Stolen Valor / Disrespecting the American Flag

[pumpdog20]

The flag is a symbol of Americanism. Pretty simple to me, if you burn the flag, you don't like America. If you don't like America, GTFO and live somewhere else. Pretty sure those people that burn the flag wouldn't be happy wherever they go. Just malcontents that feel the need to push the envelope and seek attention.

Stolen valor... It disgusts me. Probably not the lowest of the low, but I struggle to understand how people can stoop that low. If they get punched in the face, I'm perfectly OK with it.

Serious question to the military folks:
Back during DStorm, my best friend (Marines) gave me one of his fatigue sets (no symbols, etc). I've cherished them all these years and wear them once or twice a year hunting or trout fishing in the mountains. Is this OK, or is it disrespectful. I've never really pondered the question until this thread.

People go to surplus stores all the time and wear old uniforms. Where them out in the garden for all I care. We get pissed when you're looking for recognition or benefits that you didn't earn.

 

[Irish YJ]

Suffice it to say, I've just been a pr!ck lately and I'm trying to temper it. I don't know what has drastically changed in my life but I've run into a grey mood where I have less patience and I feel more irritation at the smallest of things (a f&ck!ng internet messageboard of all things).

There is a discontent in me that's been brewing from something that I either haven't identified or that I'm afraid to face. Not sure what it is but it's raining psychic damage down on my life. I can only give an anonymous promise that I'm trying to temper it and get to the bottom of it. My apologies if my responses have been less thoughtful and more aggressive.

I think it's time for me to step away for a bit and get myself back in order.

Hang in there. We all go through funks.

 

[kmoose]

Not disrespectful to me but some of our soldiers and Marines on here will say my opinion does not count because I was in the Navy. Cool that the fatigues mean so much to you.

It's not being a squid that makes your opinion not count. It's being a slack-jawed hippie that makes it not count!

 

[Irish YJ]

I somewhat disagree. In the U.S. we make changes as needed (yes even to the Constitution), who decides what is sacred? Do we go by your definition of what should be sacred, my definition of what should be sacred, the founders, ACamp's, Whiskeyjack? Should a Christian, or a Jewish person, or a Muslim or even a Mormon decide what is sacred to the U.S. I think the one thing that should be sacred is respect.



This I can mostly agree with.

I'll rephrase. There is no respect anymore for what is sacred to groups or individuals.

I'm using sacred in the following context..

Sacred means revered due to sanctity, is in general the state of being holy (perceived by religious individuals as associated with divinity) or sacred (considered worthy of spiritual respect or devotion; or inspiring awe or reverence among believers).

 

[GoIrish41]

It's not being a squid that makes your opinion not count. It's being a slack-jawed hippie that makes it not count!

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[pkt77242]

I'll rephrase. There is no respect anymore for what is sacred to groups or individuals.

I'm using sacred in the following context..

Now that I something with which I can agree.

 

[ACamp1900]

Suffice it to say, I've just been a pr!ck lately and I'm trying to temper it. I don't know what has drastically changed in my life but I've run into a grey mood where I have less patience and I feel more irritation at the smallest of things (a f&ck!ng internet messageboard of all things).

There is a discontent in me that's been brewing from something that I either haven't identified or that I'm afraid to face. Not sure what it is but it's raining psychic damage down on my life. I can only give an anonymous promise that I'm trying to temper it and get to the bottom of it. My apologies if my responses have been less thoughtful and more aggressive.

I think it's time for me to step away for a bit and get myself back in order.

I somewhat disagree. In the U.S. we make changes as needed (yes even to the Constitution), who decides what is sacred? Do we go by your definition of what should be sacred, my definition of what should be sacred, the founders, ACamp's, ...

Yes.

 

[drake29]

That's fine. I will refrain from drawing Mohammed while I am in a mosque. And they can refrain from burning the American flag on American soil.

Except the US Constitution grants the right from anyone to practice Islam anywhere within its boarders...If you would like to practice religious bigotry perhaps you shouldn't be doing it on American soil.

 

[dales5050]

But the speech itself is not the issue. Both are examples of limiting speech. Your assertion is that limiting speech will inevitably lead to limiting more speech, and more speech, and so on. Well, there wasn't a mad dash to limit other speech after they outlawed yelling fire in a movie theater, so I reject your assertion that banning the burning(or other desecration) of the US flag will lead to a run on banning other political speech.

Saying burning of a flag and yelling fire in a theater are both the same thing...as in free speech is like saying apples and oranges are the same thing...as they both grow on trees.

 

[Irish#1]

Suffice it to say, I've just been a pr!ck lately and I'm trying to temper it. I don't know what has drastically changed in my life but I've run into a grey mood where I have less patience and I feel more irritation at the smallest of things (a f&ck!ng internet messageboard of all things).

There is a discontent in me that's been brewing from something that I either haven't identified or that I'm afraid to face. Not sure what it is but it's raining psychic damage down on my life. I can only give an anonymous promise that I'm trying to temper it and get to the bottom of it. My apologies if my responses have been less thoughtful and more aggressive.

I think it's time for me to step away for a bit and get myself back in order.

Had a good bowel movement lately?

 

[kmoose]

Saying burning of a flag and yelling fire in a theater are both the same thing...as in free speech is like saying apples and oranges are the same thing...as they both grow on trees.

But I never said that they were the same thing. Those who support the burning of the American flag are almost always the ones who point to freedom of speech.

 

[kmoose]

Except the US Constitution grants the right from anyone to practice Islam anywhere within its boarders...If you would like to practice religious bigotry perhaps you shouldn't be doing it on American soil.

I forgot that it was religious bigotry to draw a simple picture of Mohammed. Not a grotesque caricature, or a political lampoon of him, but a simple picture. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[drake29]

I forgot that it was religious bigotry to draw a simple picture of Mohammed. Not a grotesque caricature, or a political lampoon of him, but a simple picture. Thanks for reminding me.

Don't be such a child. If you know in your mind and heart that it is offensive then the only purpose you would have to draw the picture is out of spite and possibly some deep rooted hatred of Islam. Please be bigger than that.

 

[dales5050]

But I never said that they were the same thing. Those who support the burning of the American flag are almost always the ones who point to freedom of speech.

I really have no idea what point you're trying to make here. It feels like a long way around the park to justify not wanting to have a flag burned because of feelings and not really any logic around it. Could be wrong.

 

[kmoose]

Don't be such a child. If you know in your mind and heart that it is offensive then the only purpose you would have to draw the picture is out of spite and possibly some deep rooted hatred of Islam. Please be bigger than that.

Your posting here offends me. Now please show me what a man of principle and honor you are, and respect the fact that I am offended by not posting in IE anymore.

 

[kmoose]

I really have no idea what point you're trying to make here. It feels like a long way around the park to justify not wanting to have a flag burned because of feelings and not really any logic around it. Could be wrong.

I was responding to a specific allegation that, if we ban burning of the flag, then it will be a slippery slope that will lead to drastic erosions of our free speech rights. So I used the fire in a theater analogy as an example of when the right to free speech has been abridged, without any attendant run on restricting other forms of free speech. Clearer?

 

[dales5050]

I was responding to a specific allegation that, if we ban burning of the flag, then it will be a slippery slope that will lead to drastic erosions of our free speech rights. So I used the fire in a theater analogy as an example of when the right to free speech has been abridged, without any attendant run on restricting other forms of free speech. Clearer?

Yes. Clear but I disagree.

In addition to referencing the example of an elected official who says Christian prayer should be allowed, in addition to, other religions being silenced at public meetings; I can also point to the Southern Poverty Law Center expanding what they consider 'hate groups' to include 'attitudes against' races and sexual orientation.

On the former, it's clear there is an infiltration and overreach by the far Christian right to take over Government in their ideas and against existing laws. On the latter, it's clear there is an overreach by the far Liberal/Progressive left to control peoples personal beliefs via intimidation.

As for me, I don't want religion close to government and I don't want people who have religious beliefs (as long as what they do is legal) to be silenced by the majority or politically correct police.

If you're elected and want to use your faith as a guide for how you govern, great. You can be elected and kicked out of office on this. But you have no right to place your religious beliefs on the public or colleagues.

If you're someone who feels being gay is a sin and want to shout at the world against this, you should be entitled your opinions as long as you do not take away any freedoms or encroach on others due to your belief structure.

What I see are two very opposite ends heading towards each other for a massive collision and my opinion is the only I see to prevent this explosion is to allow true and complete freedom of expression without penalty.

Again, burning the flag is something that disgusts me but that is just an emotion. This is the key. AN EMOTION.

It causes no harm to anyone and does not put anyone in clear or present danger. Yelling 'FIRE' in a crowded theater can and does put people in danger. Because of this, they are not comparable even though they are similarly tied to 'freedom of speech' and I feel the courts have said as much as well.

Once you open to the door to legislating how people feel....it's a slippery slope. That's my point.

 

[kmoose]

Yes. Clear but I disagree.

In addition to referencing the example of an elected official who says Christian prayer should be allowed, in addition to, other religions being silenced at public meetings; I can also point to the Southern Poverty Law Center expanding what they consider 'hate groups' to include 'attitudes against' races and sexual orientation.

On the former, it's clear there is an infiltration and overreach by the far Christian right to take over Government in their ideas and against existing laws. On the latter, it's clear there is an overreach by the far Liberal/Progressive left to control peoples personal beliefs via intimidation.

That's fine. You can dig up examples of the extremes all day long, and it still won't change the reality that banning yelling fire in a crowded theater did not lead to the banning of all manner of other free speech. I will live in the real, while you dabble in Hypothetical Land.

As for me, I don't want religion close to government and I don't want people who have religious beliefs (as long as what they do is legal) to be silenced by the majority or politically correct police.

If you don't religion close to government, then I suggest that you move to another country, one that isn't "One nation, under God", or that doesn't print "In God We Trust" on it's currency, or whose judicial system does not require you to swear an oath, "so help me, God", in order to testify. The truth is that this country was founded in, guided by, and intertwined with religious principles. Not any ONE religion, mind you, but still...
As to the silencing of religious beliefs......... you will not find another country on the planet that is more welcoming, or tolerant, of various religious beliefs than the United States is. So your worry is kind of a moot point.

If you're someone who feels being gay is a sin and want to shout at the world against this, you should be entitled your opinions as long as you do not take away any freedoms or encroach on others due to your belief structure.

Sin is a religious construct. Burning the flag has nothing to do with religion. Complete apples and oranges. I am not advocating taking away anyone's freedoms. I do advocate changing the laws to provide for penalties for those who do burn the flag.

What I see are two very opposite ends heading towards each other for a massive collision and my opinion is the only I see to prevent this explosion is to allow true and complete freedom of expression without penalty.

Gotcha! So you are FOR pornographic movies that spotlight men having sexual contact with children. I get it. I wouldn't dream of denying you "true and complete freedom of expression without penalty"

Again, burning the flag is something that disgusts me but that is just an emotion. This is the key. AN EMOTION.

It causes no harm to anyone and does not put anyone in clear or present danger. Yelling 'FIRE' in a crowded theater can and does put people in danger. Because of this, they are not comparable even though they are similarly tied to 'freedom of speech' and I feel the courts have said as much as well.

If you think that burning an American flag puts no one in danger, then I invite you to burn one within arm's length of me.
So how is burning a flag comparable to all of these other freedoms that we are bound to lose, in this "slipper slope" argument of yours?

Once you open to the door to legislating how people feel....it's a slippery slope. That's my point.

No one is legislating anyone's feelings. However, there is already a plethora of legislation that regulates how you may legally EXPRESS those feelings. This is no different.

 

[pkt77242]

That's fine. You can dig up examples of the extremes all day long, and it still won't change the reality that banning yelling fire in a crowded theater did not lead to the banning of all manner of other free speech. I will live in the real, while you dabble in Hypothetical Land.



If you don't religion close to government, then I suggest that you move to another country, one that isn't "One nation, under God", or that doesn't print "In God We Trust" on it's currency, or whose judicial system does not require you to swear an oath, "so help me, God", in order to testify. The truth is that this country was founded in, guided by, and intertwined with religious principles. Not any ONE religion, mind you, but still...
As to the silencing of religious beliefs......... you will not find another country on the planet that is more welcoming, or tolerant, of various religious beliefs than the United States is. So your worry is kind of a moot point.



Sin is a religious construct. Burning the flag has nothing to do with religion. Complete apples and oranges. I am not advocating taking away anyone's freedoms. I do advocate changing the laws to provide for penalties for those who do burn the flag.



Gotcha! So you are FOR pornographic movies that spotlight men having sexual contact with children. I get it. I wouldn't dream of denying you "true and complete freedom of expression without penalty"



If you think that burning an American flag puts no one in danger, then I invite you to burn one within arm's length of me.
So how is burning a flag comparable to all of these other freedoms that we are bound to lose, in this "slipper slope" argument of yours?



No one is legislating anyone's feelings. However, there is already a plethora of legislation that regulates how you may legally EXPRESS those feelings. This is no different.

We legislate how you may express those feelings when it harms someone else. Burning the flag doesn't harm someone else, thus it shouldn't be banned. You have given zero reason why it should be illegal other than that it offends you, not exactly a sound reason to make it illegal

The real crux of the issue as you have shown in this thread is that you have zero ability to step back and look at something from a perspective other than your own. You seem to have a my way or the highway approach to life.

 

[kmoose]

We legislate how you may express those feelings when it harms someone else. Burning the flag doesn't harm someone else, thus it shouldn't be banned. You have given zero reason why it should be illegal other than that it offends you, not exactly a sound reason to make it illegal

The real crux of the issue as you have shown in this thread is that you have zero ability to step back and look at something from a perspective other than your own. You seem to have a my way or the highway approach to life.

OR.........

I could simply be following United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10:

USFlag.org: A website dedicated to the Flag of the United States of America - United States Code

This is NOT a criminal code, but it is still a US Code covering the flag. It''s not like I am just making shit up as I go. From the above Code:

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

So you are ok with burning living things as a freedom of expression?

The REAL crux of the issue is the vast amount of ignorance surrounding the flag code...

 

[GoldenDome]

If you think that burning an American flag puts no one in danger, then I invite you to burn one within arm's length of me.
.

Stop being so sensitive.

 

[pkt77242]

OR.........

I could simply be following United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10:

USFlag.org: A website dedicated to the Flag of the United States of America - United States Code

This is NOT a criminal code, but it is still a US Code covering the flag. It''s not like I am just making shit up as I go. From the above Code:



So you are ok with burning living things as a freedom of expression?

The REAL crux of the issue is the vast amount of ignorance surrounding the flag code...

Again it isn't a criminal code.

 

[ACamp1900]

I def. understand moose's emotions on this issue, but def stand by burning of the flag should be legal... it's an undisputed d bag move every time though imo

 

[pkt77242]

I def. understand moose's emotions on this issue, but def stand by burning of the flag should be legal... it's an undisputed d bag move every time though imo

No one is really arguing that (though I did try to bring up a few thought provoking scenarios earlier). We are just saying that it is free speech and should be legal.

 

[ACamp1900]

No one is really arguing that (though I did try to bring up a few thought provoking scenarios earlier). We are just saying that it is free speech and should be legal.

Oh I totally understand that, I just threw that in there for it's own sake...

 

[kmoose]

No one is really arguing that (though I did try to bring up a few thought provoking scenarios earlier). We are just saying that it is free speech and should be legal.

It IS legal, and I respect that. I don't agree with it and would like it to be changed, but I respect what it is. I was merely explaining why I don't buy the "slippery slope" argument.

 

[greyhammer90]

A key part of being an American is freedom of speech. A key part of free speech is being able to hate American values. To ban flag burning would harm the flag much more than the burning could.

 

[dales5050]

That's fine. You can dig up examples of the extremes all day long, and it still won't change the reality that banning yelling fire in a crowded theater did not lead to the banning of all manner of other free speech. I will live in the real, while you dabble in Hypothetical Land.

Heh. This conversation started off with me saying what I see the eventual progression is. That can only be done with a hypothesis.

If you don't religion close to government, then I suggest that you move to another country, one that isn't "One nation, under God", or that doesn't print "In God We Trust" on it's currency, or whose judicial system does not require you to swear an oath, "so help me, God", in order to testify. The truth is that this country was founded in, guided by, and intertwined with religious principles. Not any ONE religion, mind you, but still...
As to the silencing of religious beliefs......... you will not find another country on the planet that is more welcoming, or tolerant, of various religious beliefs than the United States is. So your worry is kind of a moot point.

Looks like someone needs to go pick up a book or two and read about the history of the country you're so proud to be a member of.

"One Nation, under God" was added to the pledge in the 1950s.

'In God We Trust' was added to currency around the time of the Civil War.

"So Help Me God" was added to oaths around the 1780s and it's not in the Presidential Oath.

All of these are after add ins from what the founding fathers wanted.

Sin is a religious construct. Burning the flag has nothing to do with religion. Complete apples and oranges. I am not advocating taking away anyone's freedoms. I do advocate changing the laws to provide for penalties for those who do burn the flag.

And I think you're wrong to do so. One, it's pretty pathetic that you want to create laws around 'the feels' and two, wanting to create law that would prevent burning the flag show a lack of understanding to the founding ideals of this nation.

Gotcha! So you are FOR pornographic movies that spotlight men having sexual contact with children. I get it. I wouldn't dream of denying you "true and complete freedom of expression without penalty"

Could you be any more of a freaking tool? Am I on a MSNBC or FOX news interview?

No, I am not for that you idiot.

If you think that burning an American flag puts no one in danger, then I invite you to burn one within arm's length of me.

So how is burning a flag comparable to all of these other freedoms that we are bound to lose, in this "slipper slope" argument of yours?

Oh...we have a keyboard warrior. Do you feel better about yourself tough guy? I would never burn the flag but it has nothing to do with fear of what you or anyone else would do.

There are protests like this all of the time. How about you step away from your keyboard and get in an arms length of those folks?

 

[Bishop2b5]

As distasteful and offensive as it is, burning the US flag is something I think should remain legal. That right is something the flag is symbolic of. What offends me the most about it though - at least when done by people in this country - is that it's rarely if ever really meant as a protest against our government or it's policies. It's done as a rebuke of or insult to what our country stands for, our culture, our values, our ethos... who we are at our core and what we represent and believe in and love. And it's done by those living IN this country enjoying those things, the benefits bestowed upon them by this country, and the rights granted to them by the very nation they're spitting on. It's one thing if my neighbor criticizes my house, how I run it, or my cooking. It's another thing entirely if a family member whom I'm housing, taking care of and feeding does so.

 

[GoldenDome]

Hypocrisy runs deep. Only when it fits a certain narrative is it unacceptable to offend. Now we must change laws to accommodate those who are offended but not for others.


I guess no one was outraged when this suppression of speech was done. Banned billboard. The outrage over what, because a real soldier has a Muslim wife. How dare they! Some people say the want freedom of speech only if it fits their narrative.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/ad-featuring-soldier-muslim-woman-173052358.html