? for alumni on the value of a degree from ND

[dales5050]

We all know the value of a degree from ND but is that value absolute?

Take for example your average Jane/Joe student. With that degree you know to some level what you're getting. They are going to be some of the best and brightest before they enter ND and will have matriculated at one of the best Universities in the world.

However, when it comes to an athlete, is this really the case?

Take a hypothetical of a football player named Evan Goldberg. Evan has his degree but it's public knowledge that he was not the best student and had some issues that resulted in a suspension from the school. While Evan did return to finish his studies, he also left the school on not the best terms after graduating to the perception of some alumni.

Does the degree that Evan has hold up to the same value that's being 'sold' to a kid in high school considering ND?

Obviously some players are helped in finding employment based on the notoriety of being a player. But what if, in this hypothetical for Evan, he were to go to a school that beat out ND for a playoff spot the last year of his eligibility. Would his public journey hurt him? Would the alumni network turn its back on Evan or would it value his time with the school and his degree?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Whiskey...party of one, your thread is ready...

 

[MNIrishman]

I think athletes have tremendous job market advantages before and after leaving. Elmer has some sort of capital hill thing right now---I don't recall those being easy to come by, let alone for a nonstandard summer like he has. I also know Tommy Rees got a job as soon as he wanted one.

 

[dales5050]

I think athletes have tremendous job market advantages before and after leaving. Elmer has some sort of capital hill thing right now---I don't recall those being easy to come by, let alone for a nonstandard summer like he has. I also know Tommy Rees got a job as soon as he wanted one.

I get that. But Elmer is a current player and a upstanding student/athlete/representative of ND. Tommy gave his heart and soul to the program. Also from what I have read both were very good students in their own right outside of football.

I'm talking about a hypothetical of a player who, while on the same spectrum as Reese in having a ND degree, is at the very opposite end of that spectrum.

 

[Emcee77]

I get that. But Elmer is a current player and a upstanding student/athlete/representative of ND. Tommy gave his heart and soul to the program. Also from what I have read both were very good students in their own right outside of football.

I'm talking about a hypothetical of a player who, while on the same spectrum as Reese in having a ND degree, is at the very opposite end of that spectrum.

In that case, I'm not sure your question has much to do with ND. A person who is known to have personal conduct issues in his past may face hard questions about those issues from employers, sure, no matter where he went to school.

When we talk about the value of an ND degree, I tend to think we are talking about a probability. It's not like a get-a-job-free card or a magic talisman warding off career reversals or anything like that.

Now, if your question is whether the fact that a student was an athlete who was known to struggle in school hurts him in the job market, I would just say it depends on the job.

First of all, I don't think athletes are likely to be much different from regular students in this respect; don't most job applicants put their GPAs on their resume, and aren't many asked to submit transcripts? (Certainly for law jobs, that's common.) An employer is going to know if an applicant struggled in school, regardless.

But in any case, I think a lot of employers are mainly looking for talented, dynamic people with strong personalities. And when you get an ND grad, you are getting someone who you know has spent some formative years in a particular environment, and you may like what that environment generally does to people. So, assuming this isn't a job that requires skills that correspond exactly to the skills a student needs in the classroom (few jobs are), the fact that an applicant is a ND football player may outweigh the fact that he was a weak student.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Perhaps you could explain the reason for this question? What purpose does it serve? Why is it so thinly veiled?

 

[wizards8507]

Whether your hypothetical student is a varsity athlete or not, someone with a poor GPA and likely poor interview skills won't be very successful in their job search, whether they went to ND, Harvard, or Grand Valley State.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Evan Goldman.... Everett Golson.... what's the motivation here? The question as phrased is OBVIOUSLY unanswerable in any general terms, as the situations of individuals are unique, and any real world employer or whomever would take the person's unique journey into account.

This whole thing is a bit creepy since Everett seems "targeted" here for commentary.


.... almost like a fishing expedition to find ammo against the powerful ROI argument that ND has in recruiting.

 

[ND-North]

We all know the value of a degree from ND but is that value absolute?

Take for example your average Jane/Joe student. With that degree you know to some level what you're getting. They are going to be some of the best and brightest before they enter ND and will have matriculated at one of the best Universities in the world.

However, when it comes to an athlete, is this really the case?

Take a hypothetical of a football player named Evan Goldberg. Evan has his degree but it's public knowledge that he was not the best student and had some issues that resulted in a suspension from the school. While Evan did return to finish his studies, he also left the school on not the best terms after graduating to the perception of some alumni.

Does the degree that Evan has hold up to the same value that's being 'sold' to a kid in high school considering ND?

Obviously some players are helped in finding employment based on the notoriety of being a player. But what if, in this hypothetical for Evan, he were to go to a school that beat out ND for a playoff spot the last year of his eligibility. Would his public journey hurt him? Would the alumni network turn its back on Evan or would it value his time with the school and his degree?

Haha I doubt an employer is going to care whether this "hypothetical" player played his last year of college football and if he doesn't hire this "individual" based on ND's inability to make the playoffs then I doubt his business venture will be very successful

 

[dales5050]

Perhaps you could explain the reason for this question? What purpose does it serve? Why is it so thinly veiled?

Was just curious after reading all of the back and forth regarding the qualifications of student athletes compared to just students, as well as, how alumni viewed the 'ND diploma'....

I did not use a 'specific player' because I wanted a general understanding but felt I needed to provide some relatable context to the question.

Also, I have been introduced to several ND alumni in San Diego through friends. Most of which were doing great things but one in particular was an office manager for a co-working space. They could have come from money and simply spending a couple of years post school in a carefree job..I know I would if I could, but it still made me think of the comments where ND set you up for life...40 year decision....

Mostly just curious is all.

 

[dales5050]

.... almost like a fishing expedition to find ammo against the powerful ROI argument that ND has in recruiting.

This is not the case at all. Sorry if you read it that way.

 

[wizards8507]

Also, I have been introduced to several ND alumni in San Diego through friends. Most of which were doing great things but one in particular was an office manager for a co-working space. They could have come from money and simply spending a couple of years post school in a carefree job..I know I would if I could, but it still made me think of the comments where ND set you up for life...40 year decision....

Getting into ND is not what sets you up for life. Succeeding at ND is.

I think what you're getting at is this: If you're an idiot, screw around in school, learn nothing, major in nothing, and put no effort into your academics... then no, there's not much value in your ND degree.

The 40 year decision is about how difficult it is for a Notre Dame student athlete to screw around, learn nothing, and put no effort into their academics. Notre Dame sets you up for success but even the finest ship in the world will sink if you drill holes in the bottom.

 

[IrishLion]

I think you may also be undervaluing the fact that your "hypothetical" student with issues was not only re-admitted to ND, but still graduated on schedule and seemingly in good standing.

And really, when considering Tommy Rees, there is also another side to this: Hypothetical student overcame an academic transgression, whereas Rees ran afoul of the law. Those things may be looked at in different lights employer-to-employer.

 

[dales5050]

Haha I doubt an employer is going to care whether this "hypothetical" player played his last year of college football and if he doesn't hire this "individual" based on ND's inability to make the playoffs then I doubt his business venture will be very successful

Slow day at work for me......

First let me say that I agree 100% in the value of ND. Part of the reason I am a fan of ND is how they view the student athlete. I am not trying to prove this value does not exist.

What I am curious about is what the value really is for the powerful alumni network. Is it the diploma or the association to the school? A mix of both?

We all know that if you star for ND on the football field...you're a household name. Take for example Golden Tate. He's one of my favorite players in the last 20 years. He does not hold a diploma but IMHO was and is a great member of the ND family.

So say Golden Tate gets out of football and gets licenses as a personal wealth advisor. I would assume that the red carpet would be rolled out for him in the network. If this is the case, simply attending ND in good standing has value. Right? I think it's safe to say that Tate would get a leg up in interviews from the alumni network...as he should. This benefit is part of the attraction for people who look at things over the long term.

The picture I was trying to paint, and maybe used a poor hypothetical, is someone who left the alumni with a poor taste in their mouth but did get a degree. Not every player is liked...and that's OK. But would the alumni network roll out the red carpet to the same degree in this case?

 

[dales5050]

Getting into ND is not what sets you up for life. Succeeding at ND is.

I think what you're getting at is this: If you're an idiot, screw around in school, learn nothing, major in nothing, and put no effort into your academics... then no, there's not much value in your ND degree.

The 40 year decision is about how difficult it is for a Notre Dame student athlete to screw around, learn nothing, and put no effort into their academics. Notre Dame sets you up for success but even the finest ship in the world will sink if you drill holes in the bottom.

Thanks.

This is the answer I was looking for but honestly did not expect the valuation on one end of the spectrum to be so low.

My outsiders take is even screwing around by ND standards but doing enough to graduate is still more valuable than a degree from 80% of the schools out there.

 

[dales5050]

And really, when considering Tommy Rees, there is also another side to this: Hypothetical student overcame an academic transgression, whereas Rees ran afoul of the law. Those things may be looked at in different lights employer-to-employer.

Honestly, I forgot that Rees even got into trouble. Was always a fan of his.

 

[tussin]

I think you may also be undervaluing the fact that your "hypothetical" student with issues was not only re-admitted to ND, but still graduated on schedule and seemingly in good standing.

And really, when considering Tommy Rees, there is also another side to this: Hypothetical student overcame an academic transgression, whereas Rees ran afoul of the law. Those things may be looked at in different lights employer-to-employer.

An academic issue will be looked at more harshly, especially if it caused you to not graduate on time.

On the other hand, most private employers will not put much weight on some stupid incident like when Rees ran away from the cops. Tons of kids get underages in college, I'd imagine that the large majority of non-government employers don't inquire about minor offenses or even care to know.

I would know, I got two underages at school and have had a pretty successful start to my career in finance. It never came up in an interview or background check.

 

[wizards8507]

Thanks.

This is the answer I was looking for but honestly did not expect the valuation on one end of the spectrum to be so low.

My outsiders take is even screwing around by ND standards but doing enough to graduate is still more valuable than a degree from 80% of the schools out there.

In the job market, a lot of computer systems will filter out a GPA below a certain level before your resume even makes it to the recruiter's desk, let alone the hiring manager.

 

[Emcee77]

What I am curious about is what the value really is for the powerful alumni network. Is it the diploma or the association to the school? A mix of both?

...

The picture I was trying to paint, and maybe used a poor hypothetical, is someone who left the alumni with a poor taste in their mouth but did get a degree. Not every player is liked...and that's OK. But would the alumni network roll out the red carpet to the same degree in this case?

Well, the alumni network does much more than work for you in the sort of anonymous way you describe. For me, the real value of the alumni network is the ability to make connections with people at a time when they can't help you, which then come in handy at a time when they can help you.

Of course, you will have the situation where an employer who went to ND will look at an applicant's resume and say, "oh! he went to ND. I want him, because I went to ND too." But any prestigious school has that, and, as many other people have posted, the fact that a person went to ND isn't likely to outweigh glaring red flags.

But what makes ND special is how ND people hang together, and the alumni network really starts paying dividends after you've been out of school for a few years. At that point, you have social connections with people who can really help you in your career when you need it, at least if you go into a career that many ND people choose such as law or medicine and likely many others, and it really gives you a leg up. I know I've given thanks for it many times over the last few years.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that when I think of the ND alumni network, I don't think of connections based only on the fact that two people both went to ND. I think of connections based on the fact that two people went to ND, and that allowed them to make some other connection, which was of use to one of them at some point. For example, they had a common friend because person 1 was a psych major who had classes with person 2's buddy from the dorm, and then 5 years after graduation person 1 and person 2 discover their shared connection at a networking event or at a friend's kid's baptism or whatever, and then a year after that person 1 needs person 2 to pass his resume along because he is trying to get a job at person 2's company, and person 2 personally knows the hiring professional and recommends person 1 enthusiastically, and person 1 gets the job.

That's how it tends to work, at least for me. And when it comes to those kind of connections, it may not matter that much that person 1 struggled a little bit in school.

 

[Rack Em]

Well, the alumni network does much more than work for you in the sort of anonymous way you describe. For me, the real value of the alumni network is the ability to make connections with people at a time when they can't help you, which then come in handy at a time when they can help you.

Of course, you will have the situation where an employer who went to ND will look at an applicant's resume and say, "oh! he went to ND. I want him, because I went to ND too." But any prestigious school has that, and, as many other people have posted, the fact that a person went to ND isn't likely to outweigh glaring red flags.

But what makes ND special is how ND people hang together, and the alumni network really starts paying dividends after you've been out of school for a few years. At that point, you have social connections with people who can really help you in your career when you need it, at least if you go into a career that many ND people choose such as law or medicine and likely many others, and it really gives you a leg up. I know I've given thanks for it many times over the last few years.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that when I think of the ND alumni network, I don't think of connections based only on the fact that two people both went to ND. I think of connections based on the fact that two people went to ND, and that allowed them to make some other connection, which was of use to one of them at some point. For example, they had a common friend because person 1 was a psych major who had classes with person 2's buddy from the dorm, and then 5 years after graduation person 1 and person 2 discover their shared connection at a networking event or at a friend's kid's baptism or whatever, and then a year after that person 1 needs person 2 to pass his resume along because he is trying to get a job at person 2's company, and person 2 personally knows the hiring professional and recommends person 1 enthusiastically, and person 1 gets the job.

That's how it tends to work, at least for me. And when it comes to those kind of connections, it may not matter that much that person 1 struggled a little bit in school.

I'll chime in and say that lots of people have some "connection" to ND although not being a graduate. "Oh my dad went to ND" or "I grew up an ND football fan" come up a lot in conversations. Those are easy ways of making that "connection" with another professional, who could help you out later on.

 

[Black Irish]

Some of our best posters are ND grads. ROI for days. End thread.

 

[edgesofsanity]

Some of our best posters are ND grads. ROI for days. End thread.

Some ND grads make the best posters:

 

[Old Man Mike]

Well, if the question was indeed serious then OK I'll say what Notre Dame did for me. Simply by surviving the ND chemistry curriculum {I was mediocre-in-the mid-low pack}, my ability to get into graduate school was assured --- maybe not at a powerhouse, but both Iowa State and Ohio State said yes { I'd applied to six schools}. My "success" was not due to the alumni network but because of Notre Dame's undergraduate reputation. EVERY chem graduate down to the last man got into grad school with the one exception of a ROTC guy who wanted to go into the service. Though not applicable to all ND programs {maybe}, the reputation of the quality of the program was in high repute nationally "in the establishment".

 

[IrishLax]

Getting into ND is not what sets you up for life. Succeeding at ND is.

I think what you're getting at is this: If you're an idiot, screw around in school, learn nothing, major in nothing, and put no effort into your academics... then no, there's not much value in your ND degree.

The 40 year decision is about how difficult it is for a Notre Dame student athlete to screw around, learn nothing, and put no effort into their academics. Notre Dame sets you up for success but even the finest ship in the world will sink if you drill holes in the bottom.

This really nails it.

For example, just getting into ND doesn't get you into med school... but applying yourself in one of the science majors means you're going to have a very good chance of getting in somewhere, as ND has terrific acceptance rates out of those programs for people who do decent.

For a football example, look at Sean Cwynar. I think he's about as "standard" a person you can come up with... good player, not a superstar, injuries precluded him from the NFL. But he got himself a really good job at IBM straight out of school in a HORRIBLE economy because he applied himself in a valuable major.

The piece of paper from ND isn't a golden ticket to automatic unlimited success. But someone who applies themselves and then attempts to take advantage of the alumni network is going to find a lot of doors open for them.

I'll try to dig up a story in ab it on the yearly networking and trips that the lacrosse team does... but in short, it's virtually unparalleled. And that's just the opportunities afforded to players of a sport virtually no one cares about.