A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

looks like Littefingers recollection of the Harrenhall Tourney in the crypts with sansa has set the stage for the R+L=J storyline to be used in the show.

The show confirmed R+L=J pretty explicitly last season when they introduced Oberyn.

To me, the most significant point about Jon being the central figure is that it eliminates the notion that Dany is the central figure.

 

[ND NYC]

The show confirmed R+L=J pretty explicitly last season when they introduced Oberyn.

To me, the most significant point about Jon being the central figure is that it eliminates the notion that Dany is the central figure.

I don't think they got into the R+L romance like Littlefinger did when he was telling the tourney-blue flower story.
thought only talked about "other" rhaegar stuff last season but not I don't recall as explicit and detailed like the baelish rambling in the crypt and also selmys chat with dany recalling the "singing rhaegar" .

 

[returnofthemack]

It was interesting how she kept describing herself as "full of life" while trying to seduce Jon, since she's likely far older than she appears. Her attractive visage is just a glamour.



King's blood is necessary to wake a dragon (murdered Jon) from stone (greyscale-afflicted Shireen).



Agreed. Unsullied are supposed to be elite hoplites (Spartans), the greatest foot soldiers in the world. Benioff and Weis have pretty much ruined them in the series.



We don't know that Selmy and Grey Worm died. We saw them collapse after winning a fight. I'd bet they are found and cared for in the next episode.

As an aside, I hate the way they've chosen to portray the Faith Militant. Black robed cultists with pentagrams cut into their foreheads are a caricature (usually reserved for Satanists). Given Martin's worldview, I don't expect him to portray the Faith Militant as a unqualified force for good in Westeros (and really, who is?), but in the books they're at least genuinely pious people who are looking out for the small folk. Not murderous puritans out to destroy taverns, whore houses and teh gayz. Bullsh!t editorializing by Benioff and Weis.

I completely agree with your view on the Faith Militant. I always viewed them the same way I viewed Stannis - overly stubborn, but doing the right thing. So when they try Margaery, they realize she's innocent of the crimes Cersei accused her of, and they know Cersei is guilty of her crimes and punish her. The show just makes them seem like sadistic, cultish dickheads.

 

[IrishLion]

1. Idk if I like that Valyria is a "simple" boat trip through some ruins. Kind of kills the badass mystique from the simple hints you get in the books.

2. Was that Drogon flying over them, or a reveal that there are dragons in the wild?

3. So no Griff then. Were they traveling through Valyria in the books when the stone men attacked?

4. Mormont and Tyrion both getting greyscale? Dragon fire gonna cure them?

 

[IrishHokie22]

1. Idk if I like that Valyria is a "simple" boat trip through some ruins. Kind of kills the badass mystique from the simple hints you get in the books.

2. Was that Drogon flying over them, or a reveal that there are dragons in the wild?

3. So no Griff then. Were they traveling through Valyria in the books when the stone men attacked?

4. Mormont and Tyrion both getting greyscale? Dragon fire gonna cure them?

1. Same. The books made it out to be like this place that you're essentially dead if you go in. Other than getting jumped by some grayscale zombie dudes, didn't seem like there was much to it.

2. Probably Drogon.

3. IIRC no, they weren't going through Valyria. Somewhere on the Rhoyne near a bridge. I'm almost certain they weren't going through Valyria in the books. In fact, I don't believe the stone men are in Valyria in the books.

4. Mormont, apparently. Not sure about Tyrion. Mormont may be toast.

 

[GATTACA!]

1. Idk if I like that Valyria is a "simple" boat trip through some ruins. Kind of kills the badass mystique from the simple hints you get in the books.

I agree. Also I feel like they rushed everything. Two seconds into Valyria they see a dragon and encounter the stone men.

2. Was that Drogon flying over them, or a reveal that there are dragons in the wild?

That was Drogon

3. So no Griff then. Were they traveling through Valyria in the books when the stone men attacked?

Yes i believe so, the second time they go through.

4. Mormont and Tyrion both getting greyscale? Dragon fire gonna cure them?

I dont think Tyrion is going to get it, it seemed like the stone man got him on his clothing. I hadn't thought about dragon fire, kinda an interesting theory. I was wondering with such a small spot why he didnt try and cut that little chunk out. Mormont is kinda vital to the story going forward especially if they are going to roll the rest of Selmy and JonCon into his character, so they are going to have to resolve the greyscale somehow.

I've seen some people speculating that greyscale might replace the pale mare.

 

[IrishLion]

I got this guy for Christmas:

But I haven't delved into it yet, so I haven't had my vision of Valyria officially crushed yet, but the show really bummed me out. I'm glad you guys agreed haha.

When I picture Valyria, I picture some really effed-up ruins sitting in the water in the middle of the ocean, maybe perhaps in a "bay" set against some mountains (aka dormant volcano), with smoke rising from the sea warning off all travel, maybe even with natural fires still burning to complete the desolate image.

Don't get me wrong, the show's setting for the ruins looked nice and was pretty cool... but it didn't do the mystery of Valyria any justice, at all.

EDIT: Whelp, looking at a map of Slaver's Bay, it appears that the ruins of Valyria are literally right next to the bay, with The Smoking Sea forming a perfect alley along the coast and into the bay... the show got it right, I guess

 

[wizards8507]

Though, I suspect that D&D's motivations were to simply provide some exposition about greyscale for when someone important catches it in the future.

Nailed it.

 

[IrishLion]

Grey Worm will surely survive, probably under the care of Missandei because eunuch love story [?].

My own "nailed it."

(Not that this was a huge shocker.)

 

[wizards8507]

Did anyone else get PUMPED during the Stannis and Sam scene? It gave me hope that Stannis might be an endgame player after all.

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[GATTACA!]

Did anyone else get PUMPED during the Stannis and Sam scene? It gave me hope that Stannis might be an endgame player after all.

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I get pumped whenever they show Stannis

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's a cool theory arguing that Benioff and Weis have combined Daario and Euron in the HBO series.

 

[wizards8507]

Here's a cool theory arguing that Benioff and Weis have combined Daario and Euron in the HBO series.

Remind me where Daario is in the books. He dead?

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[Whiskeyjack]

Remind me where Daario is in the books. He dead?

From the wiki:

Daario becomes bad tempered when Dany weds Hizdahr and he leaves her presence. He, along with Jhogo, Captain Groleo, and several others, are given as hostages to Yunkai to vouchsafe for Daenerys's good intentions for peace. When Daenerys disappears on dragonback, the Yunkai'i refuse to release the hostages until the other two dragons are executed. As Daario remains a prisoner of the Yunkai'i, command of the Stormcrows passes to the Widower and Jokin.

Not dead yet.

 

[IrishLax]

These changes from the book are straight nuts. Valyria isn't supposed to be some grassy jungle ruin.

 

[phork]

Why not? I mean can you really send the stone men there if it was a lava infested death island?

Edit: While reading awoiaf.westeros It appears the Doom happens within ~400 years of current events. But is unclear as to what happened. Did it go all Pompeii or just the seismic activity crumble it to the ground..

Also:

Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in.

Anyone get a feeling there might be a trip to Valyria to retrieve a large sum of dragonglass for the winter?

 

[wizards8507]

Nothing like a good raping before bed. They're killing me this season.

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[NDinMich]

Nothing like a good raping before bed. They're killing me this season.

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Yeah, getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Bronn's a dead man, isn't he?

 

[Luckylucci]

Nothing like a good raping before bed. They're killing me this season.

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Haven't been all that pleased with this season. Talked to some big fans of the books and shows that have stopped watching as of last week. Wonder if there is enough of that, should it change anything

 

[wizards8507]

Bronn's a dead man, isn't he?

Absolutely. The sand snake fight with poison blades.

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[IrishLion]

I was disappointed with how the show depicted the visuals of Valyria... not so with the Many-Faced chamber. I was amazed with the idea they came up with.

I don't remember the description from the books, but I know that is NOT what I visualized in my head, and I'm glad I was wrong haha. Massive columns, one after another, all seemingly with a tiny alter to each face... very cool. Arya learning to lie as Jaqen looked on was a fantastic scene.

The Sansa-Ramsey storyline hasn't bothered me, but the end of that episode was uncomfortable. I'm very curious as to who convinces Reek to help rescue Sansa... will Mance be brought back in a shocker, or will it simply be those that remain loyal in the North?

The Margaery/Cersei storyline is proceeding nicely I think, and brings up a big point from the books... in the books, it's kind of left open as to whether or nor Margaery is actually fooling around behind closed doors. In the show, none of that is present; rather, they've used her lying on behalf of Loras as her crime. I'm curious as to how she gets out of the situation, and to see what forces Lancel to out Cersei to turn the tides.

 

[wizards8507]

The Margaery/Cersei storyline is proceeding nicely I think, and brings up a big point from the books... in the books, it's kind of left open as to whether or nor Margaery is actually fooling around behind closed doors. In the show, none of that is present; rather, they've used her lying on behalf of Loras as her crime. I'm curious as to how she gets out of the situation, and to see what forces Lancel to out Cersei to turn the tides.

I think the feel of Cersei versus Margaery is spoiled in the show. Margaery's skill has always been playing the game of thrones without ever actually appearing to do so. By having her lie to the Faith about a sin that everyone knows to be true, she's falling into bumbling Cersei's ineptitude.

 

[Emcee77]

I was disappointed with how the show depicted the visuals of Valyria... not so with the Many-Faced chamber. I was amazed with the idea they came up with.

I don't remember the description from the books, but I know that is NOT what I visualized in my head, and I'm glad I was wrong haha. Massive columns, one after another, all seemingly with a tiny alter to each face... very cool. Arya learning to lie as Jaqen looked on was a fantastic scene.

The Sansa-Ramsey storyline hasn't bothered me, but the end of that episode was uncomfortable. I'm very curious as to who convinces Reek to help rescue Sansa... will Mance be brought back in a shocker, or will it simply be those that remain loyal in the North?

The Margaery/Cersei storyline is proceeding nicely I think, and brings up a big point from the books... in the books, it's kind of left open as to whether or nor Margaery is actually fooling around behind closed doors. In the show, none of that is present; rather, they've used her lying on behalf of Loras as her crime. I'm curious as to how she gets out of the situation, and to see what forces Lancel to out Cersei to turn the tides.

Basically agree. What they did with Arya was fantastic, I thought.

Watching the Margaery/Cersei storyline play out is great -- although when I read the books I was never sure if most of Margaery's sins weren't all just in Cersei's head; that's kind of the beauty of the way that storyline is written. I guess the show wanted to make things more concrete. I'm not sure I love that because you lose some of Cersei's paranoia and borderline-panic, but I still think it works fine

What they are doing with Sansa ... I guess it makes sense in some ways but it doesn't sit right with me. It makes sense from a character perspective, as it continues the pattern of her being married off to people affiliated with those who killed her family and having to show courage despite the horribleness of the situation, but it seemed like going too far to have the marriage to Ramsey consummated. But then again, I guess they are just following the Jeyne Poole storyline.

 

[Emcee77]

I think the feel of Cersei versus Margaery is spoiled in the show. Margaery's skill has always been playing the game of thrones without ever actually appearing to do so. By having her lie to the Faith about a sin that everyone knows to be true, she's falling into bumbling Cersei's ineptitude.

Yeah, that's nicely put.

I think it still fulfills the basic purpose of setting up Cersei's downfall. But I agree, not as cleverly done as in the books.

 

[Corry]

I couldn't watch the part with Sansa. I had the whole thing in fast forward. Was there any dialogue that was pertinent?

 

[IrishinTN]

I couldn't watch the part with Sansa. I had the whole thing in fast forward. Was there any dialogue that was pertinent?

Not a bit. Only trying to insinuate that it is pushing reek to action. I hated that part so bad I, in fact hated the Tyrell/Lannister and Sansa/Ramsey parts so I much I wanted to punch my computer.

First, to have the head of House Tyrrell riding her carriage with four guards is ludicrous. Then to have her appear outwitted and bumbling against Cersei...against Cersie? Please.

And then to even allow Ramsey to lay a hand on a Stark woman??? What are these producers doing? Too pissed off about parts of that episode to enjoy it as a whole and now questioning where they are even taking it moving forward.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I was disappointed with how the show depicted the visuals of Valyria... not so with the Many-Faced chamber. I was amazed with the idea they came up with.

I don't remember the description from the books, but I know that is NOT what I visualized in my head, and I'm glad I was wrong haha. Massive columns, one after another, all seemingly with a tiny alter to each face... very cool. Arya learning to lie as Jaqen looked on was a fantastic scene.

The House of Black and White is about the only aspect of this season that I've enjoyed so far.

The Sansa-Ramsey storyline hasn't bothered me, but the end of that episode was uncomfortable. I'm very curious as to who convinces Reek to help rescue Sansa... will Mance be brought back in a shocker, or will it simply be those that remain loyal in the North?

The Greatjon will appear in this season. General consensus seems to be that he'll end up giving Manderly's "The North remembers" speech, and then Sansa or Theon will be involved with plotting against the Boltons from within Winterfell.

Did anyone else hate the absurd coincidence of having Jaime and Bronn stumble upon Myrcella right as the Sand Snakes try to abduct her? That's the sort of lazy cliched writing you'd never find in a GRRM novel.

 

[Emcee77]

Did anyone else hate the absurd coincidence of having Jaime and Bronn stumble upon Myrcella right as the Sand Snakes try to abduct her? That's the sort of lazy cliched writing you'd never find in a GRRM novel.

Oh, God, yes, I meant to say so in my post above. I HATE what they are doing with the Dorne storyline. The Sand Snakes were fascinating characters in the books who are reduced to sketchy cartoon outlines in the show. I know there just isn't time to fit into the show everything that is in the books, but based on what we've seen so far, I would rather Benioff and Weiss just left the Sand Snakes out. Last night's scene was utterly ridiculous.

 

[IrishinTN]

Oh, God, yes, I meant to say so in my post above. I HATE what they are doing with the Dorne storyline. The Sand Snakes were fascinating characters in the books who are reduced to sketchy cartoon outlines in the show. I know there just isn't time to fit into the show everything that is in the books, but based on what we've seen so far, I would rather Benioff and Weiss just left the Sand Snakes out. Last night's scene was utterly ridiculous.

Another family of strength these producers are utterly ruining. I am with Whisky in hating most of these season, and having that hate get progressively worse every episode. I am still jaded by having them allow Ramsey to even touch Sansa. That part bothers me more than the red wedding.