[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

IrishJayhawk

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This new theory deserves its own post because I want to remember it forever:

The majority of the nation believes ND covered up a rape and suicide and murdered a student. Most Notre Dame fans do not believe this to be true.

The majority of the nation believes the Patriots and/or Brady cheated in some way. Most Patriots fans do not believe this to be true.

ND fans are right about ND not raping and murdering. Therefore the nation was wrong.

Because the nation was wrong about ND, they are wrong about the Patriots. #PatriotFanTheory

That's not a fair characterization. His argument is this...

ND fans actually knew the facts about the situation because they followed it so closely. That's true of Pats fans in this situation as well. In both cases, the public rushed to judgement with incomplete facts and went with a narrative that felt good (i.e., sticking it to a team they already don't like).
 

Irish Insanity

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As the conversation turns a but that way, I am in no way siding with or defending the NFL in this either.
 

ACamp1900

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That's not a fair characterization. His argument is this...

ND fans actually knew the facts about the situation because they followed it so closely. That's true of Pats fans in this situation as well. In both cases, the public rushed to judgement with incomplete facts and went with a narrative that felt good (i.e., sticking it to a team they already don't like).

SSSHHHHHHAAAAAAATTTTT APP JAYHAWK!!!
 

wizards8507

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That's not a fair characterization. His argument is this...

ND fans actually knew the facts about the situation because they followed it so closely. That's true of Pats fans in this situation as well. In both cases, the public rushed to judgement with incomplete facts and went with a narrative that felt good (i.e., sticking it to a team they already don't like).
Ding ding ding.
 

Irish Insanity

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That's not a fair characterization. His argument is this...

ND fans actually knew the facts about the situation because they followed it so closely. That's true of Pats fans in this situation as well. In both cases, the public rushed to judgement with incomplete facts and went with a narrative that felt good (i.e., sticking it to a team they already don't like).

I know Pats, and die hard sports fan, that have followed this situation very closely. None of them believe some of the stuff being thrown around in this thread. Also over the duration of this thing there have been several public people side with Brady and after yesterday I haven't heard from any that believe the stuff that being thrown around in this thread. And they're plugged in a lot more than any of us.
 

gkIrish

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That's not a fair characterization. His argument is this...

ND fans actually knew the facts about the situation because they followed it so closely. That's true of Pats fans in this situation as well. In both cases, the public rushed to judgement with incomplete facts and went with a narrative that felt good (i.e., sticking it to a team they already don't like).

The situations aren't really comparable. As of maybe two years ago the vast majority of people on this board, some of the most diehard ND fans in the world, didn't even know who the ND player was. So any defense they made of ND was completely biased and blinded. And in that case, there truly were insider facts that some of us knew about. Everything in this Patriots case is public information. So Patriots fans are just claiming that we don't read the same things they do.
 

NDohio

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Because Rogers ins't part of an organization that got busted for Spygate.

The Patriots don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The Patriots only seem to be fooling their own fans at this point if you think everything was just fine. Dispute the Wells report all you want, cite the weather, the lockerroom, the ball boy taking a piss break, different gauges, whatever you want.

But some of us aren't stupid enough to disregard the nickname the "Deflator," which had been given to the guy BEFORE this all was an issue
, nor are we stupid enough to disregard the fact that it's the Patriots, and that Brady's initial defense was "I don't know anything about ball pressure," or the fact that somebody felt a NOTICEABLE difference in the Patriots game balls to begin with.


You have it all wrong here. That was a nickname for the guy as he was losing weight. Come on, get it right...
 

Rhode Irish

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The situations aren't really comparable. As of maybe two years ago the vast majority of people on this board, some of the most diehard ND fans in the world, didn't even know who the ND player was. So any defense they made of ND was completely biased and blinded. And in that case, there truly were insider facts that some of us knew about. Everything in this Patriots case is public information. So Patriots fans are just claiming that we don't read the same things they do.


I initially made the analogy, but did not mention the Shembo situation. I mentioned Manti's situation and Declan Sullivan's death. In both of those situations, the public narrative was one thing, and the people who followed the story closest found that narrative to be flawed or worse. Tell me you did not feel that people were willfully ignoring important context or their opinion of the situations were burdened by a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

I can't believe the cognitive dissonance here. When it was something you cared about, that witch hunt was based on a poor understanding of the facts and circumstances by the general public; but this witch hunt is different because the public has a full understanding of the facts and a full appreciation for the nuance involved? No.
 

NDohio

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Jerad from sSubway?

New England Patriots adjust weight-loss 'deflator' reference on website

The New England Patriots' website launched in May to offer rebuttal to Ted Wells' report has adjusted a portion of text that claimed locker room attendant Jim McNally referred to himself as the "deflator" because he was trying to lose weight.

In a June 18 annotation to Wellsreportcontext.com, the Patriots' attorney, Daniel J. Goldberg, linked to a separate page containing text that was removed from the original document and wrote that the weight-loss explanation had overshadowed other points made in the nearly 20,000-word document.

"The focus of public discussion about the one and only text that used the term "deflator" -- and what the term as used in that single text refers to -- has detracted attention from the numerous flaws in the Wells Report described in these annotations," the website's annotation reads. "The original paragraph discussing that text can be found here. The following paragraph has been added to clarify the basic point being made ... that one cannot reasonably rely on that one uncorroborated and unexamined text to conclude that there was improper ball deflation."

The Patriots said they intended it to be a "live" website that can be updated, with the understanding that links would be provided for any content that was removed along with an annotation as to why they adjusted it.

The original website text explained that "Mr. McNally is a big fellow and had the opposite goal [as equipment assistant John Jastremski]: to lose weight. 'Deflate' was a term they used to refer to losing weight. ... There was nothing complicated or sinister about it."


Also removed from the original explanation were several text messages between Jastremski and McNally, including one where McNally writes, "... come on help the deflator."

The Patriots' June 18 annotation notes that McNally used the term in "one and only one text," on May 9, 2014, and there was no mention of footballs in "any surrounding texts."

"That single word from a text in May is also the primary basis in the report to conclude that improper deflation occurred at the AFC Championship Game eight months later. And then it forms the basis for the findings regarding [Tom] Brady."

NFL investigators, according to the June 18 annotation, never asked McNally or Jastremski about the text message that included the word "deflator."

"They simply assumed, with no basis or investigation whatsoever, what "deflator" must mean, and then relied on their assumption to filter all the other evidence they received," the annotation reads. "What they did know, but chose to ignore, is that 'deflate' is often used in contexts having nothing to do with taking air out of footballs -- and that even these two men used the term in their texts in various ways having nothing to do with footballs."

The annotation also argues that a "simple Internet search reveals a frequent use of the word 'deflate' in the context of weight loss."

Hilarious - "let's throw this idea of the deflator being about weight loss and see if the idiot public buys it! Ooops - they didn't buy it, we better change our story..."
 

gkIrish

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I initially made the analogy, but did not mention the Shembo situation. I mentioned Manti's situation and Declan Sullivan's death. In both of those situations, the public narrative was one thing, and the people who followed the story closest found that narrative to be flawed or worse. Tell me you did not feel that people were willfully ignoring important context or their opinion of the situations were burdened by a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

I can't believe the cognitive dissonance here. When it was something you cared about, that witch hunt was based on a poor understanding of the facts and circumstances by the general public; but this witch hunt is different because the public has a full understanding of the facts and a full appreciation for the nuance involved? No.

For me to agree with you would require me to believe you know something I don't. What do you know that I don't?
 

IrishLax

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There are two issues:

1. The NFL's science was/is crap.

2. Brady/Patriots OBVIOUSLY LIED and did not cooperate with the investigation.
2A. There is no plausible explanation for the term "deflator"... the explanation the Patriots' tried to give in their rebuttal they are now backing away from slowly because it's so laughable that it completely undermines their credibility.
2B. Brady claimed not to know the people involved, and that is a lie regardless of whether those people tampered with footballs. Why the lying if nothing to hide?

So while it's easy to see the (justified) outrage toward's the NFL's handling of the situation... it's also a fucking insult to everyone's collective intelligence that Brady continues to not address the fact that he is a liar.
 

Rhode Irish

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For me to agree with you would require me to believe you know something I don't. What do you know that I don't?

I can't speak to what you don't know, but I'll give it a shot. The only thing that really matters here is that the footballs in question were not, in fact, deflated. So literally every other thing is irrelevant. Broken phones, missing texts, curious nicknames, prior reputations. None of that matters at all if the footballs weren't illegal. So if we're talking about this, you must be under the impression that the footballs were in violation of the rules. They weren't.

I can understand how you might be confused about that, though. The League leaked false information about the PSI levels of the footballs after the AFC Championship game, and even their letter to the Patriots contained false information about the footballs. The Wells Report, which was commissioned by the League for $5M, went so far as to (purposely) misrepresent the science and ignore the testimony of its "star" witness in order to obscure the fact that the balls at the heart of this whole situation were not actually tampered with.

So the NFL has actively waged what amounts to a 6 month PR assault on the Patriots based on an alleged inconsequential rules infraction which science tends to prove didn't even happen, and people just lap up the nonsense that has been thrown out there by the NFL to muddy the waters. Phones, texts, nicknames....none of that actually matters if the balls weren't tampered with and, based on the tests conducted by the League before and during the game and the analysis of independent scientists, the balls weren't tampered with. Part of that is probably explained by the football public's preexisting sentiment towards the Patriots; the rest of it is probably explained by the public-at-large's general stupidity and tendency to be distracted easily by noise.
 

wizards8507

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There are two issues:

1. The NFL's science was/is crap.

2. Brady/Patriots OBVIOUSLY LIED and did not cooperate with the investigation.
2A. There is no plausible explanation for the term "deflator"... the explanation the Patriots' tried to give in their rebuttal they are now backing away from slowly because it's so laughable that it completely undermines their credibility.
2B. Brady claimed not to know the people involved, and that is a lie regardless of whether those people tampered with footballs. Why the lying if nothing to hide?

So while it's easy to see the (justified) outrage toward's the NFL's handling of the situation... it's also a fucking insult to everyone's collective intelligence that Brady continues to not address the fact that he is a liar.
The "deflator = weight loss" story is garbage, I'll give you that. But will you acknowledge that it's plausible (and not all that nefarious) if the football tampering was the result of referees tending to overinfate balls? Sure, the guy might be "the deflator" because he deflates balls, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's deflating balls to an illegal level.
 

NDohio

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I can't speak to what you don't know, but I'll give it a shot. The only thing that really matters here is that the footballs in question were not, in fact, deflated. So literally every other thing is irrelevant. Broken phones, missing texts, curious nicknames, prior reputations. None of that matters at all if the footballs weren't illegal. So if we're talking about this, you must be under the impression that the footballs were in violation of the rules. They weren't.

I can understand how you might be confused about that, though. The League leaked false information about the PSI levels of the footballs after the AFC Championship game, and even their letter to the Patriots contained false information about the footballs. The Wells Report, which was commissioned by the League for $5M, went so far as to (purposely) misrepresent the science and ignore the testimony of its "star" witness in order to obscure the fact that the balls at the heart of this whole situation were not actually tampered with.

So the NFL has actively waged what amounts to a 6 month PR assault on the Patriots based on an alleged inconsequential rules infraction which science tends to prove didn't even happen, and people just lap up the nonsense that has been thrown out there by the NFL to muddy the waters. Phones, texts, nicknames....none of that actually matters if the balls weren't tampered with and, based on the tests conducted by the League before and during the game and the analysis of independent scientists, the balls weren't tampered with. Part of that is probably explained by the football public's preexisting sentiment towards the Patriots; the rest of it is probably explained by the public-at-large's general stupidity and tendency to be distracted easily by noise.


So why the cover up? If they did nothing wrong - nothing at all, why lie? Why make-up stupid excuses for a nickname? Why didn't Brady admit he texts with those guys on a regular basis to make sure the footballs are at the lowest possible level?

The Pats did this to themselves when they started the cover up.

I agree with TTT. Admit it - an honest mistake and move on and this whole thing is over.


EDIT: And why haven't the equipment managers gotten their jobs back? They FIRED people over this. Yet they did nothing wrong? The Pats should be sued over that...
 
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IrishLax

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The "deflator = weight loss" story is garbage, I'll give you that. But will you acknowledge that it's plausible (and not all that nefarious) if the football tampering was the result of referees tending to overinfate balls? Sure, the guy might be "the deflator" because he deflates balls, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's deflating balls to an illegal level.

Absolutely 100%. And if the Patriots had said that, it would've seemed very reasonable.

I have a post somewhere in this thread where I said something to the effect of "if Brady had just come out and said:
Everyone likes footballs a certain way. Some like them fresh, others like them rubbed down... some like them lower on the PSI scale and others like them overinflated. The equipment guys know that I like them towards the lower end of the legal spectrum, and if they made a mistake and under-inflated them too much then we as an organization need to figure out what went wrong, make sure that mistake doesn't happen again, and apologize for the error."

Then nothing of consequence would've happened to him. It's the lying and above-the-law attitude that is getting him burned... he basically took a page out of the Mike Garrett playbook from USC that got the Trojans hammered.
 

pkt77242

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So why the cover up? If they did nothing wrong - nothing at all, why lie? Why make-up stupid excuses for a nickname? Why didn't Brady admit he texts with those guys on a regular basis to make sure the footballs are at the lowest possible level?

The Pats did this to themselves when they started the cover up.

I agree with TTT. Admit it - an honest mistake and move on and this whole thing is over
.

I disagree with this. The NFL made it a big deal when they set up a sting operation to try and catch them. The NFL made this into a huge thing by leaking false information to the press.

I am a Vikings fan and I am not a fan of the Patriots (though I did root for them in the Super Bowl but that is only because I hate Pete Carroll). I feel that the NFL got information that the Patriots might be tampering with the balls and instead of talking with them about it set up some crappy half-ass sting to try and catch them. Which as usual the NFL botched and couldn't get proper readings and failed on the science side. Is it likely that the Patriots were doing something questionable with the balls, sure but the NFL botched this so bad that they made the Patriots appear sympathetic. Then on top of all of the NFL's failings in this they went ahead and handed out penalties that were overly harsh.

I kind of feel that the NFL should just have dropped it or given a light penalty do to their bungling of the situation. Especially when you consider that they used the "psi readings" as reason to question the Patriots employees and it turns out the they didn't understand the science of it and the PSI readings showed that the balls were in the normal range (besides maybe 1 but I can't remember exactly right now). If a police officer lies to get a search warrant, doesn't the court usually throw out any information that comes about because of the search warrant? While this doesn't involve search warrants or courts, isn't it similar? The NFL used misinformation/lies as a reason to question the Patriots employees, to drum up evidence to punish the Patriots.
 

Rhode Irish

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So why the cover up? If they did nothing wrong - nothing at all, why lie? Why make-up stupid excuses for a nickname? Why didn't Brady admit he texts with those guys on a regular basis to make sure the footballs are at the lowest possible level?

The Pats did this to themselves when they started the cover up.

I agree with TTT. Admit it - an honest mistake and move on and this whole thing is over.


EDIT: And why haven't the equipment managers gotten their jobs back? They FIRED people over this. Yet they did nothing wrong? The Pats should be sued over that...

I am not defending how the Patriots handled every step of this stuff. Here is some homer rationalizing, though: once the League started leaking bad info to the press and didn't just privately issue a $25k fine, I think the Patriots assumed a fighting position and went into bunker mode, as they do. They basically decided to fight this to the death for some reason, either out of pride or unadulterated defiance (either of which I happen to admire the hell out of, which makes the Patriots more than just the home team to me), or maybe there are other reasons that have to do with behind-the-scenes NFL cloak and dagger stuff I don't know about.
 

NDohio

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I disagree with this. The NFL made it a big deal when they set up a sting operation to try and catch them. The NFL made this into a huge thing by leaking false information to the press.

I am a Vikings fan and I am not a fan of the Patriots (though I did root for them in the Super Bowl but that is only because I hate Pete Carroll). I feel that the NFL got information that the Patriots might be tampering with the balls and instead of talking with them about it set up some crappy half-ass sting to try and catch them. Which as usual the NFL botched and couldn't get proper readings and failed on the science side. Is it likely that the Patriots were doing something questionable with the balls, sure but the NFL botched this so bad that they made the Patriots appear sympathetic. Then on top of all of the NFL's failings in this they went ahead and handed out penalties that were overly harsh.

I kind of feel that the NFL should just have dropped it or given a light penalty do to their bungling of the situation. Especially when you consider that they used the "psi readings" as reason to question the Patriots employees and it turns out the they didn't understand the science of it and the PSI readings showed that the balls were in the normal range (besides maybe 1 but I can't remember exactly right now). If a police officer lies to get a search warrant, doesn't the court usually throw out any information that comes about because of the search warrant? While this doesn't involve search warrants or courts, isn't it similar? The NFL used misinformation/lies as a reason to question the Patriots employees, to drum up evidence to punish the Patriots.


I don't disagree that the NFL turned this into more than what it should be, but the Pats did it first. The NFL announces they are going to investigate and the Pats went into full on cover up mode - fired the equipment guys, lied about relationships, etc
 

IrishJayhawk

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I do think it's ironic that there are admitted Patriot haters who are arguing with admitted Patriot lovers. The Patriot haters think the Patriot lovers are biased because they love the Patriots. But they don't think they are biased because they hate the Patriots. There is some serious schadenfreude on that side of the aisle, but that's not really being discussed.

I don't know where I stand on the topic. I haven't read the report. But I think it's a fascinating sociological experiment.
 

pkt77242

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I don't disagree that the NFL turned this into more than what it should be, but the Pats did it first. The NFL announces they are going to investigate and the Pats went into full on cover up mode - fired the equipment guys, lied about relationships, etc

This I disagree with, the NFL did it first with the leaked PSI numbers (which were wrong) and acting as if they had proof of cheating due to the PSI numbers (which is incorrect). Now the Patriots could have responded with "slow down, we were only pushing the envelope, not full on cheating" but instead went into 'Fuck You, we weren't cheating" mode.
 

irishfan

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There are two issues:

1. The NFL's science was/is crap.

2. Brady/Patriots OBVIOUSLY LIED and did not cooperate with the investigation.
2A. There is no plausible explanation for the term "deflator"... the explanation the Patriots' tried to give in their rebuttal they are now backing away from slowly because it's so laughable that it completely undermines their credibility.
2B. Brady claimed not to know the people involved, and that is a lie regardless of whether those people tampered with footballs. Why the lying if nothing to hide?

So while it's easy to see the (justified) outrage toward's the NFL's handling of the situation... it's also a fucking insult to everyone's collective intelligence that Brady continues to not address the fact that he is a liar.

You can choose to believe this or not, but the story is that he didn't know Jim McNally's name and only knew him by his nickname, "Bird." He actually thought his nickname was "Burt" which is hilarious to me that he's been calling this equipment guy by the wrong nickname all these years. This is what Bruschi said as well on ESPN. He said he had no idea who McNally was by name either.
 

MNIrishman

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How can anyone feel that strongly about an NFL company? It's like seeing a fight between people who like Viacomm vs. Warner Bros. Who gives a shit? They're self-interested entertainment companies who couldn't give a flying fuck about you or the community they're in. This is theater to keep you interested in the offseason.
 

IrishLax

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I thought we put a moratorium on Deadspin after the Manti fiasco, no? lol

Yes, we do not allow anything from Gawker media on this site. That is the most shameful place on the Internet. If you can copy+paste a story without providing them clicks then that is fine.
 

IrishLax

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Wow, OK. That is an unfortunate policy.

Is it? Gawker Media is one of the morally reprehensible entities in existence. It falls somewhere between Koch Industries and North Korea's Ministry of Truth.

Their recent outing of a private citizen for no other reason than because they could and he worked for a media rival was utterly nauseating, and nothing short of gay-shaming and bigotry.

EDIT: Chances are I (or others) have broken this rule without thinking, but wooly is correct that after the Manti thing we said we'd no longer link Deadspin articles here.
 

Rhode Irish

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Deadspin did ND and Manti dirty with some of the inferences and suggestions made in that story, no doubt. But the underlying information was legitimately newsworthy. That story aside, deadspin has always been anti-ND football. I've found that unfortunate, because I'm an ND football fan. But I have interests outside ND and for pretty much anything non-ND I find deadspin to be terrific. I know that Gawker is the parent company of deadspin, but from an editorial perspective gawker and deadspin are different, as are gawker.com and Gawker Media the company. It's hard for me to believe you'll find a lot objectionable about the content at lifehacker or jalopnik or some of their other separate media properties.

Anyways, I've never been a big censorship guy and pretending the sites don't exist seems slightly childish to me, but I understand why you guys take that position.
 

irishfan

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BradyLawsuit?src=hash">#BradyLawsuit</a> says June 23 appeal to Goodell "defied any concept of fundamental fairness" <a href="http://t.co/hMyl6RkWqs">pic.twitter.com/hMyl6RkWqs</a></p>— Ben Volin (@BenVolin) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/626538227567079424">July 29, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Brady's best argument is probably that Ted Wells and his team was not "independent." If they can prove the above portion true, I don't see how the NFL wins.

The main points in his lawsuit if anyone cares:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFLPA announces the lawsuit, puts together these bullet points in its release ... <a href="http://t.co/Dqg3TlRJ6d">pic.twitter.com/Dqg3TlRJ6d</a></p>— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/626533843906990080">July 29, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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