your bills.
 

Corry

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Did you not read my post before? Revenue is not Profit. Two separate things. Just because a football program brings in a ton of money, does not mean that they have a net profit after their expenses. Less than 80% of college football teams are profitable. I linked it in my OP, so no need linking it again...

My point is football programs are not profitable by choice, and that there is more than enough money to give the players a taste. This is you and Wiz's field so I'll trust your expertise, but it just seems to me that they need to fire their accountant.
 

Rhode Irish

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The full retail price tag for a bachelor's degree from ND is ~$240k. The 30y ROI is $1.25 million. Every student athlete, from the star QB to the worst player on the women's fencing team, gets that benefit. You don't think that's enough?

I guess we just look at it differently. Why is the question "is it enough?" rather than "could we do more?" And yeah, strictly from a Notre Dame perspective, Irish athletes get a pretty fair shake on the exchange (again, a big part of the reason I care about and support ND football), but should the analysis start and end with "does it work for Notre Dame?" Everyone can't go to Notre Dame. Kids at other schools should get a fair deal, too.


The talent and experience necessary to coach an elite CFB team is a much rarer and more valuable skill than the talent and experience necessary to become a student athlete at ND.

Obviously. I'm not arguing players should get more than coaches. The point is why are we only concerned that we are meeting the players basic needs when nobody else in the world is compensated on that basis.
 

tussin

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My point is football programs are not profitable by choice, and that there is more than enough money to give the players a taste. This is you and Wiz's field so I'll trust your expertise, but it just seems to me that they need to fire their accountant.

:confused::confused::confused:
 

kmoose

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You naming things I never said?? When did I say UU NBC or merch? Those private donors are donating to an addition onto the football stadium because of football! The source of the donations are independent from football, the reason for the donations are not.

So now you know the intentions of those donating to the Campus Crossroads project? I bet that Philbin, DeBartolo, Dolan, Rice, Mendoza, Moynihan, Criqui, Donahue, and Ohlmeyer would be donating just as much, even if ND didn't play football.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I guess we just look at it differently. Why is the question "is it enough?" rather than "could we do more?" And yeah, strictly from a Notre Dame perspective, Irish athletes get a pretty fair shake on the exchange (again, a big part of the reason I care about and support ND football), but should the analysis start and end with "does it work for Notre Dame?" Everyone can't go to Notre Dame. Kids at other schools should get a fair deal, too.

It works at Stanford, too. If the other top 20 FBS programs did the same, this would be a non-issue. So I'd prefer a world in which the football factories are shamed into better practices by ND and Stanford, rather than one in which we blow up CFB amateurism because of a few bad actors.

Obviously. I'm not arguing players should get more than coaches. The point is why are we only concerned that we are meeting the players basic needs when nobody else in the world is compensated on that basis.

Who's concerned only with basic needs? Student athletes at ND and Stanford are getting an incredible deal. If college athletes in revenue sports at the other top 20 FBS schools are getting exploited (and many of them are), let's focus on shaming those bad actors. But instead of forcing those programs to be more like ND and SU, you're advocating that we blow up amateurism to achieve "justice" for those few players. That would cause much more harm than good.
 
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IrishLax

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I don't understand why people would care if players were making millions from boosters/endorsements as long as they were still students going to real classes and doing real work and getting real degrees.

The bigger issue right now is that you have some schools like Notre Dame that are willing to go CSI and bust out digital forensics with teams of investigators to uncover plagiarism (likely at the cost of vacated wins), and then you have schools like UNC where an entire department of faculty is complicit in grade fixing/fake classes.

What Koon described at OSU is common everywhere. I work with a kid who got his masters at Kansas and the professors he worked with openly joked about how they knew none of the papers they received from basketball players were written by those players.

If the NCAA could fix one thing, it would be hiring independent compliance professionals to permanently audit schools. A staff of 3 or 4 people per school making sure something like UNC can't happen.
 

BobbyMac

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Stop with all the pay the players because... "they make the school millions" talk.

Read this and put it to bed.

Growth in Division I athletics expenses outpaces revenue increases | NCAA.org - The Official Site of the NCAA

Division I

The 20 Division I FBS programs whose revenues exceeded their expenses reported median net revenue of $8.45 million. Those schools represent 16 percent of FBS.

Football Championship Subdivision schools did not follow the trend in FBS. With their generated revenue increases outpacing the jump in expenses. Generated revenues have jumped by 10.1 percent since 2012, while expenses increased by only 8 percent over the same timeframe.

Median total expenses at institutions in the five highest-resource FBS conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC) was $81.7 million. The median at FBS schools outside those five conferences was $28.8 million.

Schools in the five highest-resource conferences rely on generated revenue much more heavily than their other FBS counterparts. Of $83.6 million in median total revenues at the highest-resource schools, 89 percent ($74.8 million) was generated by the athletic department. At other FBS schools, athletics generated only 40 percent ($11.6 million) of total revenues.

Since 2004, median generated revenues have increased at all FBS schools by 83.2 percent. At FCS schools, they have jumped 82.5 percent and schools without football have seen revenues climb by 62.5 percent. Over the same decade, expenses at FBS schools have climbed 114.6 percent. They jumped 88.4 percent at FCS schools and 95.5 percent at schools without football. In each instance, the increase in expenses has outpaced the growth of generated revenue, a gap that has accelerated with time.
 

Irish#1

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I also don't understand why you would want to make a guy choose between getting an education and getting paid? Why don't you want the guy to get both, if the market allows for it?

Why is the question "is it enough?" rather than "could we do more?"

Why does he have to get paid? Why do we have to do more? I won't argue that the NCAA has some pretty stupid rules, but by and large, these kids aren't walking around school hoping they get a meal or find a place to stay for the night!
 
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