Brianne Altice: Criminal or National Treasure?

[IrishJayhawk]

I can get on board with your objection to the teacher-student dynamic. I think that's much more reasonable than the "...but they were only 16/17" argument.

I've taught high school kids for many years. Psychologically, I don't think 16/17 year olds are in a position to handle a sexual relationship with a 34 year old. I would hunch that the research bears that out, though I'm not sure where exactly to look. I think that is amplified when it's a teacher who holds a position of power over them.

 

[NDBoiler]

Personally, I don't think she's a criminal. Let's face it, those dudes wanted a tap that. Without any further knowledge, that's all we can assume. If I were them, I'd be trying to get with that if I had the opportunity. Is it technically illegal? Yes. Should she lose her job? Absolutely, but let's be fair here. If your their father, I'm pretty sure you'd be high-fiving your son right now. Yeah, if the roles were reversed it would be completely different. Yes, it's a double standard to think that, but that's just the reality of the situation.

That being said, I do applaud the justice system for being fair in this situation, because lord knows had this been a male teacher having sex with female students, then he'd be behind bars. So, there's that.

But a life sentence is beyond excessive. I'd say a 2 year sentence at most. This isn't a situation where she'll be in a position to "strike again". She won't be teaching anywhere for the rest of her natural life. You've basically taken her element away from her.

In regards to this, I'd be totally in favor of a double standard in the law books. A guy teacher would be so much stronger physically to make this potentially a much more abusive or controlling type of situation. If what phgreek says is accurate, then it seems this was pretty clearly a case of jealousy and not so much so abuse.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be having a long and detailed discussion with him as to why what happened to him was wrong and make sure he has a full understanding of what happened, but let's face it, at the end of the day, I'm sure every father wants their son to be hitting it. It's just natural to see your son growing up and developing, and scoring with a hot chick. That being said, it doesn't make the situation morally right, but that's just my two cents.

I appreciate that you'd have a conversation with him. But I can't get on board with anything else in your post.

Any other fathers here care to weigh in?

 

[wizards8507]

I'm sure every father wants their son to be hitting it. It's just natural to see your son growing up and developing, and scoring with a hot chick.

Wow... everything that's wrong with our culture in 30 words or less. Bro fathers raising bro sons. Nobody wants to be a man anymore.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Here's the thing, I think there are at least two separate issues at work her:

a: the abuse of the student-teacher relationship

This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem. Like I said, I certainly don't think she's fit to be in a classroom. However, this alone doesn't strike me as something that is per se criminal. For that, you'd need to move to

b: the age issue

We draw a line in the sand at 18, for reasons that make sense but are inherently arbitrary. It's not like a 17 year old is months away from a major life revelation that will dramatically improve his judgment. Our legal system tells us that a 17 year old cannot give consent, but that is pure fiction. I suspect that these boys were very eager to give consent. I think we have to respect the bright-line rule of 18, while at the same time modifying our response when the victims are just under that line.

 

[wizards8507]

I appreciate that you'd have a conversation with him. But I can't get on board with anything else in your post.

Any other fathers here care to weigh in?

Agree completely. I'm not in your "morally reprehensible" camp but I'm pretty surprised at the "yeaaaah buddy, tap that ass" attitude from a lot of posters.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not advocating for a life sentence. I just think it's one of the most morally reprehensible things in the world and didn't expect such a universal locker room mentality in this thread.

One of the "most morally reprehensible things in the world"? For real?

In my state, if this wasn't a studen/teacher relationship, it would be totally legal what she did. The only basis in my state for this being wrong is because she's a teacher.

So I'm sorry, but I totally disagree that I put her crime up there with the "most morally represhensible things in the world" like actual child molestation, murder, forced rape, etc.

 

[Crazy Balki]

In regards to this, I'd be totally in favor of a double standard in the law books. A guy teacher would be so much stronger physically to make this potentially a much more abusive or controlling type of situation. If what phgreek says is accurate, then it seems this was pretty clearly a case of jealousy and not so much so abuse.

Very true, but a part of me gets pissed that men are just naturally always the aggressors, while females are the victims. Sadly that's just the reality of the situation. So, somewhat glad to see the shoe on the other foot for once.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Here's the thing, I think there are at least two separate issues at work her:

a: the abuse of the student-teacher relationship

This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem. Like I said, I certainly don't think she's fit to be in a classroom. However, this alone doesn't strike me as something that is per se criminal. For that, you'd need to move to

b: the age issue

We draw a line in the sand at 18, for reasons that make sense but are inherently arbitrary. It's not like a 17 year old is months away from a major life revelation that will dramatically improve his judgment. Our legal system tells us that a 17 year old cannot give consent, but that is pure fiction. I suspect that these boys were very eager to give consent. I think we have to respect the bright-line rule of 18, while at the same time modifying our response when the victims are just under that line.

I understand that the bar is somewhat arbitrary. But how would you determine consent? Certainly you're not advocating that 12 year olds can consent. Do you go case by case? Age of puberty? High school age seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[IrishLax]

Here's the thing, I think there are at least two separate issues at work her:

a: the abuse of the student-teacher relationship

This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem. Like I said, I certainly don't think she's fit to be in a classroom. However, this alone doesn't strike me as something that is per se criminal. For that, you'd need to move to

b: the age issue

We draw a line in the sand at 18, for reasons that make sense but are inherently arbitrary. It's not like a 17 year old is months away from a major life revelation that will dramatically improve his judgment. Our legal system tells us that a 17 year old cannot give consent, but that is pure fiction. I suspect that these boys were very eager to give consent. I think we have to respect the bright-line rule of 18, while at the same time modifying our response when the victims are just under that line.

To take this a step further, for this very reason they've put latitude in most prosecutor situations where you can try a minor as an adult. If you can try a 13 year old as an ADULT for something like murder... why isn't there grounds to say a 17 year old can consent in certain situations? It's all just highly illogical.

 

[BeauBenken]

Pretty much where I'm at. I cannot for the life of me understand what "harm" came to any of the "victims."

I mean that quite seriously... can someone please explain to me what tangible harm could've come to any of these guys per alleged actions? I'd change my mind if someone can make a good argument.

Well once we get rid of the idea of statutory rape, we can call this stupid. Until then, she deserves time.

Keep in mind that she could just as easily go after full grown men. Why is she going after 17 year old boys? After a while, the idea of being with someone so young is pretty disturbing. I'm 21 and there are girls that are over 18 but still too young for myself.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

One of the "most morally reprehensible things in the world"? For real?

In my state, if this wasn't a studen/teacher relationship, it would be totally legal what she did. The only basis in my state for this being wrong is because she's a teacher.

So I'm sorry, but I totally disagree that I put her crime up there with the "most morally represhensible things in the world" like actual child molestation, murder, forced rape, etc.

Of course I don't put it in with murder, forced rape, etc. Understand that I'm particularly sensitive to it because I'm a teacher. I view the teacher-student trust to be pretty sacred. It's an incredible black mark on the profession when stuff like this comes out.

 

[dad4aa]

For me the issue of coming down to a double standard is simple. For most women, and yes this includes teenage girls, sex is about an emotional connection. For guys of all ages it's about physical pleasure. So again, even though it is a double standard, I would have a much harder time with a 35 year-old man having sex with a 16 or 17 year-old girl than I woud with this situation. I do not believe for one minute that these high school boys were coerced or felt that she was in love with them. Again, JMO.

 

[pkt77242]

Well once we get rid of the idea of statutory rape, we can call this stupid. Until then, she deserves time.

Keep in mind that she could just as easily go after full grown men. Why is she going after 17 year old boys? After a while, the idea of being with someone so young is pretty disturbing. I'm 21 and there are girls that are over 18 but still too young for myself.

Then there is something wrong with you then.

 

[woolybug25]

To take this a step further, for this very reason they've put latitude in most prosecutor situations where you can try a minor as an adult. If you can try a 13 year old as an ADULT for something like murder... why isn't there grounds to say a 17 year old can consent in certain situations? It's all just highly illogical.

I'll add to your thought by reminding everyone that not every state even "draws the line in the sand at 18". In Michigan for instance, the age of consent is 16 (which seems young, but I don't make the rules).

 

[IrishinSyria]

I understand that the bar is somewhat arbitrary. But how would you determine consent? Certainly you're not advocating that 12 year olds can consent. Do you go case by case? Age of puberty? High school age seems pretty reasonable to me.

To take this a step further, for this very reason they've put latitude in most prosecutor situations where you can try a minor as an adult. If you can try a 13 year old as an ADULT for something like murder... why isn't there grounds to say a 17 year old can consent in certain situations? It's all just highly illogical.

Mostly what IrishLax said. I think that a case by case determination makes sense (and maybe that will happen during the trial.) I'd look at things like who initiated the pursuit, whether the 17 year olds had been in sexual situations before, etc...

I mean, the girl seems like she's got some issues of her own. Getting involved with 4 separate high school students, even after you've had charges filed against you, strikes me as indicative of more than just bad judgment. If you're talking about 4 confident guys and one woman with emotional issues, I'm not so sure that age is enough to establish that they were the victims and not the other way around.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I'll add to your thought by reminding everyone that not every state even "draws the line in the sand at 18". In Michigan for instance, the age of consent is 16 (which seems young, but I don't make the rules).

It's slippery. What age would you favor? 17? In that case, do the teacher's actions with a 16 year old become "child abuse"?

 

[woolybug25]

Of course I don't put it in with murder, forced rape, etc. Understand that I'm particularly sensitive to it because I'm a teacher. I view the teacher-student trust to be pretty sacred. It's an incredible black mark on the profession when stuff like this comes out.

I think most can get on board with that, but you did call it "one of the most morally reprehensible things in the world", which if we are having real debate on the issue... Simply overshadows the reasonable parts of your argument.

I know it was probably just poor wording though. I believe that I understand the underlying narrative you are trying to present.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Can't speak for Utah but in NJ, as long as both parties are of consenting age, the teacher in question is charged with official misconduct. That law does not allow teachers and students to have a sexual relationships. Similarly to how a prison guard can't have sex with a prisoner or a psychologist and patient. We just had a teacher who banged an 18 yr old 2 months before graduation. She wasn't charged with sexual assault but official misconduct. A lot of people can't grasp that it's not sexual assault that's the crime but rather the position the teacher holds forbids such contact

This is the key point. It is definitely misconduct on the part of a teacher to have sex with a student, regardless of the genders of the parties. But I also think it is a little hard for people to get their head around the idea of this being considered rape or child molestation. Those label just don't really seem to fit based on our social norms.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think most can get on board with that, but you did call it "one of the most morally reprehensible things in the world", which if we are having real debate on the issue... Simply overshadows the reasonable parts of your argument.

I know it was probably just poor wording though. I believe that I understand the underlying narrative you are trying to present.

Hyperbole is the most amazing tool available to mankind.

 

[woolybug25]

It's slippery. What age would you favor? 17? In that case, do the teacher's actions with a 16 year old become "child abuse"?

Keep in mind, even in MI, teachers can't sleep with students regardless of age.

But to answer your question, I think it depends on the situation and what happened. Ultimately, I agree with you that the teacher/student dynamic should be a sacred one. I just disagree that all cases should be looked at exactly the same.

There is a world of difference between a ten year old girl getting molested by her teacher and a seventeen year old guy seducing his teacher. The punishment should fit the crime.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Agree completely. I'm not in your "morally reprehensible" camp but I'm pretty surprised at the "yeaaaah buddy, tap that ass" attitude from a lot of posters.

That's not what I was getting at, but I think I may have exaggerated my point. When I said "high fiving" him, I kinda just meant, you'd be proud of him for being sexually active. I'd like to think that every father wants their son to be successful in their sexual conquest to an extent. This doesn't mean high fiving them every time they score with a hotty, which is my fault for giving off that indication. That being said, it's a near 18 year old man getting some. I'd think there'd be some vicarious happiness knowing this.

That doesn't make the situation morally right, but you have to realize your son will make morally right and wrong decisions. You just need to make sure he knows the repercussions and benefits for making those decisions before he sets out into the world.

 

[BeauBenken]

Then there is something wrong with you then.

Some of them still look and act like children to me, I don't think that's that screwed up.

 

[pkt77242]

Some of them still look and act like children to me, I don't think that's that screwed up.

Then they aren't too young for you, they are too immature (mentally, emotionally or both). Two completely different things.

As far as looks go, that is a personal preference. I know some guys who think Ariana Grande is hot and I know some guys who thinks she looks like she is 14 and are disgusted by it (for the record she is 21). Too each their own.

 

[woolybug25]

Some of them still look and act like children to me, I don't think that's that screwed up.

I think it's funny because I know what you look like and some of those 18 year old girls might look older than you. Ha.

 

[phgreek]

In regards to this, I'd be totally in favor of a double standard in the law books. A guy teacher would be so much stronger physically to make this potentially a much more abusive or controlling type of situation. If what phgreek says is accurate, then it seems this was pretty clearly a case of jealousy and not so much so abuse.

Here this explains the development of the relationship:
Teacher accused of sexual abuse of student to stand trial | KSL.com

The cops I know said the kid came forward after they went to him...they got involved because another teacher at the school had heard enough of the rumor mill, and took it up the chain, and an administrator called in the boys in Blue. Regardless, of how we got here...she needs some time on the clink...

 

[Crazy Balki]

Here this explains the development of the relationship:
Teacher accused of sexual abuse of student to stand trial | KSL.com

The cops I know said the kid came forward after they went to him...they got involved because another teacher at the school had heard enough of the rumor mill, and took it up the chain, and an administrator called in the boys in Blue. Regardless, of how we got here...she needs some time on the clink...

I still think she shouldn't be put in jail. Fired? Yes. It just seems like one of those situations where there needs to be collaborative agreement in the act. I don't think the guys were just forced to have sex. I'm sure they actually wanted to hit that. Now, that could be completely wrong and she forced them into bed by threatening to fail them. But at this point, the former seems a lot more realistic.

 

[wizards8507]

I'd like to think that every father wants their son to be successful in their sexual conquest to an extent.

Really? "Sexual conquest?" Are we cavemen?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I still think she shouldn't be put in jail. Fired? Yes. It just seems like one of those situations where there needs to be collaborative agreement in the act. I don't think the guys were just forced to have sex. I'm sure they actually wanted to hit that. Now, that could be completely wrong and she forced them into bed by threatening to fail them. But at this point, the former seems a lot more realistic.

There is an inherent power dynamic. In that situation, she doesn't have to be actively threatening anything for it to be coercion.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Really? "Sexual conquest?" Are we cavemen?

Right?