Is CBB in worse shape than CFB?

[wizards8507]

First let me say this: I know nothing about college basketball.

With that out of the way, I came across a short article (below) about Jahlil Okafor and how Mike Krzyzewski only expects him to be at Duke for one season. Coach K comes off completely nonchalant about this, like it's a total normal thing that big time college basketball programs deal with every year. What kind of blows my mind is that Duke is up there with Stanford, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Notre Dame as a truly elite academic university that also happens to have nationally competitive athletics. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of this type of thing can explain this to me or point me towards a good article that outlines the situation. Football kind of has a built in safety net that prevents one-and-dones in that most kids aren't physically able to compete at a professional level until their early 20s. Are "basketball factories" a bigger problem than "football factories"? What does a kid like Jahlil Okafor actually DO for the two semesters he's on Duke's campus? Does he even bother faking like he goes to class and does real work?

Mike Krzyzewski expects Jahlil Okafor to be one-and-done for Duke Blue Devils - ESPN

 

[woolybug25]

In one word... yes.



College basketball is a complete dumpster fire. If they didn't have the best playoff in sports, it would go the way of the dodo.

 

[IrishLax]

Yeah, there is a lot of talk that the one-and-done system... which exists only to protect NBA franchises from high school busts... has basically killed college basketball*. It's an absurd system that isn't really fair to anyone. It has also almost completely devalued the regular season of college basketball to the point where nothing matters except getting a berth in the tournament. It's gotten so strange that Kentucky at one point seriously tried to put in a system that would allow players to graduate in 1 year... which is such a farce. It completely undermines the NCAA's stance on "educating" and amateurism that the top players are hired guns for a season. Most believe the rule should be min-3 like football or no requirement.

*March Madness is still great. But everything else shows a serious decline in interest for "regular" games.

 

[wizards8507]

Yeah, there is a lot of talk that the one-and-done system... which exists only to protect NBA franchises from high school busts... has basically killed college basketball*. It's an absurd system that isn't really fair to anyone. It has also almost completely devalued the regular season of college basketball to the point where nothing matters except getting a berth in the tournament. It's gotten so strange that Kentucky at one point seriously tried to put in a system that would allow players to graduate in 1 year... which is such a farce. It completely undermines the NCAA's stance on "educating" and amateurism that the top players are hired guns for a season. Most believe the rule should be min-3 like football or no requirement.

But the NCAA has nothing to do with the system, right? Like they don't sit down with the NBA and scheme "okay... here's what we're going to do". Or do they? If the NBA wants to say "you must wait one year before coming into the NBA," that's on them. Then it's the schools' responsibility to protect the academic integrity of their programs.

 

[tussin]

In one word... yes.



College basketball is a complete dumpster fire. If they didn't have the best playoff in sports, it would go the way of the dodo.

As Wiz pointed out, it's only more egregious because of the quicker physical development of NBA prospects. Generally speaking, it makes no sense that the training ground for professional sports is associated with academic universities in any sport.

If your only goal is to make the NBA or NFL, don't go to college. Join a development league or go overseas, improve your game, and make money while doing. I know the prospective NFLers don't have that luxury and probably never will, but that is how it should work. Leave college sports to the true student athletes.

 

[tussin]

Yeah, there is a lot of talk that the one-and-done system... which exists only to protect NBA franchises from high school busts... has basically killed college basketball*. It's an absurd system that isn't really fair to anyone. It has also almost completely devalued the regular season of college basketball to the point where nothing matters except getting a berth in the tournament. It's gotten so strange that Kentucky at one point seriously tried to put in a system that would allow players to graduate in 1 year... which is such a farce. It completely undermines the NCAA's stance on "educating" and amateurism that the top players are hired guns for a season. Most believe the rule should be min-3 like football or no requirement.

*March Madness is still great. But everything else shows a serious decline in interest for "regular" games.

It's also not fair to the one-and-done kids. If some NBA team is dumb enough to draft an 18 year old with no skills then that kid should be able to cash in.

 

[wizards8507]

As Wiz pointed out, it's only more egregious because of the quicker physical development of NBA prospects. Generally speaking, it makes no sense that the training ground for professional sports is associated with academic universities in any sport.

If your only goal is to make the NBA or NFL, don't go to college. Join a development league or go overseas, improve your game, and make money while doing. I know the prospective NFLers don't have that luxury and probably never will, but that is how it should work. Leave college sports to the true student athletes.

This this this. And it's the answer to the "pay the players" argument too. Let all the pro-or-bust guys go do their thing in the minor leagues and repopulate college sports with nothing but #RKGs.

 

[Emcee77]

First let me say this: I know nothing about college basketball.

With that out of the way, I came across a short article (below) about Jahlil Okafor and how Mike Krzyzewski only expects him to be at Duke for one season. Coach K comes off completely nonchalant about this, like it's a total normal thing that big time college basketball programs deal with every year. What kind of blows my mind is that Duke is up there with Stanford, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Notre Dame as a truly elite academic university that also happens to have nationally competitive athletics. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of this type of thing can explain this to me or point me towards a good article that outlines the situation. Football kind of has a built in safety net that prevents one-and-dones in that most kids aren't physically able to compete at a professional level until their early 20s. Are "basketball factories" a bigger problem than "football factories"? What does a kid like Jahlil Okafor actually DO for the two semesters he's on Duke's campus? Does he even bother faking like he goes to class and does real work?

Mike Krzyzewski expects Jahlil Okafor to be one-and-done for Duke Blue Devils - ESPN

Right, and also the NFL won't let kids enter the draft until they've been out of high school for 3 years. The NBA only requires you to a year removed from high school, I think.

But yeah, I tend to think the NBA's one-year-rule is stupid and harms college basketball -- not from the standpoint of college basketball fans and TV networks and media members covering college basketball, who actually benefit from a rule forcing star prep players to go to college for at least a year, but from the perspective of the other students, professors and alumni of the schools, who have a stake in the integrity of the institution of college basketball at their particular school. Players like Okafor or Jabari Parker last year ... I have a hard time seeing them as legit student-athletes. They are athletes who moonlight as students for a year.

As Wiz pointed out, it's only more egregious because of the quicker physical development of NBA prospects. Generally speaking, it makes no sense that the training ground for professional sports is associated with academic universities in any sport.

If your only goal is to make the NBA or NFL, don't go to college. Join a development league or go overseas, improve your game, and make money while doing. I know the prospective NFLers don't have that luxury and probably never will, but that is how it should work. Leave college sports to the true student athletes.

Yes, exactly. I've been saying this for years.

 

[woolybug25]

As Wiz pointed out, it's only more egregious because of the quicker physical development of NBA prospects. Generally speaking, it makes no sense that the training ground for professional sports is associated with academic universities in any sport.

If your only goal is to make the NBA or NFL, don't go to college. Join a development league or go overseas, improve your game, and make money while doing. I know the prospective NFLers don't have that luxury and probably never will, but that is how it should work. Leave college sports to the true student athletes.

Absolutely agree. The "protection" of the one and done rule has had the exact opposite effect.

 

[IrishLax]

But the NCAA has nothing to do with the system, right? Like they don't sit down with the NBA and scheme "okay... here's what we're going to do". Or do they? If the NBA wants to say "you must wait one year before coming into the NBA," that's on them. Then it's the schools' responsibility to protect the academic integrity of their programs.

Correct. They're the ones getting screwed by the NBA.

I've heard it said that the only thing they can do to rectify the situation is enforce graduation rate standards that count earl leavers (i.e. get away from the bogus APR) such that recruiting more than one or two one-and-dones like Kentucky would destroy your program. But there are obvious loopholes and problems with that.

Alternatively, the NCAA could sue the NBA, but the grounds for such a suit are almost non-existent. It would be more just to send a message. Lastly, they could ban NBA scouts, etc. from games and make a lot of other rules to just annoy the NBA/encourage matriculation to developmental leagues for these players. But all of these measures are largely toothless and immaterial.

 

[IrishLax]

It's also not fair to the one-and-done kids. If some NBA team is dumb enough to draft an 18 year old with no skills then that kid should be able to cash in.

Yup, it's literally not fair to anyone except the NBA franchises who run a slightly smaller risk of drafting busts.

 

[IrishLax]

Oh sorry I forgot one... the "nuclear option" is to go to freshman ineligibility like football used to have.

If you made it so that no freshman were allowed to play, and you couldn't step foot on a basketball court until your soph year, then all "high talent" guys dreaming of going 1-and-done would go somewhere besides the NCAA.

It'd be kind of messed up on a lot of levels though.

 

[wizards8507]

Question: If I'm big-talent so-and-so from High School XYZ, why on earth would I want to go to Duke and fake it when I can go to a developmental league or Europe and get paid actually money and not worry about playing school?

 

[Emcee77]

Oh sorry I forgot one... the "nuclear option" is to go to freshman ineligibility like football used to have.

If you made it so that no freshman were allowed to play, and you couldn't step foot on a basketball court until your soph year, then all "high talent" guys dreaming of going 1-and-done would go somewhere besides the NCAA.

It'd be kind of messed up on a lot of levels though.

Oh, man, I would love that. That would be a great idea.

The thing about basketball is the kids have other options. Brandon Jennings went and played in Rome for a year rather than go to college (I think he had test score issues). There's no reason other top players couldn't do that. So I wouldn't feel bad for anybody if the NCAA went back to frosh ineligibility. It would weed out exactly the type of player I'd like to weed out.

 

[IrishInFl]

I like the college hockey model of draft entry. A player can be drafted out of high school, college, or enter the nhl undrafted. On a related note:

In announcing addition of varsity hockey, Arizona State hopes to ‘tip the dominos’ for Pac-12 schools :: USCHO.com :: U.S. College Hockey Online

College hockey is in the best shape it's ever been. Arizona State got a $32 million donation to start a D1 program. Other Pac-12 teams look immanent.

 

[wizards8507]

So I wouldn't feel bad for anybody if the NCAA went back to frosh ineligibility. It would weed out exactly the type of player I'd like to weed out.

Yeah but caught up in that would be the kid good enough to play right away who really does want a degree.

 

[tussin]

Question: If I'm big-talent so-and-so from High School XYZ, why on earth would I want to go to Duke and fake it when I can go to a developmental league or Europe and get paid actually money and not worry about playing school?

TV exposure, competition against other HS one-and-doners that translate well to the NBA, and the chance that you will go to a really good Euro team and not get a lot of minutes.

 

[Emcee77]

Question: If I'm big-talent so-and-so from High School XYZ, why on earth would I want to go to Duke and fake it when I can go to a developmental league or Europe and get paid actually money and not worry about playing school?

There really aren't such leagues with good competition in the States, and not every kid is adventurous enough to want to go overseas. I think most of them would rather just put off the big money for a year (during which they will be slaying college chicks in their spare time) than go overseas and have a difficult and lonely, if lucrative, year. I mean, living overseas can be very isolating and difficult, especially in a country where you don't speak the language.

Having said that ... what you are suggesting is exactly what I would do if I were a top player focused primarily on my hoops career.

Yeah but caught up in that would be the kid good enough to play right away who really does want a degree.

True, but he could still come to college. He just wouldn't be able to play right away. There's an opportunity to get ahead on credits and graduate in 3 years.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm for creating a system that requires the player to make a choice out of high school. Either

A) Enter the NBA draft. If you don't get drafted or signed by an NBA team, you can go ahead and go to college but you have to sit out a year (similar to transfers).

B) Go to college and follow NCAA football rules (aka stay 3 years minimum).

I think this would be the best system because the NCAA product would be so much more entertaining and balanced. The NBA doesn't really suffer at all as the elite kids will likely go to the NBA anyway. The other kids will be a lot more developed.

The kids benefit because the elite players can bet on themselves and the others will actually be forced to get an education.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Let them go to the league or go to college for 3 years.

 

[tussin]

Let them go to the league or go to college for 3 years.

But that's not fair to the prospective pros.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'm for creating a system that requires the player to make a choice out of high school. Either

A) Enter the NBA draft. If you don't get drafted or signed by an NBA team, you can go ahead and go to college but you have to sit out a year (similar to transfers).

B) Go to college and follow NCAA football rules (aka stay 3 years minimum).

I think this would be the best system because the NCAA product would be so much more entertaining and balanced. The NBA doesn't really suffer at all as the elite kids will likely go to the NBA anyway. The other kids will be a lot more developed.

The kids benefit because the elite players can bet on themselves and the others will actually be forced to get an education.

I like this, but let me throw this out there for discussion...

From the NBA's perspective, only select players out of HS in the top ten. Guys like Lebron James, Dwight Howard, Tracy McGrady, Amar'e Stoudemire, etc still get drafted. There are some busts, but that's fine that's on the NBA. I also think GMs are less likely to take HS players if... you must be three out of high school to be drafted otherwise. Guys who have proven themselves in the amateur (read: college) game would almost certainly be better options, unless they're clearly studs.

So a HS player can declare himself available for the draft at no risk to himself, if the NBA doesn't select him top ten, then there is a three-year wait.

From the NCAA's perspective, teams only get X amount of scholarships over four years. It's not just an annual turnover issue of "I have six freshmen and five flunked out so hey here's five more scholarships!" No no no. The coaches care about their paycheck, which comes through winning...so taking high-risk guys should have a risk to it. Maybe the number is 15. Don't let your kids flunk out and it won't hurt you. Early entrants to the NBA do count against the number, medical retirement does not (but must petition the NCAA to regain the scholarship, it's not assumed).

 

[Corry]

I'm for creating a system that requires the player to make a choice out of high school. Either

A) Enter the NBA draft. If you don't get drafted or signed by an NBA team, you can go ahead and go to college but you have to sit out a year (similar to transfers).

B) Go to college and follow NCAA football rules (aka stay 3 years minimum).

I think this would be the best system because the NCAA product would be so much more entertaining and balanced. The NBA doesn't really suffer at all as the elite kids will likely go to the NBA anyway. The other kids will be a lot more developed.

The kids benefit because the elite players can bet on themselves and the others will actually be forced to get an education.

That's how it is in baseball, and I think it works out well for everyone.

 

[Wild Bill]

If it wasn't for the tourney, CBB would be in worse shape than Mark Mangino.

 

[BobbyMac]

Oh sorry I forgot one... the "nuclear option" is to go to freshman ineligibility like football used to have.

If you made it so that no freshman were allowed to play, and you couldn't step foot on a basketball court until your soph year, then all "high talent" guys dreaming of going 1-and-done would go somewhere besides the NCAA.

It'd be kind of messed up on a lot of levels though.

Basketball used to have the same restriction on freshman being able to play.

Question: If I'm big-talent so-and-so from High School XYZ, why on earth would I want to go to Duke and fake it when I can go to a developmental league or Europe and get paid actually money and not worry about playing school?

It's about building your brand. It's hard to build your North American brand while playing in Israel, Greece or Italy


Basketball should run it's draft much like baseball.

Players eligible for the draft are:

-- High school players, if they have graduated from high school and have not yet attended college or junior college.

-- College players, from four-year colleges who have either completed their junior or senior years or are at least 21 years old.

-- Junior college players, regardless of how many years of school they have completed.

I would drop the third rule because you would get blue chip players either attending a juco for a year and then declaring or transferring down from top flight DI programs like Kansas to attend a juco like Hutchinson CC. That gets them to the league a year sooner than staying at KU. This is counter productive to what the NBA is trying to accomplish.

If they are going to draft high school players which I think they should... they need to invest in the D League more and mirror the fan experience that minor league baseball provides.

.

 

[T Town Tommy]

A bigger problem as well is the fact that International ball has become a huge money maker. Trying to limit kids coming out of high school more than one year will push more of them to the pro leagues overseas... some of which pay huge money.

Calipari has been very vocal about trying to get the NBA to go to a two year waiting period and get away from the one and done. He even went as far as saying let the NBA pay insurance on college players in a sort of pool system. He gets a lot of criticism for recruiting one and done players, but he is really no different than any other coach... even Coach K.

The whole system stinks and has ruined CBB. But with the huge success of the NBA and the money being tossed around, it is hard to tell a kid not to go. Sadly, until the NBA wants to fix the problem, and fix the effects of International teams signing players, it won't go away.

 

[connect the dots]

You'll probably have to lower the goals to 8 ft. if you wanna play with kids who can get in/afford college themselves.

Amen brother! And, Charlotte Catholic will probably have to keep recruiting kids like Elijah Hood, if they wanna continue to be competitive in Carolina high school sports.

 

[BobbyMac]

Many of you keep saying that college basketball is a mess and I would say that it's been all down hill since 1979. There has never been a higher rated basketball game, college or pro since Bird and Magic. The #2 game was the '92 final between the Fab 5 and the Duke squad with Laettner, Hurley and Hill. Even the Bulls - Jazz clincher in '98 (highest rated NBA game ever) was less than the '79 championship game.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Amen brother! And, Charlotte Catholic will probably have to keep recruiting kids like Elijah Hood, if they wanna continue to be competitive in Carolina high school sports.

Lol, you're a dud. The kid's dad played for us, as did his uncle. Good try.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Many of you keep saying that college basketball is a mess and I would say that it's been all down hill since 1979. There has never been a higher rated basketball game, college or pro since Bird and Magic. The #2 game was the '92 final between the Fab 5 and the Duke squad with Laettner, Hurley and Hill. Even the Bulls - Jazz clincher in '98 (highest rated NBA game ever) was less than the '79 championship game.

As far as total number of viewers or percentage of those who watched?