Another Weekend In Chicago, 7 Dead, 40 Wounded

[BGIF]

But it's better than last year ...

Gruesome weekend for Chicago leaves police chief reeling - CNN.com

 

[Booslum31]

The police chief asking for "some help here" and a "change in the system". It seems like nobody has a clue on how to curb this violence. 30% higher police presense netted lower death toll than last year but who's to say that that is the reason the numbers were lower. The statistic that stunned me was that the police recovered one illegal gun per hour over the long weekend...surprised that they did that without a shootout or two.

 

[notredomer23]

#BlackLivesMatter




/Exits thread.

 

[Emcee77]

Yeah, I don't know what can realistically be done, but I certainly agree that the police need "some help here." Gun crime in Chicago is not going to go away with better policing because so much of the gun crime doesn't come from organized crime, at least not anymore. It's just ingrained in the culture. When I was in the state court system I worked on a lot of shootings that were gang-related and drug-distribution-related, which have a certain twisted logic, but I also worked on a lot of shootings that weren't gang-related, and many of those crimes were just totally senseless. For example, defendant got beaten up at a bus stop for speaking disrespectfully to victim's sister, so defendant brings a gun to victim's house and starts shooting (that one could be hashtagged #englewood). For another example, drug-addicted defendant loses all his money in a dice game, so he goes around the corner to where he knows a neighbor stashed a gun and comes back and starts shooting.

Getting all the illegal guns off the street would certainly help, but I'm not optimistic that that can be done. There are just too many of them in this country, and they are just too easy to get. Some good law-abiding citizen goes to a gun show and buys a gun, and then his house gets broken into and the burglar finds the gun, and then he gives it to his brother for protection because he lives in a rough neighborhood, and then the brother gives it to his cousin's boyfriend, and then the gun changes hands a dozen more time in the same way, and the exact same thing happens 100 other times with a 100 other guns and before you know it you have 101 guns on the streets of a high-crime neighborhood and no one in possession of the guns has any idea where they came from, even if cops catch them, confiscate the guns and interrogate the people who were holding them.

The situation is difficult (to put it mildly) as long as guns are readily available for purchase in this country, and the constitution prevents us from banning guns, so our policymakers are going to have to start getting more creative. There are many things we can do to make the situation better, but it will take some clever politicking.

 

[Wild Bill]

The overwhelming majority of the children in these neighborhoods are raised in single parent homes, then they're sent to failing and bankrupt public schools and finally released into the working world to compete for jobs with zero skills to offer an employer who is forced to pay them a wage they aren't worth.

The slobs we call our local government got us here with moronic policies. They'll never get us out.

 

[MNIrishman]

Yeah, I don't know what can realistically be done, but I certainly agree that the police need "some help here." Gun crime in Chicago is not going to go away with better policing because so much of the gun crime doesn't come from organized crime, at least not anymore. It's just ingrained in the culture. When I was in the state court system I worked on a lot of shootings that were gang-related and drug-distribution-related, which have a certain twisted logic, but I also worked on a lot of shootings that weren't gang-related, and many of those crimes were just totally senseless. For example, defendant got beaten up at a bus stop for speaking disrespectfully to victim's sister, so defendant brings a gun to victim's house and starts shooting (that one could be hashtagged #englewood). For another example, drug-addicted defendant loses all his money in a dice game, so he goes around the corner to where he knows a neighbor stashed a gun and comes back and starts shooting.

Getting all the illegal guns off the street would certainly help, but I'm not optimistic that that can be done. There are just too many of them in this country, and they are just too easy to get. Some good law-abiding citizen goes to a gun show and buys a gun, and then his house gets broken into and the burglar finds the gun, and then he gives it to his brother for protection because he lives in a rough neighborhood, and then the brother gives it to his cousin's boyfriend, and then the gun changes hands a dozen more time in the same way, and the exact same thing happens 100 other times with a 100 other guns and before you know it you have 101 guns on the streets of a high-crime neighborhood and no one in possession of the guns has any idea where they came from, even if cops catch them, confiscate the guns and interrogate the people who were holding them.

The situation is difficult (to put it mildly) as long as guns are readily available for purchase in this country, and the constitution prevents us from banning guns, so our policymakers are going to have to start getting more creative. There are many things we can do to make the situation better, but it will take some clever politicking.

Chicago already has some of the strictest gun control in the country, which seems to correlate positively, not negatively, with gun violence.

 

[nlroma1o]

The overwhelming majority of the children in these neighborhoods are raised in single parent homes, then they're sent to failing and bankrupt public schools and finally released into the working world to compete for jobs with zero skills to offer an employer who is forced to pay them a wage they aren't worth.

The slobs we call our local government got us here with moronic policies. They'll never get us out.

Bingo^^^

 

[wizards8507]

The situation is difficult (to put it mildly) as long as guns are readily available for purchase in this country, and the constitution prevents us from banning guns, so our policymakers are going to have to start getting more creative. There are many things we can do to make the situation better, but it will take some clever politicking.

"I want to join a gang and murder a bunch of people, but darn if those pesky gun laws don't make it impossible for me to legally obtain a weapon."

- No Person Ever

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah, I don't know what can realistically be done, but I certainly agree that the police need "some help here." Gun crime in Chicago is not going to go away with better policing because so much of the gun crime doesn't come from organized crime, at least not anymore. It's just ingrained in the culture. When I was in the state court system I worked on a lot of shootings that were gang-related and drug-distribution-related, which have a certain twisted logic, but I also worked on a lot of shootings that weren't gang-related, and many of those crimes were just totally senseless. For example, defendant got beaten up at a bus stop for speaking disrespectfully to victim's sister, so defendant brings a gun to victim's house and starts shooting (that one could be hashtagged #englewood). For another example, drug-addicted defendant loses all his money in a dice game, so he goes around the corner to where he knows a neighbor stashed a gun and comes back and starts shooting.

Getting all the illegal guns off the street would certainly help, but I'm not optimistic that that can be done. There are just too many of them in this country, and they are just too easy to get. Some good law-abiding citizen goes to a gun show and buys a gun, and then his house gets broken into and the burglar finds the gun, and then he gives it to his brother for protection because he lives in a rough neighborhood, and then the brother gives it to his cousin's boyfriend, and then the gun changes hands a dozen more time in the same way, and the exact same thing happens 100 other times with a 100 other guns and before you know it you have 101 guns on the streets of a high-crime neighborhood and no one in possession of the guns has any idea where they came from, even if cops catch them, confiscate the guns and interrogate the people who were holding them.

The situation is difficult (to put it mildly) as long as guns are readily available for purchase in this country, and the constitution prevents us from banning guns, so our policymakers are going to have to start getting more creative. There are many things we can do to make the situation better, but it will take some clever politicking.

I'm willing to bet that there many parts of this country with a far higher gun per capita rate than Chicago.....possibly something else is systemically wrong with Chicago?

 

[Emcee77]

Chicago already has some of the strictest gun control in the country, which seems to correlate positively, not negatively, with gun violence.

I don't know about that. I mean, obviously gun control laws will be positively correlated with gun violence; if you have no gun violence problem, you have no need to enact gun control laws. If you are trying to say that no form of gun control can possibly abate gun crime in Chicago, I would disagree. Based on my personal experience in the Cook County criminal courts, a lot of Chicago gun crime would not happen if the people involved did not have access to guns.

True, a lot of the "organized" gang-related or drug-related gun crime is probably hard to abate with gun control laws because many of those criminals are so determined to get guns that they would find a way to do it no matter what, but not every case falls into those categories. I had a lot of cases that were "crimes of passion" stemming from petty jealousies and indignities like someone messing with someone else's girlfriend or someone throwing someone else out of a party or whatever, or they were armed robberies by lazy people who wouldn't have the guts or even the desire to rob anyone if there weren't a gun lying around to make it easy for them.

It always seemed to me that in a lot of these cases the gun is what makes the perpetrator feel confident enough to commit a crime; without it, he would be too afraid to go through with it.

I won't claim to know how many crimes fall into that category, but surely a substantial amount.

It's obvious that gun control, in its present form, is not working, but that does not convince me that there is no way to reduce gun crime by reducing the supply of guns on the street. I'm hopeful that there is some way of doing that that we haven't thought of or haven't been able to implement yet.

 

[Emcee77]

I'm willing to bet that there many parts of this country with a far higher gun per capita rate than Chicago.....possibly something else is systemically wrong with Chicago?

Omg, a thousand things! The mindset of someone who would say, "man, I got smacked around a little bit today by So-and-So because I said something rude about his sister, so I had better get a gun and kill him" is just baffling to me. It goes so much deeper than the amount of guns. That's what I was trying to get at when I said that gun violence is "ingrained in the culture." The supply of guns is just one contributing factor, possibly the easiest factor to alter. I mean, it's pretty tough to change the fact that a person grew up with no dad and an abusive mom.

 

[Irish Insanity]

"I want to join a gang and murder a bunch of people, but darn if those pesky gun laws don't make it impossible for me to legally obtain a weapon."

- No Person Ever

Lulz.

 

[Emcee77]

"I want to join a gang and murder a bunch of people, but darn if those pesky gun laws don't make it impossible for me to legally obtain a weapon."

- No Person Ever

Right, no one has ever said that. As I've said above, gun control laws are unlikely to eradicate organized gang-related and drug-related gun violence. (Also, there's an obvious alternative solution ... organized crime can be fought with good policing.)

However, based on my experience in the Cook County criminal courts, workable gun control laws might reduce "crime of passion" gun violence or "lone wolf" armed robberies. Those crimes are very difficult to prevent with good policing because they happen sort of spontaneously. We need another approach.

Gun control is not working, but I'm hopeful we can come up with a workable solution. I have no idea what it would be.

 

[wizards8507]

However, based on my experience in the Cook County criminal courts, workable gun control laws might reduce "crime of passion" gun violence...

The statistics might bear that out, but it's not really a "win" so much as a substitution. A guy who would have shot his wife but doesn't have a gun is still going to stab her, choke her, pummel her, or some other such thing.

 

[Wild Bill]

Right, no one has ever said that. As I've said above, gun control laws are unlikely to eradicate organized gang-related and drug-related gun violence. (Also, there's an obvious alternative solution ... organized crime can be fought with good policing.)

However, based on my experience in the Cook County criminal courts, workable gun control laws might reduce "crime of passion" gun violence or "lone wolf" armed robberies. Those crimes are very difficult to prevent with good policing because they happen sort of spontaneously. We need another approach.

Gun control is not working, but I'm hopeful we can come up with a workable solution. I have no idea what it would be.

These types of crimes could be prevented if law abiding citizens were armed. Imminent death deters everyone, including criminals.

 

[Emcee77]

The statistics might bear that out, but it's not really a "win" so much as a substitution. A guy who would have shot his wife but doesn't have a gun is still going to stab her, choke her, pummel her, or some other such thing.

I agree with part of what you say, but again you've misunderstood me. I'm talking about the case of, say, a kid who gets beaten up on the street corner, so he goes and gets his older brother's gun and shoots up the house of the kid who beat him up. Or the guy who sees his ex with her new man, so he whips out a gun and shoots and kills the man. Some of these crimes might still happen even if the criminal had no access to a gun, but some would not if the intended victim is much tougher than the criminal, or if he is protected by a group of people for at least enough time for the criminal to cool off. The gun makes the criminal feel tough, and that allows him to get over his fear of losing the fight.

 

[Emcee77]

These types of crimes could be prevented if law abiding citizens were armed. Imminent death deters everyone, including criminals.

Maybe, but maybe it would just encourage gunfights, resulting in more net deaths--more gunshots means more bystanders being shot and more victims, including perhaps the initial aggressor.

 

[wizards8507]

I agree with part of what you say, but again you've misunderstood me. I'm talking about the case of, say, a kid who gets beaten up on the street corner, so he goes and gets his older brother's gun and shoots up the house of the kid who beat him up. Or the guy who sees his ex with her new man, so he whips out a gun and shoots and kills the man. Some of these crimes might still happen even if the criminal had no access to a gun, but some would not if the intended victim is much tougher than the criminal, or if he is protected by a group of people for at least enough time for the criminal to cool off. The gun makes the criminal feel tough, and that allows him to get over his fear of losing the fight.

As Wild Bill pointed out, an armed victim eliminates that sense of invincibility on the part of the aggressor.

 

[Ndaccountant]

These types of crimes could be prevented if law abiding citizens were armed. Imminent death deters everyone, including criminals.

I say we bring back duels.

 

[Emcee77]

As Wild Bill pointed out, an armed victim eliminates that sense of invincibility on the part of the aggressor.

I've already responded with this ...

Maybe, but maybe it would just encourage gunfights, resulting in more net deaths--more gunshots means more bystanders being shot and more victims, including perhaps the initial aggressor.

and I'll add that in Chicago so many of these crimes take place between groups of people in densely populated areas. The more gunshots, the more bystander deaths.

Also, an armed intended victim would probably not eliminate the sense of invincibility. It would merely level the playing field somewhat, and the criminal would be just as likely to take his chances with a level playing field, thinking himself a better shot than his adversary or thinking he could take him unawares.

 

[Cackalacky]

These types of crimes could be prevented if law abiding citizens were armed. Imminent death deters everyone, including criminals.

Gun Threats and Self-Defense Gun Use | Harvard Injury Control Research Center | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

the good guy with a gun... If only there were more guns.....whatever the framing is ...the use of guns in Self defense is so small as to be considered negligible compared to other uses of guns in crimes. It's literally less than 1 percent.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

 

[Cackalacky]

As Wild Bill pointed out, an armed victim eliminates that sense of invincibility on the part of the aggressor.

Nope.

 

[Cackalacky]

Guns do two things that almost no other limited ranged weapon does...
It allows for death to be dispensed at a safe distance for the perp compared to the vicitm and it is also much easier to physically pull the trigger compared to what is required by other weapons or ones hands. Most gun deaths don't occur in face to face battle, they occur at a safe distance for the perp and require little physical exertion of the perps behalf.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The lack of normal families is the main problem, but the government cannot do very much to fix it. We have to deal with these kids as they are now. The only option is stern punishment, with the resultant "disparate impact." The war on police has costs.

Don't expect MLK Drive to be renamed anytime soon, either. If it was "Lee Drive" it would be long gone.

 

[Buster Bluth]

The overwhelming majority of the children in these neighborhoods are raised in single parent homes, then they're sent to failing and bankrupt public schools and finally released into the working world to compete for jobs with zero skills to offer an employer who is forced to pay them a wage they aren't worth.

The slobs we call our local government got us here with moronic policies. They'll never get us out.

See I love this but it puzzles me why conservatives of all people leave out criticizing the federal government here too. They are the ones who codified racist banking policies that basically eliminated any sort of investment in these neighborhoods. They are the ones who refused to back mixed-race suburban developments, thus essentially locking blacks in imploding neighborhoods. And then when they predictably imploded and became fatherless drug havens, they didn't act to solve the problem but to create a drug war that guaranteed millions would be unemployable via felonies, not to mention the black market drug trade that serves to empower the very gangs they supposedly oppose. Where are those points?

 

[ACamp1900]

The lack of normal families is the main problem, but the government cannot do very much to fix it. We have to deal with these kids as they are now. The only option is stern punishment, with the resultant "disparate impact." The war on police has costs.

Don't expect MLK Drive to be renamed anytime soon, either. If it was "Lee Drive" it would be long gone.

oy vey

 

[wizards8507]

See I love this but it puzzles me why conservatives of all people leave out criticizing the federal government here too. They are the ones who codified racist banking policies that basically eliminated any sort of investment in these neighborhoods. They are the ones who refused to back mixed-race suburban developments, thus essentially locking blacks in imploding neighborhoods. And then when they predictably imploded and became fatherless drug havens, they didn't act to solve the problem but to create a drug war that guaranteed millions would be unemployable via felonies, not to mention the black market drug trade that serves to empower the very gangs they supposedly oppose. Where are those points?

#StandWithRand

Paul: Drug laws foster 'culture of violence' | TheHill

 

[Voltaire]

See I love this but it puzzles me why conservatives of all people leave out criticizing the federal government here too. They are the ones who codified racist banking policies that basically eliminated any sort of investment in these neighborhoods. They are the ones who refused to back mixed-race suburban developments, thus essentially locking blacks in imploding neighborhoods. And then when they predictably imploded and became fatherless drug havens, they didn't act to solve the problem but to create a drug war that guaranteed millions would be unemployable via felonies, not to mention the black market drug trade that serves to empower the very gangs they supposedly oppose. Where are those points?

What are the codified racist banking policies?

 

[Grahambo]

Stop and frisk.

 

[Redbar]

See I love this but it puzzles me why conservatives of all people leave out criticizing the federal government here too. They are the ones who codified racist banking policies that basically eliminated any sort of investment in these neighborhoods. They are the ones who refused to back mixed-race suburban developments, thus essentially locking blacks in imploding neighborhoods. And then when they predictably imploded and became fatherless drug havens, they didn't act to solve the problem but to create a drug war that guaranteed millions would be unemployable via felonies, not to mention the black market drug trade that serves to empower the very gangs they supposedly oppose. Where are those points?

For these reasons, and many others we have effectively isolated a segment of our citizenry in such ignore-ance and poverty that we get:

Omg, a thousand things! The mindset of someone who would say, "man, I got smacked around a little bit today by So-and-So because I said something rude about his sister, so I had better get a gun and kill him" is just baffling to me. It goes so much deeper than the amount of guns. That's what I was trying to get at when I said that gun violence is "ingrained in the culture." The supply of guns is just one contributing factor, possibly the easiest factor to alter. I mean, it's pretty tough to change the fact that a person grew up with no dad and an abusive mom.

Voila, someone where we can't even begin to understand the thought process and indifference.

Unlike some who would quote statistics or place a policy or two in a vacuum, and then conclude that there is an inherent difference in people's nature, getting high on their perceived superiority. I wholeheartedly agree with Buster and those who will admit that these atrocities were by design, and as such, the product is a self fulfilling prophecy.