A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

Emcee77

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A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)



Interesting. Honestly, I think this may just mean that the ending will be basically the one we expect (R+L=J, etc.) or else GRRM wouldn't have revealed to the show runners where he was going with it all in the first place. Not sure we really have to worry about big spoilers; we have already guessed a lot of big things.
 

IrishLion

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We essentially know that R+L=J, but we don't know what that leads to and/or how it impacts the actual end-game, do we?

If Jon is a Targ, does that mean he links up with Danaerys? Or does that mean he has to leave the Wall and vie for her hand against the Targ/Blackfyre upstart? Or does he ignore his heritage and stay on the Wall, foiling the whole "big impact" of R+L=J?
 

Emcee77

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A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

We essentially know that R+L=J, but we don't know what that leads to and/or how it impacts the actual end-game, do we?

If Jon is a Targ, does that mean he links up with Danaerys? Or does that mean he has to leave the Wall and vie for her hand against the Targ/Blackfyre upstart? Or does he ignore his heritage and stay on the Wall, foiling the whole "big impact" of R+L=J?


I guess my theory is that I feel like if GRRM felt like he had a huge surprise up his sleeve, he wouldn't have shared it with the people doing the show. So who cares who reveals the ending first.

Plot is typically one of the more boring aspects of a book because it is unoriginal. Martin's series itself is an example of that; the plot is rooted in history. It's not like he is making up the plot; he is repurposing and reimagining events that really happened, in many cases.

What I like about the series is the richly imagined world, not the plot. And Martin has confirmed that the world isn't getting any bigger, i.e. he won't be introducing any major new characters or storylines. What's left to do is just tie the storylines together and bring them to a logical conclusion, and that is not something I feel like I necessarily need to hear from Martin at this point, especially if the show runners already know basically how Martin is going to do it. I mean, I would like to read the ending before I see it, but I don't really care.
 

IrishLion

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Okay, so essentially you mean "spoilers" as in the history and world building, and not how the plot will be resolved.

In that, I can agree. GRRM has written too many clues and there has been so much time for analyzing that we know the "big one" in Jon's parentage.

I guess I'm just a sucker for the resolution, because there are so many directions in which Jon-as-Targ/Dany can go.

We know the story will end with what is essentially a wasteland of dead characters and crushed dreams as Spring finally approaches, but the clues we have gotten leave so much plot up for grabs. We know Jon's parentage, which is a HUGE Easter egg (but not really, now), but how that impacts the end intrigues me because of all the twists that could occur as a result.

Similarly, we know that Arya is not only a master assassin, but that she will go one step further with a massive wolf-pack at her disposal, but I'm intrigued at HOW that might be resolved in terms of the end game.

I would rather read these plot resolutions than see the show get to them first, but alas, Y U No write faster GRRM?
 

IrishLion

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Yup. They've reached peak tinfoil.

I would love for Ned to be creeping around the ruins of Winterfell, but it would just feel kind of hokey to me.
 

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IrishLion

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So, we can *hope* to have the book within the next year?

I can live with it.

No way he every finishes DoS though haha.
 

IrishLion

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Also intrigued by the plot twist that he's just now thinking of. I wonder if it's spawning legitimately from the way in which he writes, or if he's doing it to f*ck with the show-runners, and to make the source material much more of it's own thing now that the show is making it's own decisions that can't really be undone.

Give me all of the tinfoil guesses that haven't been thought of.
 
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Emcee77

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Also intrigued by the plot twist that he's just now thinking of. I wonder if it's spawning legitimately from the way in which he writes, or if he's doing it to f*ck with the show-runners, and to make the source material much more of it's own thing now that the show is making it's own decisions that can't really be undone.

Give me all of the tinfoil guesses that haven't been though of.

Yeah, this is what I can't help wondering, too.
 

IrishLion

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Yeah, this is what I can't help wondering, too.

It would not give me a super-high degree of confidence if he were changing the way he writes and makes decisions just to get away from what the show is doing.

I'm sure he's going to produce an epic conclusion to things either way, but how wacky will shit get if he decides he just wants to mess with the formula that he gave to the show?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's an article from 538's Walt Hickey titled "HBO Is Going to Run Out of GoT Source Material Soon":

Strap in, everyone, because the fifth season of HBO’s “Game of Thrones” — premiering Sunday — is going off book, and fast.

With 10 new episodes in Season 5 and no new books since July 2011, it’s time to take another look at how much source material the HBO showrunners have left to work with. Last year, about halfway through the show’s fourth season, I was struck by how fast the show was blowing through the book material (George R.R. Martin has published five books and is still working on the final two books in the “A Song of Ice and Fire” series). While the show closely tracked with the novels for the first two seasons, the third and fourth seasons — which were ostensibly based on the third novel, the massive “A Storm of Swords” — drew material increasingly from anywhere they damn well pleased.

Attempts to get inside Martin’s head are dangerous and cocksure. But some are interpreting the release of completed chapters from the forthcoming sixth book, “The Winds of Winter,” as attempts by the author to stave off getting scooped by HBO on character arcs.

Martin uses a framing technique where chapters are told from the perspective of a single character. We can count up these point-of-view chapters, see how many have already been represented on-screen, and see how many are left. Doing this involved some judgment calls; for instance, while HBO has included in the show one element from the first Cersei Lannister chapter in “A Feast for Crows,” the rest of that chapter hasn’t been used yet. I counted that as an untapped chapter, but there are more borderline cases.

Spoilers for the novels are about to get heavy now.

Martin has now released or read at conventions 10 chapters from “The Winds of Winter” — one each from the point of view of Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Theon Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy and then two chapters each from Arianne Martell, Tyrion Lannister and Barristan Selmy. The most recent of these, a Sansa Stark chapter, doubles the amount of remaining source material available for that character.

Here’s the total number of chapters remaining for each point-of-view character.

[Click through to see the table]

That’s a pretty slim amount of source material remaining for a lot of fan-favorites, including Sansa, Bran and Arya Stark. The good news for fans is that Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran Stark, said the character is taking a season off. This will presumably buy time for the producers to figure out what the hell is going to happen with him. More good news: Some characters — Jaime Lannister in particular — are going on off-book adventures this season, leaving the next book unspoiled. And some — Cersei, Tyrion, Jon, Sam, and Daenerys — have lots of material to work from.

The bad news: The show will probably burn through the remaining Sansa and Arya chapters quickly this season (maybe Theon’s, too). Martin has told HBO how the series will end. So unless he’s able to crank out a book soon — and the best estimate we have of that says “probably not” — we’re likely to see a lot of spoilers.
 

Whiskeyjack

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A man wonders... what the Ironman of Braavos thought of last night's big reveal outside the House of Black and White?
 

IrishLion

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A man wonders... what the Ironman of Braavos thought of last night's big reveal outside the House of Black and White?

I thought that reveal had occured in the books?

A man also wonders if Jamie heading to Dorne is a storyline that's ahead of the books, or if a man has simply forgotten what he has read.

Also wondering the same about Brienne and Pod hightailing it after Littlefinger and his brainwashed minion.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I thought that reveal had occured in the books?

It has not occurred in the books. The general consensus is that Jaqen H'ghar is currently in Old Town, having assassinated the novice Pate and taken his place; which means that the Kindly Old Man tutoring Arya in Braavos must be someone else.

A man also wonders if Jamie heading to Dorne is a storyline that's ahead of the books, or if a man has simply forgotten what he has read.

More likely he's just replacing Arys Oakheart as our Kingsguard POV in Dorne.

Also wondering the same about Brienne and Pod hightailing it after Littlefinger and his brainwashed minion.

Since they're all heading to Winterfell, things are definitely going to get weird.
 
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ND NYC

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feel like book readers are going start get confused (and upset) by the show. gonna be a lot of WTF moments.

anyone rad the book Jaws by Peter Benchley? hooper was banging ms brody so sonetimes the movie versions do make some sense :)
 

wizards8507

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feel like book readers are going start get confused (and upset) by the show. gonna be a lot of WTF moments.
That's me. I can't figure out what the hell they're getting at. It's about impossible to keep up with every detail of the book and every detail of the show when they're so wildly different now. I'm also kind of PO'ed at some of the minor spoilery things that we can deduce just from omission. Think Edric Storm might be important? NOPE! (F)Aegon? Unlikely. It's not like it's a completed series where everyone knows how it ends so they don't have to keep track of the details. It's an in progress series that people are trying to deduce and figure out how it ends.
 

IrishLion

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It has not occurred in the books. The general consensus is that Jaqen H'ghar is currently in Old Town, having assassinated the novice Pate and taken his place; which means that the Kindly Old Man tutoring Arya in Braavos must be someone else.

Ah yes, I forgot the clues from AFfC about the scars on Jaqen's face and whatnot in Old Town. That makes sense. It would be easy to move any key points from Old Town forward in a different way if needed. (We could even see Jaqen leave Braavos in the next episode, though unlikely since they brought him back into the story.)

More likely he's just replacing Arys Oakheart as our Kingsguard POV in Dorne.

This makes sense as well as one of the casting casualties. It will be interesting to see if he also gets the love story, and what will happen with the Myrcella > Tommen storyline, in that case.

I'm also kind of PO'ed at some of the minor spoilery things that we can deduce just from omission. Think Edric Storm might be important? NOPE! (F)Aegon? Unlikely.

Idk, I got kind of excited when Varys and Tyrion were talking in the carriage, and Varys mentioned that they were on their way to find a "ruler." I thought it might have been a clever way to foreshadow Aegon, while most viewers would have just brushed it off as meaning Dany.
 
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ND NYC

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how about that Varys? dude knows how to roll.
that was one tricked out carriage, was like the "Bugatti of the seven kingdoms"
 

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That's me. I can't figure out what the hell they're getting at. It's about impossible to keep up with every detail of the book and every detail of the show when they're so wildly different now. I'm also kind of PO'ed at some of the minor spoilery things that we can deduce just from omission. Think Edric Storm might be important? NOPE! (F)Aegon? Unlikely. It's not like it's a completed series where everyone knows how it ends so they don't have to keep track of the details. It's an in progress series that people are trying to deduce and figure out how it ends.

The people that matter know how it ends. Thats why they can take great latitude with where they go on the show. Some characters are of importance in the book but not to the end game of the story, thus the storylines are cut by shocking deaths or other means.
 

ND NYC

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The people that matter know how it ends. Thats why they can take great latitude with where they go on the show. Some characters are of importance in the book but not to the end game of the story, thus the storylines are cut by shocking deaths or other means.

I think the "angst" is that the book and hbo show may in fact "end" the same...but take very, very different roads to get there, creating all sorts of confusion for all that read the books.

keep in mind GRRM just said he thought of a major new plot/character twist that he hadn't thought of before, and I think he said he hasn't shared it with anyone IIRC.
 

Emcee77

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I think the "angst" is that the book and hbo show may in fact "end" the same...but take very, very different roads to get there, creating all sorts of confusion for all that read the books.

Right, I'm starting to see this. Up to now I've said that I don't really care if the books and show diverge or if the show reveals things the books haven't yet, but now that it's actually happening I do find it annoying to watch just because it makes the viewing experience more difficult; I keep confusing the show-story with the books-story and I have to stop and think to keep straight what happened in the show as opposed to what happened in the books. Certain changes may be necessary from a practical point of view but it's definitely a little annoying, I'll admit.
 

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I've been trying really hard to just look at them as two entirely separate entities. It's tough to do, but it has helped limit my annoyance when they change little things. I still think the one that gets me the most to this point is no Strong Belwas.
 

wizards8507

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So I was on vacation and just watched episode one. WHAT THE HELL THEY KILLED TKBTW!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 
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