A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[ACamp1900]

I don't like her in the show or the book because I just find her to be boring. I like literally all the other characters surrounding her but when she is the focus individually I zone out. I.e. when it was her and Drogon on the mountain I almost fell asleep.

I don't know whether I would put her in the good or bad category but you're right about her mischaracterization.

....and I'm posting too much

Her chapters in the books were SO hard to get through imo... I just kept waiting for her to die .. lol

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I agree that Tyrion is generally good but he's not "Saint Tyrion" as depicted in the show.

Listening to Benioff spout off about how Tyrion and Dany have a Progressive vision for the future of Westeros was stomach turning. Martin's story definitely contains some modern sensibilities, but the ham-fisted way B&W have turned some of the protagonists into secular liberal saints is just ridiculous editorializing.

For all the minor foibles of the books, I'm very grateful that GRRM wasn't such a hack as to nakedly politicize the story.

 

[wizards8507]

For all the minor foibles of the books, I'm very grateful that GRRM wasn't such a hack as to nakedly politicize the story.

You mean the sparrows' binge murder through King's Landing because obviously religious people hate gays wasn't subtle enough for you?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLax]

But consider (a) that the Sons of Harpy are wearing these ridiculous masks that are likely heavy and impair vision; (b) the Unsullied are basically the Spartans in that they defend and attack as one unit while the Show has depicted them as bumbling around getting into individual fights where they are actually very capable of defeating a force 10x as big as theirs; and (c) why are there only a few dozen in the arena in the first place when Dany gets attacked? There are supposed to be 10,000 Unsullied but only 50-100 of them are protecting her in a massive crowd? Maybe it's that way in the books too but it seemed off to me.

You can't fight as a unit when beset on all sides, that's the crux of the issue. If you lined up the Unsullied 10 across in a street and had the SoH run at them headlong... yeah, they'd defend that for days and kill scores of them. That's not what is happening. You're having them get caught in situation where they have to defend 360 degrees and don't ever have the numbers to set up something that would work.

Which brings us to point (c)... why the fuck are they patrolling in groups of 2 or 3? Why are there a half dozen guarding the queen instead of 100+? That's the part that's unrealistic, not that they're losing as configured. With short swords and minimum groups of 8-12 they'd be really hard to take on. But they don't.

Even in the stadium scene, where there are few of them but at lest a decent quantity they kill dozens of SoH and effectively force a stalemate in the middle of the arena.

 

[IrishLax]

You mean the sparrows' binge murder through King's Landing because obviously religious people hate gays wasn't subtle enough for you?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

"There's a special place in hell for man fuckers" was the line where I almost stopped watching the show.

 

[IrishLax]

Also, why doesn't Stannis' sword glow in the show?

 

[ACamp1900]

Also, why doesn't Stannis' sword glow in the show?

Too hawkish....

 

[wizards8507]

Also, why doesn't Stannis' sword glow in the show?

Mel doesn't appear to have any glamour powers in the show.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Irish YJ]

"There's a special place in hell for man fuckers" was the line where I almost stopped watching the show.

IMO, they've given points of view from enough characters that every group can like and dislike. I don't necessarily read so much into it that anyone is taking sides or trying to make a statement. It is Hollywood and fantasy after all.

 

[IrishinSyria]

You can't fight as a unit when beset on all sides, that's the crux of the issue. If you lined up the Unsullied 10 across in a street and had the SoH run at them headlong... yeah, they'd defend that for days and kill scores of them. That's not what is happening. You're having them get caught in situation where they have to defend 360 degrees and don't ever have the numbers to set up something that would work.

Which brings us to point (c)... why the fuck are they patrolling in groups of 2 or 3? Why are there a half dozen guarding the queen instead of 100+? That's the part that's unrealistic, not that they're losing as configured. With short swords and minimum groups of 8-12 they'd be really hard to take on. But they don't.

Even in the stadium scene, where there are few of them but at lest a decent quantity they kill dozens of SoH and effectively force a stalemate in the middle of the arena.

This is a gripe with the books/Dany, not the show. In the books a) the unsullied are unsuited to urban warfare and b) Dany institutes a buddy system for them after the first one gets his throat cut. Besides that, everything you wrote in the last two posts has been spot on, the unsullied scenes are not an issue at all and the fact people think they are just goes to show how much people have been conditioned to expect one good fighter to be able to take on hordes of mediocre ones.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Varamyr Sixskins (who is dying) expects that he will lose his skinchanging ability when he possesses the spearwife Thistle, so probably not. In other words, Martin's writing on the subject to date seems to indicate that a skinchangers powers are specific to his or her human body.

Here's a collection of warg and skinchanger references in the series.

But there are also indications that Jon has more power as a skinchanger than Sixskins (who is also only speculating that he will lose his powers).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You can't fight as a unit when beset on all sides, that's the crux of the issue. If you lined up the Unsullied 10 across in a street and had the SoH run at them headlong... yeah, they'd defend that for days and kill scores of them. That's not what is happening. You're having them get caught in situation where they have to defend 360 degrees and don't ever have the numbers to set up something that would work.

Which brings us to point (c)... why the fuck are they patrolling in groups of 2 or 3? Why are there a half dozen guarding the queen instead of 100+? That's the part that's unrealistic, not that they're losing as configured. With short swords and minimum groups of 8-12 they'd be really hard to take on. But they don't.

Even in the stadium scene, where there are few of them but at lest a decent quantity they kill dozens of SoH and effectively force a stalemate in the middle of the arena.

This is a gripe with the books/Dany, not the show. In the books a) the unsullied are unsuited to urban warfare and b) Dany institutes a buddy system for them after the first one gets his throat cut. Besides that, everything you wrote in the last two posts has been spot on, the unsullied scenes are not an issue at all and the fact people think they are just goes to show how much people have been conditioned to expect one good fighter to be able to take on hordes of mediocre ones.

I don't have a problem with the Unsullied being tactically ineffective as a city guard. Nor do I have a problem with their patrols getting overwhelmed/ ambushed by Sons of the Harpy. My problem is simply with the way the Unsullied have been portrayed. In the books, these guys are ultimate bad asses who endure a brutal initiation ritual. So when Dany turns on Kraznys and takes 10,000 of these guys into her employ, you know that's a big f*cking deal.

Conversely, what do Shownlies think of D&B's Unsullied? They don't come across as elite or imposing at all. They didn't even bother to cast large muscular men for the roles; instead they just grabbed a bunch of skinny extras and stuck them in boiled leather. What happens when they get ambushed by the Sons of the Harpy? Do they pull their short swords and dispatch 3-4 before finally getting swarmed down? No, they usually stick one guy in the stomach with a spear before promptly getting stabbed in the back.

It didn't have to be that way. How hard would it have been for D&B to indicate their status as elite warriors, even as they're getting overwhelmed?

But there are also indications that Jon has more power as a skinchanger than Sixskins (who is also only speculating that he will lose his powers).

What indications are those? That's definitely true for Bran, but not for Jon. All of the Stark children (including their cousin, Jon) have shown flashes of green sight, but only Bran seems to be especially powerful.

 

[wizards8507]

What indications are those? That's definitely true for Bran, but not for Jon. All of the Stark children (including their cousin, Jon) have shown flashes of green sight, but only Bran seems to be especially powerful.

And even for Bran, it took tons of practice for all but his direwolf.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I don't have a problem with the Unsullied being tactically ineffective as a city guard. Nor do I have a problem with their patrols getting overwhelmed/ ambushed by Sons of the Harpy. My problem is simply with the way the Unsullied have been portrayed. In the books, these guys are ultimate bad asses who endure a brutal initiation ritual. So when Dany turns on Kraznys and takes 10,000 of these guys into her employ, you know that's a big f*cking deal.

Conversely, what do Shownlies think of D&B's Unsullied? They don't come across as elite or imposing at all. They didn't even bother to cast large muscular men for the roles; instead they just grabbed a bunch of skinny extras and stuck them in boiled leather. What happens when they get ambushed by the Sons of the Harpy? Do they pull their short swords and dispatch 3-4 before finally getting swarmed down? No, they usually stick one guy in the stomach with a spear before promptly getting stabbed in the back.

It didn't have to be that way. How hard would it have been for D&B to indicate their status as elite warriors, even as they're getting overwhelmed?



What indications are those? That's definitely true for Bran, but not for Jon. All of the Stark children (including their cousin, Jon) have shown flashes of green sight, but only Bran seems to be especially powerful.

I think the not heavily muscled thing is deliberate and accurate- one side effect of being castrated is that your body stops producing a ton of testosterone, which in turn retards muscle development. The unsullied are not great individual warriors, they're feared because their discipline and lack of fear makes them an unmatched force for large scale formation based warfare. I'd agree the show doesn't capture that very well, but it hasn't really had an opportunity to yet.

Re: Jon being a better warg, I'd have to go back and find the line in the Sixskins chapter, but he thinks something like "the gift was strong" in Jon when he's musing about how he almost tried to take over his dire wolf.

e. I don't think I conveyed this well in my first message, but I actually think your Snow wargs into Ghost, Mel revives his body, he wargs back into Kit Herrington is dead on, as are most of your posts ITT.

 

[phork]

My sister asked me the other day about who is good and bad. I had to explain that good and bad is relative. Like in Babylon 5 where the Vorlons were supposed to be this greater entity of good vs the Shadows as evil. In the end we find out they were fucking everyone over equally.

 

[ACamp1900]

My sister asked me the other day about who is good and bad. I had to explain that good and bad is relative. Like in Babylon 5 where the Vorlons were supposed to be this greater entity of good vs the Shadows as evil. In the end we find out they were fucking everyone over equally.

Why didn't you just tell her,... "All the good guys were murdered sis...."

 

[phork]

Why didn't you just tell her,... "All the good guys were murdered sis...."

I didnt have to. Thats what she thought.

 

[ACamp1900]

I didnt have to. Thats what she thought.

A woman knows.

 

[wizards8507]

The ‘Game of Thrones’ Book Symposium: A Spoiler-Filled Discussion of the Season Finale and Predictions for Season 6 «

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the not heavily muscled thing is deliberate and accurate- one side effect of being castrated is that your body stops producing a ton of testosterone, which in turn retards muscle development. The unsullied are not great individual warriors, they're feared because their discipline and lack of fear makes them an unmatched force for large scale formation based warfare. I'd agree the show doesn't capture that very well, but it hasn't really had an opportunity to yet.

I phrased that poorly. I don't think the Unsullied need to look just like the Spartans from 300. But men who "train from dawn to dusk until they have mastered the shortsword, shield, and three lengths of spear" would look a helluva lot more athletic than this guy:

Re: Jon being a better warg, I'd have to go back and find the line in the Sixskins chapter, but he thinks something like "the gift was strong" in Jon when he's musing about how he almost tried to take over his dire wolf.

You were right. From the prologue to ADWD:

When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the
beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

Add the bolded to the already huge pile of contextual clues about Jon's parentage.

 

[ND NYC]

in retrospect, have to tip my hat to the casting people at GOT at HBO.

they took mostly unknown actors and cast them damn near perfectly for the characters they play.

my top 5 casting jobs:
Tyrion
Varys
Joffrey
Cersei
Dany
Brienne

not included (actors were already pretty well known):
Ned
Tywin
Mance
Cat

least favorite castings:
Ygritte
Arya
Robb
Sansa
Grey Worm (pretty much everyone in Mereen)
Sam

 

[Whiskeyjack]

least favorite castings:
Ygritte
Arya
Robb
Sansa
Grey Worm (pretty much everyone in Mereen)
Sam

I'm with you on Grey Worm, but I'm curious why you don't like the other 5.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's a post from /r/asoiaf: (1) speculating as to how the battle between Stannis and the advancing Bolton forces is likely to play out; and (2) explaining why Stannis' defeat in the show is actually a good thing for book readers.

 

[IrishLax]

in retrospect, have to tip my hat to the casting people at GOT at HBO.

they took mostly unknown actors and cast them damn near perfectly for the characters they play.

my top 5 casting jobs:
Tyrion
Varys
Joffrey
Cersei
Dany
Brienne

not included (actors were already pretty well known):
Ned
Tywin
Mance
Cat

least favorite castings:
Ygritte
Arya
Robb
Sansa
Grey Worm (pretty much everyone in Mereen)
Sam

Cersei was cast awful, IMO. Don't understand your gripe with Sam or Ygritte whatsoever.

 

[IrishLion]

I think the general consensus on Ygritte's casting is that Rose Leslie is too good-looking lol.

I kind of agree, but I'm also not complaining... it's TV, and that Wildling can pull my bow-string if she wants.

 

[IrishLax]

Here's a post from /r/asoiaf: (1) speculating as to how the battle between Stannis and the advancing Bolton forces is likely to play out; and (2) explaining why Stannis' defeat in the show is actually a good thing for book readers.

Ramsay "Shirtless Napolean" Snow... LOL

 

[phork]

Ramsay "Shirtless Napolean" Snow... LOL

Bolton... He is now a Bolton..

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Ramsay "Shirtless Napolean" Snow... LOL

I also enjoyed this blurb from the /r/asoiaf post gk shared yesterday:

Yara/Asha and "The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles" lose a fight to a shirtless guy with a knife and 3 dogs, which is roughly what you would encounter on your average domestic disturbance call. The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles couldn't survive half an episode of "Cops"

 

[arndtjc]

Just binge watched this show from beginning to end in about three weeks. Finished season 5 episode 9 a half hour before episode 10 aired. Beautifully done, really looking forward to the consequences of everything that happened the last couple episodes

 

[Grahambo]

'Game Of Thrones' Author George RR Martin Irritated By Mistakes In His Books

Author George RR Martin recently admitted that he's irritated by minor mistakes that appear in the novels upon which the HBO television series "Game of Thrones" is based. Martin is the author of the book series “A Song of Ice and Fire.” Last week, during an appearance at the 92nd Street Y in New York City, Martin said that the mistakes can affect the impact of deliberate inconsistencies he cleverly wrote into the books.

Martin frequently appears at book and television conventions. Last week, he was interviewed in front of a live audience about the creation of “A Song of Ice and Fire” and “Game of Thrones.” Business Insider shared a short clip from the interview, where Martin speaks about mistakes in the books. He says that there are some small mistakes, such as the color of some characters' eyes.

“These are simple mistakes but they irritate me,” Martin says.

Martin explains that he is using the “point of view” narrative to show how two of his characters may remember some incidents in very different ways. The books are told from the points of view of the characters and he feels that in putting in these small differences, he is able to show a difference in the characters’ experiences. He says that he feels that it is a very clever writing device that he is using. However, the mistakes make it seem like the deliberate inconsistencies are less meaningful and are also just minor mistakes.

The clip doesn’t give examples of the deliberate inconsistencies, but Martin did speak about some details that he would call mistakes. He went all the way back to the first book, where there was a feast in Winterfell in honor of the king’s arrival. He forgot to mention Bran Stark when he spoke about the Stark children from Jon Snow's point of view. He said that he received numerous letters asking about the omission and whether it meant anything. He sadly admits that he simply forgot.

He also feels that his introduction of Tyrion Lannister could have been done differently. The dwarf supposedly did a somersault off a door frame during his first meeting with Jon Snow. Martin now feels that he could have written the scene differently.

"The Winds of Winter," the sixth installment of “A Song of Ice and Fire,” is expected to arrive this year. The series “Game of Thrones” just concluded Season 5, with Season 6 expected to begin next spring on HBO.