ESPN sues Notre Dame over police records

BigIrish

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I'm not sure I agree with the view that ND campus police are some sort of private security firm for the university - they have arresting powers, uphold state and federal laws and place violators in the public court system, don't they? A private security firm would turn all matters over to an actual police force. I'm not sure one can make the argument that ND campus police is somehow not a police force, and I would be particularly interested to hear an ND cop's opinion on the matter. I suspect he or she wouldn't take kindly to being called a rent-a-cop, as they take their jobs pretty seriously.

That said, if it's true, as many have pointed out, that ND police does not have what we in Michigan would call a "mutual aid agreement" between jurisdictions, wherein campus police are sworn deputies for the surrounding community and may be requested for assistance in unusual/emergency situations, then I also can't see how their operation could be scrutinized under some "public agency" angle either.

My understanding is that a campus police force is similar to a volunteer fire department. Many of you are probably not aware that municipalities are not legally required to offer their own fire protection services. (There are still townships in Michigan who contract their fire and first responder services from neighboring municipalities.) The key issue, however, is that once your municipality chooses to provide a fire protection service, it must adhere to minimum guidelines for operation, training, equipment, etc., set forth by state and national governing bodies.

My understanding of a campus police force is that it is a similar concept. A college or university is not required to maintain it's own police force on campus. However, if it chooses to do so, it is obligated to meet minimum standards for operation, training, etc. You can't do it half way. You are either a police department or you are not. Now, how much you choose to collaborate with neighboring police agencies is largely up to local law and institutional preference. Central Michigan University's police force, for example, is deputized by both the city and county, and even recently became deputized to operate within the city of Saginaw, as the university now operates a medical school there within the city limits. You won't see CMU police cars patrolling outside of campus, but if called, they have full police authority and credentials within these other jurisdictions.
 
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phgreek

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I'm not sure I agree with the view that ND campus police are some sort of private security firm for the university - they have arresting powers, uphold state and federal laws and place violators in the public court system, don't they? A private security firm would turn all matters over to an actual police force. I'm not sure one can make the argument that ND campus police is somehow not a police force, and I would be particularly interested to hear an ND cop's opinion on the matter. I suspect he or she wouldn't take kindly to being called a rent-a-cop, as they take their jobs pretty seriously.

That said, if it's true, as many have pointed out, that ND police does not have what we in Michigan would call a "mutual aid agreement" between jurisdictions, wherein campus police are sworn deputies for the surrounding community and may be requested for assistance in unusual/emergency situations, then I also can't see how their operation could be scrutinized under some "public agency" angle either.

My understanding is that a campus police force is similar to a volunteer fire department. Many of you are probably not aware that municipalities are not legally required to offer their own fire protection services. (There are still townships in Michigan who contract their fire and first responder services from neighboring municipalities.) The key issue, however, is that once your municipality chooses to provide a fire protection service, it must adhere to minimum guidelines for operation, training, equipment, etc., set forth by state and national governing bodies.

My understanding of a campus police force is that it is a similar concept. A college or university is not required to maintain it's own police force on campus. However, if it chooses to do so, it is obligated to meet minimum standards for operation, training, etc. You can't do it half way. You are either a police department or you are not. Now, how much you choose to collaborate with neighboring police agencies is largely up to local law and institutional preference. Central Michigan University's police force, for example, is deputized by both the city and county, and even recently became deputized to operate within the city of Saginaw, as the university now operates a medical school there within the city limits. You won't see CMU police cars patrolling outside of campus, but if called, they have full police authority and credentials within these other jurisdictions.

JMHO here...

I think records requirements of PDs originate from who pays them, not their credentials or jurisdiction. If ND pays these guys as employees, and tax payers don't...I don't think they have any public records responsibility. I also think the other things you mention help establish the scope of the department which may further support no FOIA. If they stay on campus, are paid by ND...thats a long road to public access responsibility. Where they get their credentials from seems like thats just ND wanting a credible force...and that they can process people into the court system is an efficiency...but does not make them beholding to the community outside ND. Again...just what makes sense to me.
 

IrishLax

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JMHO here...

I think records requirements of PDs originate from who pays them, not their credentials or jurisdiction. If ND pays these guys as employees, and tax payers don't...I don't think they have any public records responsibility. I also think the other things you mention help establish the scope of the department which may further support no FOIA. If they stay on campus, are paid by ND...thats a long road to public access responsibility. Where they get their credentials from seems like thats just ND wanting a credible force...and that they can process people into the court system is an efficiency...but does not make them beholding to the community outside ND. Again...just what makes sense to me.

Yup. The fact that NDSP was created by, answers to, and is solely funded by Notre Dame is what the pertinent fact is here. That's why they've always been considered a private entity belonging to Notre Dame. Their entire chain of command -- like really any campus police force for a private college -- goes through the leadership of the university. You cannot separate them from ND, regardless of who gives them authority to operate or whose laws they enforce.
 

Grahambo

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Remove all the legal jargon, simply put, in order for the NDSP to operate as a law enforcement entity, meaning, do cop stuff, the state of Indiana has to GRANT them their authority but it does not mean they are a public department. The state of Indiana could revoke their authority if they so chose to as has happened to other police departments and its also why NDSP has to complete state mandated training. It doesn't matter if they assist other local, state, or even federal agencies.

For it to be easily determined, who pays the officers? If the town of South Bend pays them then ESPN has a leg, albeit a weak one, to stand on. If its ND then ESPN is shit out of luck. Even a crack nut judge would be hard pressed to go against the precedence that has been set. Not to mention ND would appeal the decision 100X over.

I'll also add that even though a local PD is authorized by a state to perform law enforcement duties, it does not mean they can go anywhere in the state and perform those duties without getting prior authorization from the jurisdiction that is not normally theirs. If you don't like it well, tough luck and pay them yourselves.

Even in federal law enforcement, it doesn't mean I can go to any state and start arresting people. Just doesn't work like that.
 

irishff1014

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I am not sure how the law there is. Both university police depts are state employees. To my knowledge the both have agreements to help the surrounding police agencies. And they more then welcome outside agenices.

I would assume that the NDSP has a charter of some kind that wil settle this
 

IrishLax

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I am not sure how the law there is. Both university police depts are state employees. To my knowledge the both have agreements to help the surrounding police agencies. And they more then welcome outside agenices.

I would assume that the NDSP has a charter of some kind that wil settle this

Hmm?
 

PANDFAN

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash">#BREAKING</a>: Judge rules in favor of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> in ESPN lawsuit <a href="http://t.co/Q8x1Y6qd7Q">http://t.co/Q8x1Y6qd7Q</a></p>— South Bend Tribune (@SBTribune) <a href="https://twitter.com/SBTribune/status/590184687395414016">April 20, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

GoIrish41

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BREAKING?src=hash">#BREAKING</a>: Judge rules in favor of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> in ESPN lawsuit <a href="http://t.co/Q8x1Y6qd7Q">http://t.co/Q8x1Y6qd7Q</a></p>— South Bend Tribune (@SBTribune) <a href="https://twitter.com/SBTribune/status/590184687395414016">April 20, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

haha. F*Ck you ESPN!!!!
 

PANDFAN

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no idea if this purely coincidental but just weird that moments after this verdict was given...espn tweets

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Notre Dame Spring Game Notes:
Everett Golson: 7-15, 83 yards, 0 TD, Int (Rush 24 yards, 1 TD) <a href="http://t.co/OB1V4KN8u1">http://t.co/OB1V4KN8u1</a> <a href="http://t.co/1uzayS8uKU">pic.twitter.com/1uzayS8uKU</a></p>— ESPN CollegeFootball (@ESPNCFB) <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNCFB/status/590191600409542656">April 20, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

phgreek

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Not shocked at all. Seemed like it had no chance from the get go.

Weird stuff happens in the "justice" system, so there is always the activist judge thing to worry about...but this seemed like there was really no place to go with this.

I hope they play EG down...I mean at the end of the day, exactly no team will take he or MZ lightly, and they will prepare for either/both as if they would have their best game, so if thats retaliation...good. In terms of public/media perceptions...I like them to have low expectations of kids...just presents the opportunity to way over deliver. So thanks ESPN on both counts.

Edit: The Article linked was pretty favorable for both QBs and even explained away the Int. As these things go...wasn't too bad...
 
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IrishLax

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Told you so. Told you so. Told you so.

Suck it, ESPN.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Yes the Papist conspiracy trumps the anti-Catholic bias, once again.

I have heard that someone on eleven warriors claims that the Judge hearing this was Catholic, and threatened with excommunication if he didn't rule against ESPN!
 

wizards8507

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Where is our favorite Wizard to give us his take on the ruling?
I'm not sure how I feel about it and haven't done as much reading as I should on the topic. At first glance, I'm pretty surprised. NDSP is a chartered police force, which kind of feels more like a public entity of the state of Indiana than a private entity of the University of Notre Dame. But the judge apparently disagrees. If they wanted university records or if NDSP were a private security group, I'd definitely feel strongly that the lawsuit was garbage. But their status as a full police force is what makes me question it. But I'm a CPA, not an attorney.

I also think that it's ridiculous that people are framing this as ESPN versus ND specifically. ESPN has gone after other schools' police records in the past, but most of the schools that anyone cares about in D1 are public so there's no gray area where a lawsuit is necessary. They just go straight to Tallahassee PD, Columbus PD, LAPD, Tuscaloosa PD, etc.

Big win for Notre Dame. Minor loss for ESPN. Big, big loss for those of us who want police force transparency.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I'm not sure how I feel about it and haven't done as much reading as I should on the topic. At first glance, I'm pretty surprised. NDSP is a chartered police force, which kind of feels more like a public entity of the state of Indiana than a private entity of the University of Notre Dame. But the judge apparently disagrees. If they wanted university records or if NDSP were a private security group, I'd definitely feel strongly that the lawsuit was garbage. But their status as a full police force is what makes me question it. But I'm a CPA, not an attorney.

I also think that it's ridiculous that people are framing this as ESPN versus ND specifically. ESPN has gone after other schools' police records in the past, but most of the schools that anyone cares about in D1 are public so there's no gray area where a lawsuit is necessary. They just go straight to Tallahassee PD, Columbus PD, LAPD, Tuscaloosa PD, etc.

Big win for Notre Dame. Minor loss for ESPN. Big, big loss for those of us who want police force transparency.

This is an apples to bananas, peaches, and coconuts comparison to me. In that order.
 

wizards8507

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This is an apples to bananas, peaches, and coconuts comparison to me. In that order.
That's exactly my point and it's the reason why ESPN hasn't sued other universities in similar cases.

I say: This isn't ESPN targeting ND.

ESPN hater says: Sure it is! They never sued anyone else.

I say: They never had to. Those other schools use public police so ESPN got those records no fuss.
 
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IrishLax

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That's exactly my point and it's the reason why ESPN hasn't sued other universities in similar cases.

I say: This isn't ESPN targeting ND.

ESPN hate says: Sure it is! They never sued anyone else.

I say: They never had to. Those other schools use public police so ESPN got those records no fuss.

And they actually have sued other schools in the past for records.

Bottom line is that the law is written a certain way, and until they change the law it'll continue to be interpreted the same way it has for multiple decades. There's only been one guy who has interpreted it otherwise. Don't like it? Simply change the law. But right now Indiana laws don't require ND/NDSP to answer to Joe Public when they have a request.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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That's exactly my point and it's the reason why ESPN hasn't sued other universities in similar cases.

I say: This isn't ESPN targeting ND.

ESPN hater says: Sure it is! They never sued anyone else.

I say: They never had to. Those other schools use public police so ESPN got those records no fuss.

I agree with everything you say, except, you do not go far enough. The point is that in Gainesville there are football players masterminding armed robberies. Any of the other schools you mention have just as serious of crime, and it is most often covered up.

At ND the most serious crime ever was what? Tommy Rees attempting to go on the lam?

So the point is the perseverance ESPN shows digging into a much more minor issue (knowing well that they are going to get resistance, brining them more attention) when there are major scandals out there being buried, (Number of UF or OSU arrests versus crimes committed, since say Aaron Hernandez was a freshman for the Gators), makes much further discussion of this laughable.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm glad that the lawsuit was shut down, ESPN doesn't need the material. Arrests and incidents happen at just about every campus every weekend of the year. At a football factory these kinds of things are barely a footnote on the front page if a player is involved (If it even makes the news), but at ND there's much greater visibility because they're perceived to be a paragon of virtue when the students are the same 18-22 crowd found everywhere else. An incident at ND = clicks, the same incident at another school may barely register.
 

kmoose

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Big win for Notre Dame. Minor loss for ESPN. Big, big win for those of us who are tired of the yellow journalism coming out of Bristol.

Fixed it for you. :wink:

This is no different, really, than an FAA Certificated Repair Station. If you want to repair aircraft, or aircraft parts, your business has to be certified by the FAA. That doesn't make your business a Federal Agency. It just means that a Federal Agency certifies that you can do the work.
 

Corry

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I agree with everything you say, except, you do not go far enough. The point is that in Gainesville there are football players masterminding armed robberies. Any of the other schools you mention have just as serious of crime, and it is most often covered up.

At ND the most serious crime ever was what? Tommy Rees attempting to go on the lam?

Shembo was pretty big. Does anyone know the reason they sued? What information did ESPN want?
 

IrishLax

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Shembo was pretty big. Does anyone know the reason they sued? What information did ESPN want?

Not sure, but the Tribune filed a request over the guy who fell in the dome and died pre-Michigan.
 

Huntr

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Shembo was pretty big. Does anyone know the reason they sued? What information did ESPN want?

One of the pieces I read specifically mentioned Seeberg, so yes, Shembo. Fishing for others, too.
 

Bishop2b5

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Big win for Notre Dame. Minor loss for ESPN. Big, big loss for those of us who want police force transparency.

I'm very uncomfortable with this lack of transparency for any police force. There's just too much potential for abuse, cover-ups, and other wrong-doing. Any group operating as a police force, regardless of what you want to call them, is a de facto police force and their actions need to be open to scrutiny and be held to a high standard. If you don't think so, look at all the stuff we find out every day about some police force from across the country who has been abusing their power, engaging in wide spread corruption, or abusing the citizens they're supposed to be serving and protecting.

I'm disappointed in some of you here. If this were the campus police for any other university, you'd be roundly criticizing that school for hiding behind the law and insinuating that they didn't want their police records opened because of all the shenanigans they must be covering up.
 
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