Students at UC Irvine vote to ban American flag

[Cackalacky]

I don't equate removing the symbol of the country you live in (that affords you first amendment rights) to exercising the first amendment.

UCI is fully public. Considered a public Ivy.

I guess that is where, intellectually and logically, you and I differ. I see that as being totally allowable and logical considering the weight and value of the first amendments declarations. America isn't just a country but an imperfect idea. Its iconology is many things not just the flag. Also the flag doesn't mean the same to everyone whether they are born here or not. In some parts of the world it has a negative connotations. But again, we are talking all flags and in one location IIRC. No problems with that.

Further, again, public institutions are to be representative of the populace and are by default supposed to be all inclusive by definition. If its within their abilities to do so given the school's charter.... Whatevs.

 

[dshans]

I don't equate removing the symbol of the country you live in (that affords you first amendment rights) to exercising the first amendment.

And why is that?

Apparently money equals speech.

Deliberative action does not?

 

[Irish YJ]

I guess that is where, intellectually and logically, you and I differ. I see that as being totally allowable and logical considering the weight and value of the first amendments declarations. America isn't just a country but an imperfect idea. Its iconology is many things not just the flag. Also the flag doesn't mean the same to everyone whether they are born here or not. In some parts of the world it has a negative connotations. But again, we are talking all flags and in one location IIRC. No problems with that.

Further, again, public institutions are to be representative of the populace and are by default supposed to be all inclusive by definition. If its within their abilities to do so given the school's charter.... Whatevs.

Which is exactly why a few young turds should not remove our nation's flag. A nationally and state funded school's "populace" is the country. I don't want my tax dollars going to a place like this..... , and I think I can speak for most (maybe I can't), but I have to believe the overwhelming majority of tax paying citizens would not like the idea of the US flag being removed. If this were a private university that received no public funds or tax benefits, then whatevs.

 

[Irish YJ]

And why is that?

Apparently money equals speech.

Deliberative action does not?

Flag removal = speech?

Intellectuals vs do-ers.
Real world vs college culture

 

[DonnieNarco]

From what I'm getting is this seems like an interior design thing that is blowing up. Those flag rooms are always so tacky.

 

[Irish YJ]

From what I'm getting is this seems like an interior design thing that is blowing up. Those flag rooms are always so tacky.

Yep, we all know you'd prefer the below for decoration.

 

[Cackalacky]

Which is exactly why a few young turds should not remove our nation's flag. A nationally and state funded school's "populace" is the country. I don't want my tax dollars going to a place like this..... , and I think I can speak for most (maybe I can't), but I have to believe the overwhelming majority of tax paying citizens would not like the idea of the US flag being removed. If this were a private university that received no public funds or tax benefits, then whatevs.

I did not mean the "populace" in that manner as I previously wrote.. Poor choice of words. I mean it is supposed to be all inclusive. So one's preference over what and where tax dollars go is another discussion altogether. You may speak for many... But IMO that doesn't change the gravity nor logical conclusions of actions resulting from first amendment exercises.

 

[Irish YJ]

I did not mean the "populace" in that manner as I previously wrote.. Poor choice of words. I mean it is supposed to be all inclusive. So one's preference over what and where tax dollars go is another discussion altogether. You may speak for many... But IMO that doesn't change the gravity nor logical conclusions of actions resulting from first amendment exercises.

I just don't interpret the FA like some I guess. Going back to my previous post, the anit-US, anti-Iseral stuff at UCI, OK, free speech. I just don't equate FA to mean removing the nations symbol.

Only if our founding fathers would have had a magical view into the 21st century when they penned all this fine stuff.

 

[Cackalacky]

I just don't interpret the FA like some I guess. Going back to my previous post, the anit-US, anti-Iseral stuff at UCI, OK, free speech. I just don't equate FA to mean removing the nations symbol.

Only if our founding fathers would have had a magical view into the 21st century when they penned all this fine stuff.

No worries..... I'm not even mad bro

The FFs knew enough to know things would change and that they were writing an incomplete/imperfect document.

 

[Irish YJ]

No worries..... I'm not even mad bro

The FFs knew enough to know things would change and that they were writing an incomplete/imperfect document.

No worries here either. I always appreciate your opinions even if I don't agree. Your thoughtful delivery makes me think and challenge my own opinions.

Yep, the FFs had a lot to "try" and envision. Very difficult job.

 

[Cackalacky]

No worries here either. I always appreciate your opinions even if I don't agree. Your thoughtful delivery makes me think and challenge my own opinions.

Yep, the FFs had a lot to "try" and envision. Very difficult job.

Samesies. Keep in mind too I am basing my argument on that this issue sounds more in line with typical secular humanism than being anti- American. That may not be the case and these kids are actually communists.

 

[ACamp1900]

Communists, definitely communists,....

 

[IrishinSyria]

When I was living in Syria, every single public space- from the smallest shop to the official government buildings, had pictures of Bashir al-Assad hanging in prominent spaces. So yes, I associate forcing people to hang up national symbols with regimes that are restrictive of free speech. I think that if free speech means anything, it has to mean that those who don't want to fly a flag don't have to. And reading the language of the resolution, that's all these students are doing. They're saying we don't want to hang (any) flag on the walls in one specific place. That's super cool with me. And I'm someone who volunteered to go to war wearing that flag on my right sleeve so it's not like I don't take the things that it stands for seriously.

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't care if you support the right or the left, this is just wrong.

 

[IrishLax]

OK let's strip away the existential bullshit for a hot minute... I want to make sure I understand this right...

Yes or no: this resolution banning flags means someone is PROHIBITED from bringing a flag into the domain in question.

If yes, that is an infringement on free speech.

If no, and someone still has the right to bring a flag in if they so choose but the resolution is just calling for the removal of "permanently" displayed flags it's a different debate.

But in case #1 it requires absurd mental gymnastics to consider it anything other than selective censorship.

 

[greyhammer90]

Well since they put it that way, I understand
lol
It's sad that we let some of this shit go on.

doesn't matter. in 100 years, a Hispanic or Asian flag will be flying anyway.

The new normal: Asians, Hispanics will soon outnumber current white majority

Someone here is conflating two totally different issues and isn't helping their cause at all.

 

[IrishinSyria]

OK let's strip away the existential bullshit for a hot minute... I want to make sure I understand this right...

Yes or no: this resolution banning flags means someone is PROHIBITED from bringing a flag into the domain in question.

No. The resolution bans flags that are hung on the wall.

From the article:

Under resolution R50-70 passed Thursday, the Associated Students of University of California, Irvine (ASUCI) voted to remove all flags – including Old Glory – from a student government work room on campus, according to the ASUCI website...

...Let it be resolved that ASUCI make every effort to make the Associated Students main lobby space as inclusive as possible. Let it further be resolved that no flag, of any nation, may be hanged on the walls of the Associate Student main lobby space.”

 

[Buster Bluth]

I just don't interpret the FA like some I guess. Going back to my previous post, the anit-US, anti-Iseral stuff at UCI, OK, free speech. I just don't equate FA to mean removing the nations symbol.

Only if our founding fathers would have had a magical view into the 21st century when they penned all this fine stuff.

I can't imagine Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc advocating great support for Israel. I think they'd say alliances with countries founded on religious motivations are a bad idea, considering their contribution to the progress of civilization was creating the first nation founded on separating religion and government.

 

[DonnieNarco]

If our founding fathers had a view into the 21st century they'd be like "What are those horseless carriages? Why is a slave the president? How are the buildings this big?"

 

[kmoose]

No. The resolution bans flags that are hung on the wall.

From the article:

If I was a student there, I would bring in a flag on a pole, and use epoxy to glue the base of the stand right to the floor in the middle of the room.

 

[dshans]

If I was a student there, I would bring in a flag on a pole, and use epoxy to glue the base of the stand right to the floor in the middle of the room.

You be sniffin' that glue???

Good shit, my man!!!

 

[dshans]

Only if our founding fathers would have had a magical view into the 21st century when they penned all this fine stuff.

Well.

How do I put this?

They did.

Believe it ...

 

[irish1958]

In my opinion, those who object to an American flag being hung in a public place, especially a school, should be hanged.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

 

[Booslum31]

I don't care if you support the right or the left, this is just wrong.

Agree. I just dont get it but I'm getting to the point where nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Grahambo]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

B.

You can at least make an argument about free speech and all that for UCI, despite me thinking they're dumb while the Confederate flag represents a horrible past, IMO.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

B without a doubt. The Confederate flag is a symbol of a group that killed Americans to have the right to own human beings.

 

[ulukinatme]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

If I remember correctly, the Confederate flag at the South Carolina state capitol is there along with a monument to the soldiers that died for the Confederacy during the war. I don't believe it's a symbol that South Carolina wants to succeed from the Union or anything, nor are they trying to promote slavery still. The flag certainly has a terrible past, but we've certainly come a long way since the Civil War. I think people make it out to be more than it is.

Still, even if South Carolina was flying the Confederate flag as something other than a tribute, that doesn't change the fact they have numerous other US flags flying on premises. The fact that UC-Irvine is removing the flag and not allowing it to be displayed is worse imo. A lot of men died and continue to die to give those students the freedom to make stupid choices. It's certainly their right to make that choice, but it feels like they're spitting in the face of those men who fought for that freedom.

 

[Irish YJ]

If our founding fathers had a view into the 21st century they'd be like "What are those horseless carriages? Why is a slave the president? How are the buildings this big?"

And "what are those metal birds doing, I like this clap on / clap off stuff, these Ben and Jerry guys are amazing, I'd like to know Victoria's secret, and the French still suck"..

Jefferson would probably ask, "why is William Godwin now calling himself DonnieNarco"

 

[Bluto]

If I remember correctly, the Confederate flag at the South Carolina state capitol is there along with a monument to the soldiers that died for the Confederacy during the war. I don't believe it's a symbol that South Carolina wants to succeed from the Union or anything, nor are they trying to promote slavery still. The flag certainly has a terrible past, but we've certainly come a long way since the Civil War.

Still, even if South Carolina was flying the Confederate flag as something other than a tribute, that doesn't change the fact they have numerous other US flags flying on premises. The fact that UC-Irvine is removing the flag and not allowing it to be displayed is worse imo.

So yeah, what is the confederate flag a tribute too? White power and racism in my opinion.