A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[IrishinTN]

HBOGo. Perhaps that's why I don't get previews anymore.

If that is how Benioff and Weis decided to kill the greatest knight in Westeros, my hatred for last night's episode increases.

I didn't see the preview either. Now I am also agitated about that.

 

[Corry]

Book Barristan was a bad ass. I'm so piss the show killed him off. "Then Come"

Khrazz laughed. “Old man. I will eat your heart.” The two men were of a height, but Khrazz was two stone heavier and forty years younger, with pale skin, dead eyes, and a crest of bristly red-black hair that ran from his brow to the base of his neck.
“Then come,” said Barristan the Bold. Khrazz came.
For the first time all day, Selmy felt certain. This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.
The pit fighter was fast, blazing fast, as quick as any man Ser Barristan had ever fought. In those big hands, the arakh became a whistling blur, a steel storm that seemed to come at the old knight from three directions at once. Most of the cuts were aimed at his head. Khrazz was no fool. Without a helm, Selmy was most vulnerable above the neck.
He blocked the blows calmly, his longsword meeting each slash and turning it aside. The blades rang and rang again. Ser Barristan retreated. On the edge of his vision, he saw the cupbearers watching with eyes as big and white as chicken eggs. Khrazz cursed and turned a high cut into a low one, slipping past the old knight’s blade for once, only to have his blow scrape uselessly off a white steel greave. Selmy’s answering slash found the pit fighter’s left shoulder, parting the fine linen to bite the flesh beneath. His yellow tunic began to turn pink, then red.
“Only cowards dress in iron,” Khrazz declared, circling. No one wore armor in the fighting pits. It was blood the crowds came for: death, dismemberment, and shrieks of agony, the music of the scarlet sands.
Ser Barristan turned with him. “This coward is about to kill you, ser.” The man was no knight, but his courage had earned him that much courtesy. Khrazz did not know how to fight a man in armor. Ser Barristan could see it in his eyes: doubt, confusion, the beginnings of fear. The pit fighter came on again, screaming this time, as if sound could slay his foe where steel could not. The arakh slashed low, high, low again.
Selmy blocked the cuts at his head and let his armor stop the rest, whilst his own blade opened the pit fighter’s cheek from ear to mouth, then traced a raw red gash across his chest. Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder. He seized the brazier with his off hand and flipped it, scattering embers and hot coals at Selmy’s feet. Ser Barristan leapt over them. Khrazz slashed at his arm and caught him, but the arakh could only chip the hard enamel before it met the steel below.
“In the pit that would have taken your arm off, old man.”
“We are not in the pit.”
“Take off that armor!”
“It is not too late to throw down your steel. Yield.”
“Die,” spat Khrazz ... but as he lifted his arakh, its tip grazed one of the wall hangings and hung. That was all the chance Ser Barristan required. He slashed open the pit fighter’s belly, parried the arakh as it wrenched free, then finished Khrazz with a quick thrust to the heart as the pit fighter’s entrails came sliding out like a nest of greasy eels.
Blood and viscera stained the king’s silk carpets. Selmy took a step back. The longsword in his hand was red for half its length. Here and there the carpets had begun to smolder where some of the scattered coals had fallen. He could hear poor Qezza sobbing. “Don’t be afraid,” the old knight said. “I mean you no harm, child. I want only the king.”
He wiped his sword clean on a curtain and stalked into the bedchamber, where he found Hizdahr zo Loraq, Fourteenth of His Noble Name, hiding behind a tapestry and whimpering. “Spare me,” he begged. “I do not want to die.”
“Few do. Yet all men die, regardless.” Ser Barristan sheathed his sword and pulled Hizdahr to his feet. “Come. I will escort you to a cell.” By now, the Brazen Beasts should have disarmed Steelskin. “You will be kept a prisoner until the queen returns. If nothing can be proved against you, you will not come to harm. You have my word as a knight.” He took the king’s arm and led him from the bedchamber, feeling strangely light-headed, almost drunk. I was a Kingsguard. What am I now?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Book Barristan was a bad ass. I'm so piss the show killed him off. "Then Come"

Through the first several seasons, I was willing to give Benioff and Weis the benefit of the doubt regarding their changes to Martin's canon. Most seemed necessary, and I even thought a few changes improved upon the source material.

But this season is quickly killing my enthusiasm for the show. I may stop watching entirely if they start spoiling major plot points from TWoW.

 

[greyhammer90]

Through the first several seasons, I was willing to give Benioff and Weis the benefit of the doubt regarding their changes to Martin's canon. Most seemed necessary, and I even thought a few changes improved upon the source material.

But this season is quickly killing my enthusiasm for the show. I may stop watching entirely if they start spoiling major plot points from TWoW.

I've found that it's best to think of the book universe as being wholly different from the show universe. They have similarities and many people exist in both, but they are separate and distinct. I never assume any character motivation/plot point will be the same in either unless it has been confirmed by my seeing it in both versions.

 

[Emcee77]

I've found that it's best to think of the book universe as being wholly different from the show universe. They have similarities and many people exist in both, but they are separate and distinct. I never assume any character motivation/plot point will be the same in either unless it has been confirmed by my seeing it in both versions.

Yeah, the way this season is going, it is really the only way to look at it. The show is inspired by the books at this point, not really based on them.

I admit it's a little frustrating because I keep getting the books and the show mixed up. It's been almost 4 years since I read the books, so this season I keep asking myself, wait, did that happen? Or is that new? Then I end up on A Wiki of Ice and Fire to refresh my memory. It's a little annoying. But the differences are also cool precisely BECAUSE they provide that opportunity, the opportunity to sort of critically revisit something from the books and view it in a new light.

 

[wizards8507]

Through the first several seasons, I was willing to give Benioff and Weis the benefit of the doubt regarding their changes to Martin's canon. Most seemed necessary, and I even thought a few changes improved upon the source material.

But this season is quickly killing my enthusiasm for the show. I may stop watching entirely if they start spoiling major plot points from TWoW.

I've found that it's best to think of the book universe as being wholly different from the show universe. They have similarities and many people exist in both, but they are separate and distinct. I never assume any character motivation/plot point will be the same in either unless it has been confirmed by my seeing it in both versions.

Yeah, the way this season is going, it is really the only way to look at it. The show is inspired by the books at this point, not really based on them.

I admit it's a little frustrating because I keep getting the books and the show mixed up. It's been almost 4 years since I read the books, so this season I keep asking myself, wait, did that happen? Or is that new? Then I end up on A Wiki of Ice and Fire to refresh my memory. It's a little annoying. But the differences are also cool precisely BECAUSE they provide that opportunity, the opportunity to sort of critically revisit something from the books and view it in a new light.

But to Whiskey's point, they're not wholly different and distinct. The HBO guys and GRRM have confirmed several times that both the show and the books will have the same endgame. Part of the fun of the book series (IMO) is piecing together fan theories about what exactly that endgame will be. Thus, if the TV show omits a plotline or kills a character, we can deduce that said plotline or character is not relevant to the endgame in the show and, by extension, the book series.

 

[greyhammer90]

But to Whiskey's point, they're not wholly different and distinct. The HBO guys and GRRM have confirmed several times that both the show and the books will have the same endgame. Part of the fun of the book series (IMO) is piecing together fan theories about what exactly that endgame will be. Thus, if the TV show omits a plotline or kills a character, we can deduce that said plotline or character is not relevant to the endgame in the show and, by extension, the book series.

I guess it depends on how you feel what's important in the story, the journey or the destination. This book series has been around since I was 6, and as popular as it's been, I have little doubt that at least ONE of the major fan theories are correct. There's been too much time, and too many people have made guesses. It's almost a certainty that all satisfying endings have already been thought of as "what if" scenarios.

From that perspective, I've been as "spoiled" as possible. I've likely already read the ending to GOT, it's just been on a message board instead of in the books. So for me, the endgame isn't so important. It's more about how we get there and how I feel about the characters, which has been extremely different thus far between the show and the books.

I'm not saying my perspective is right of course, but that's how I think about it.

 

[greyhammer90]

This is a very well written review of last week's episode:

‘Game of Thrones’ Season 5, Episode 4 Recap: ‘Sons of the Harpy’ «

 

[Emcee77]

I guess it depends on how you feel what's important in the story, the journey or the destination. This book series has been around since I was 6, and as popular as it's been, I have little doubt that at least ONE of the major fan theories are correct. There's been too much time, and too many people have made guesses. It's almost a certainty that all satisfying endings have already been thought of as "what if" scenarios.

From that perspective, I've been as "spoiled" as possible. I've likely already read the ending to GOT, it's just been on a message board instead of in the books. So for me, the endgame isn't so important. It's more about how we get there and how I feel about the characters, which has been extremely different thus far between the show and the books.

I'm not saying my perspective is right of course, but that's how I think about it.

Right, this is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I don't really feel like anything can be "spoiled" for me. What's coming is likely one of various possibilities I've already read about and considered, and it doesn't much matter to me which way GRRM ends up going. But like greyhammer said, it just depends on how you look at it and what you think is important. As I've written previously, the plot just isn't that important to me; the world-building, the process of setting the plot in motion, is the part that I like, and that part is basically done.

But to Whiskey's point, they're not wholly different and distinct. The HBO guys and GRRM have confirmed several times that both the show and the books will have the same endgame. Part of the fun of the book series (IMO) is piecing together fan theories about what exactly that endgame will be. Thus, if the TV show omits a plotline or kills a character, we can deduce that said plotline or character is not relevant to the endgame in the show and, by extension, the book series.

I don't necessarily agree with the bolded. What you say may be true of some plotlines and characters, but in general what the TV show is doing is condensing and consolidating the material in the book so the universe consists of fewer characters and settings, just for logistical reasons that don't apply to the books. But what the show producers sometimes do is cut out a character or a plotline, but reproduce it with different characters in a different setting. If the show kills off a character, it doesn't mean he won't do anything important; it just means that another character will do whatever important thing that character might do in the books.

 

[wizards8507]

Just getting around to the latest episode. This is horseshit. Perverting the faith militant into a political message clearly stating "Christians hate gays."

I might quit the show entirely. I can't keep track of all the differences and I think I'd rather just enjoy The Winds of Winter.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLax]

Finally caught up on the show. The episodes are some bullshit... "hey, so let's totally add in this completely unnecessary part about how Christians hate gays and are the devil instead of sticking with the book's vision of these people and the high sparrow."

Can't believe they killed Barristan in such a pointless way. To some of the above posts... 6v20 surrounded in close quarters would lose (spears are by far the worst weapon for that kind of combat) because you can just rush and overwhelm them.

Honestly think I might stop watching the show. So dumb. I think if they kill off Bronn for no reason that'll be it for me.

 

[IrishLion]

I hate that they're crushing theory-after-theory, and that they've made the Unsullied look so soft, and that the militarization of the faith is so radical that it's outrageous, and that Margaery is already corrupting Tommen's puberty-addled brain....

But I don't think I can quit watching. I'm not strong enough haha.

 

[wizards8507]

Serious question: why was Selmy included in the show at all? I was talking about it with my (show-only) wife and she asked me something along the lines of "why is everybody on Facebook so upset that they killed the old guy?" Did he serve any purpose?

It's really a shame because his arc is one of the most beautiful in the books. The noblest of Westerosi knights (perhaps the one "true knight" in the series) forced to use methods he despises in order to preserve the ideals he espouses. From the white cloak of the kingsguard to the shadows of Meereen.

 

[IrishLion]

He was simply a tool to teach Daenerys a little about her family, I think.

That was emphasized by the story he told her about Rhaegar just before his demise.

 

[wizards8507]

He was simply a tool to teach Daenerys a little about her family, I think.

Do show-only people care about her family? I don't think R + L = J carries much impact in show-world because nobody knows who R and L are. Besides, Jorah Mormont could have carried that torch earlier in the show or Tyrion in the future.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

 

[IrishLion]

Do show-only people care about her family? I don't think R + L = J carries much impact in show-world because nobody knows who R and L are. Besides, Jorah Mormont could have carried that torch earlier in the show or Tyrion in the future.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

I don't know if that's necessarily true about Jorah... that quote seemed to be a generality based on what he had heard about Rhaegar, whereas Selmy actually KNEW the family. Tyrion could relay things, but again, not from the perspective of intimate knowledge that Selmy had.

I think Selmy and his "intimate" knowledge of the family were important tools used to try and make sure that show-watchers continue to (sort of) sympathize with Daenerys.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't know if that's necessarily true about Jorah... that quote seemed to be a generality based on what he had heard about Rhaegar, whereas Selmy actually KNEW the family. Tyrion could relay things, but again, not from the perspective of intimate knowledge that Selmy had.

I think Selmy and his "intimate" knowledge of the family were important tools used to try and make sure that show-watchers continue to (sort of) sympathize with Daenerys.

They could have made Jorah a kingsguard. Stupid? Yes. But is it worse than common whore Melissandre, teenie bopper Tommen, Nazi sparrows, bitch unsullied, or bumbling Littlefinger?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLion]

They could have made Jorah a kingsguard. Stupid? Yes. But is it worse than common whore Melissandre, teenie bopper Tommen, Nazi sparrows, bitch unsullied, or bumbling Littlefinger?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

I agree that it would be a drop in the pond, but I think there is also something to be said for Selmy being the "honorable" voice among Dany's contingent. Mormont wouldn't be able to fit all of the roles that they need to surround her with for both show and character-building reasons.

 

[IrishLax]

Here's my questions...
-Are Tyrion and Mormont still going to get enslaved? I'm guessing yes because of the time they spent talking about the cheek tattoos.
-Is Young Griff even going to exist? Or is that storyline getting abandoned?
-Are they still going to have Jon get stabbed?
-Is all of the Ironborn stuff getting cut?
-Are Sansa and Ramsay actually going to get married? Or do we think Stannis shows up as everyone gathers in Winterfell for it?

 

[Emcee77]

Here's my questions...
-Are Tyrion and Mormont still going to get enslaved? I'm guessing yes because of the time they spent talking about the cheek tattoos.

I agree. I think they will get enslaved.

-Is Young Griff even going to exist? Or is that storyline getting abandoned?

I think it's getting abandoned, which makes me sad, as I love Blackfyre stuff, but no way there is enough time to get into the whole Blackfyre thing.

-Are they still going to have Jon get stabbed?

I think so. I mean, if that's going to go the way some people think it's going to go, it's an indispensable plot point.

-Is all of the Ironborn stuff getting cut?

My guess is yes.

-Are Sansa and Ramsay actually going to get married? Or do we think Stannis shows up as everyone gathers in Winterfell for it?

I can't see them actually getting married, but I'm not sure whether Stannis will save her or something else.

 

[IrishLax]

I can't see them actually getting married, but I'm not sure whether Stannis will save her or something else.

I'm guessing Reek grab her at the last moment before the wedding and runs off with her to Stannis' camp similar to how the sequence plays out in the book.

 

[wizards8507]

I will say I'm glad they gave Stannis that moment with Shireen in the last episode. The show-only viewers had no reason to like him until that point but I suspect he may be winning the audience to his side somewhat. He already has his legion of book readers who support his claim (which should be all of us, as he's the trueborn king).

Though, I suspect that D&D's motivations were to simply provide some exposition about greyscale for when someone important catches it in the future.

 

[IrishLion]

I will say I'm glad they gave Stannis that moment with Shireen in the last episode. The show-only viewers had no reason to like him until that point but I suspect he may be winning the audience to his side somewhat. He already has his legion of book readers who support his claim (which should be all of us, as he's the trueborn king).

Though, I suspect that D&D's motivations were to simply provide some exposition about greyscale for when someone important catches it in the future.

That may support the idea that Tyrion will in fact travel with the Secret Targ at some point, no? Unless they throw the stone men into the story in some random fashion.

 

[wizards8507]

That may support the idea that Tyrion will in fact travel with the Secret Targ at some point, no? Unless they throw the stone men into the story in some random fashion.

Unless Tyrion himself really does contract it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I will say I'm glad they gave Stannis that moment with Shireen in the last episode. The show-only viewers had no reason to like him until that point but I suspect he may be winning the audience to his side somewhat. He already has his legion of book readers who support his claim (which should be all of us, as he's the trueborn king).

#TeamMannis

 

[ND NYC]

looks like Littefingers recollection of the Harrenhall Tourney in the crypts with sansa has set the stage for the R+L=J storyline to be used in the show.

is there any doubt at this point that R+L definitely equals J?

 

[Emcee77]

looks like Littefingers recollection of the Harrenhall Tourney in the crypts with sansa has set the stage for the R+L=J storyline to be used in the show.

is there any doubt at this point that R+L definitely equals J?

No. At least I have none.

 

[IrishLion]

It's pretty much confirmed, minus GRRM explicitly saying, "Yes, Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire."

My question is: what do you all think that means for the end of the story?

 

[Emcee77]

It's pretty much confirmed, minus GRRM explicitly saying, "Yes, Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire."

My question is: what do you all think that means for the end of the story?

Honestly, I'm afraid to guess, because I know GRRM hears about stuff on message boards and at least considers changing course just to keep his fans guessing.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My question is: what do you all think that means for the end of the story?

(1) Jon's not dead; and (2) he's going to be the most important character going forward. Anything beyond that gets pretty speculative.

This is tangentially related, but the one thing that I really enjoyed about the last episode is that they nodded to the two most popular fan theories for what "waking a dragon from stone" might mean:

• Selmy's last lines in the series involved Rhaegar's harp. If it's been hidden within Lyanna's tomb in the crypts of Winterfell, it could legitimize Jon as heir to the Targaryen throne, thereby waking a dragon from stone.
• Melisandre rebukes Selyse by reminding her that Shireen possesses king's blood. If the greyscale-afflicted girl is sacrificed to resurrect Jon, that would also fulfill the prophecy by waking a dragon from stone.