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clashmore_jon

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Totally agree. Don't short cut the process...expedite the process.

These administrators typically don't care whatsoever about how these things affect the football team. They will handle it on their own schedule--anything else would be showing favoritism (or the opposite of that).
 

palinurus

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On one hand, the surest way to open yourself to criticism is to appear to act too hastily. That's when people (on respective sides) scream "Railroad!!" or "Favored treatment."

On the other hand, I wonder (don't know, I'm not an insider by any means) whether there are some administrative/academics types involved in this process who, consciously or unconsciously, feel like they need to make a point that "it's only football" and "this is a university, not a football factory."

"All deliberate speed," should be the motto and practice, on this and all such cases, athletes involved or not.
 

Irish#1

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You're saying a few weeks total (starting from August 15th) correct? Not a few weeks from when the investigation is complete?

I don't have a problem with them following the steps of the process. I have a problem with the current process and it's inability to be flexible for important scenarios, strickly student ones as well as football players. Their hands are tied and I get that, but this process is BS IMO. Like I said, what if this happened June 1st? These players would be held out the entire summer and fall camp/practice because 'well the students aren't back, so just sit on it for a few months'?

And if they're found not guilty, that's complete BS.

You need to get over this, or I'm going to send you to your room and there won't be a juice box and Little Debbie snack for you either.

Remember, football is not the number one priority of the school. It may be to you, but it's not to the school/administration. All athletes are treated as students first and will always be looked at as students before they are viewed as athletes. That's one reason ND doesn't have an athletic dorm.
 
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koonja

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You need to get over this, or I'm going to send you to your room and there won't be a juice box and Little Debbie snack for you either.

Remember, football is not the number one priority of the school. It may be to you, but it's not to the school/administration. All athletes are treated as students first and will always be looked at as students before they are viewed as athletes. That's one reason ND doesn't have an athletic dorm.

I'm not getting over it, and I want my juice box.

If there's a kid in law school who's thrown into this mess as well (and later found to be not guilty), and he has a debate coming up that firms/employers will be present at, I'm just as pissed off that they'd hold him out of the debate, without making every effort to expedite his investigation and decision.

It's the 21st century and not all student athletes and students are equal. If you have an exceptional case, make room for an exception before you fuck someone over.
 

IrishLax

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The thing is "expediting the process" is not that simple. All these things have to happen in no particular order:

A) All the members of the committee must be able to meet at a time that was not previously agreed to. Seems like, at most, a minor hurdle.
B) Either: 1) they have to skip over other cases or (2) they have to meet for a longer period of time than normal in order to resolve the other cases before they get to the players. Seems like a reasonable expectation.
C) Appeals? Happens AFTER initial hearings, so kind of irrelevant to what we're discussing, right?
D) After the resolution, the Football program and the University have to agree on the proper way to handle in the PR sense. Definitely irrelevant.

My thoughts are bolded.

So as wizards noted, this process only started last week. A few weeks is fairly reasonable I think

I'm as frustrated as anyone, particularly because I'm sick of losing to Michigan. But I don't think much more can be done.

How is a few weeks "reasonable"? Look, I've never been in one of these hearings but I understand the gist of how they work. Simply put it's a 15-30 minute process at most. They already have all the evidence, they let you say your piece and answer questions, and then you leave and they discuss/rule.

The fact that they -- allegedly -- haven't even gotten around to fitting in the initial hearing is ridiculous. There is a time sensitive aspect to this, the same as if you had some kid up for a Rhodes' Scholar with his interview coming up. You move the kid to the front of the line, fit the hearing in, and get a ruling.

Literally sitting on your collective ass for days to weeks without holding hearings while people remain in complete limbo is, IMO, not reasonable.
 

Irish#1

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Just saying if KVR is innocent, he needs to sue ND for all he can. This is silly and without merit. It doesnt take weeks to review data to see if someone cheated or not. Honor code my ass. Either he is guilty which case you state it and on with the show, or say you dont have enough evidence and hes innocent. If the data is there, which is all they will have, they should be able to have a decision by now. If Im Kelly, Im raising all kids of cain about dragging this out.

I understand ND rising above but this just seems excessive. Seems like there are too many people of influence that wants to see the football program suffer. They seem to forget that without football, ND probably wouldnt even be open today.

"When was the last time 100,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damn science experiement?" - James Caan "The Program"

Tell me my eyes are playing tricks on me.
 

wizards8507

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If there's a kid in law school who's thrown into this mess as well (and later found to be not guilty), and he has a debate coming up that firms/employers will be present at, I'm just as pissed off that they'd hold him out of the debate, without making every effort to expedite his investigation and decision.
You keep missing the fact that if we play these guys without being 100% sure, we RISK VACATING WINS. I'd MUCH rather be safe than sorry.
 
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koonja

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My thoughts are bolded.



How is a few weeks "reasonable"? Look, I've never been in one of these hearings but I understand the gist of how they work. Simply put it's a 15-30 minute process at most. They already have all the evidence, they let you say your piece and answer questions, and then you leave and they discuss/rule.

The fact that they -- allegedly -- haven't even gotten around to fitting in the initial hearing is ridiculous. There is a time sensitive aspect to this, the same as if you had some kid up for a Rhodes' Scholar with his interview coming up. You move the kid to the front of the line, fit the hearing in, and get a ruling.

Literally sitting on your collective ass for days to weeks without holding hearings while people remain in complete limbo is, IMO, not reasonable.

Lax agrees with me even though he won't admit it :).
 
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koonja

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You keep missing the fact that if we play these guys without being 100% sure, we RISK VACATING WINS. I'll take my chances.

Even know now that 2, maybe 3 will be NOT GUILTY. If we have a damn good idea that's going to be the case, those are the indivuals you expedite the process for.

If they're football players and you think it's likely they're guilty, I have less of a problem.
 

wizards8507

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Even know now that 2, maybe 3 will be NOT GUILTY. If we have a damn good idea that's going to be the case, those are the indivuals you expedite the process for.

If they're football players and you think it's likely they're guilty, I have less of a problem.
"Guilty" and "innocent" aren't anywhere near that black-and-white. You can't just say "expedite the process if you think they're innocent," because the process is HOW you determine IF THEY ARE innocent.

EDIT: Anyone who's as clearly innocent as you seem to think probably wouldn't be investigated for academic fraud in the first place.
 
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koonja

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"Guilty" and "innocent" aren't anywhere near that black-and-white. You can't just say "expedite the process if you think they're innocent," because the process is HOW you determine IF THEY ARE innocent.

Once the investigation is over and you have ALL info that's coming out, and you have a good idea of who is/isn't going to be found not guilty (which we do), I firmly believe that you can expedite the decision/hearing.

Or if not, should be able to (change process).

I'm not going to argue about this all day, but I firmly believe this.
 

kmoose

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I was mentioning KVR because looks like he may be (with the exception of DD) the only potential pro player there and this would definately affect his draft stock whether innocent or guilty. DD would be perceived as a problem person since this would be a second incident within a year.

Just saying it should be done by now. Just pisses me off because these bowtie geeks are happy to cash their paychecks that ND football helps keep coming but they want to harpoon the players at any opportunity. And am I wrong to say that I thought I saw that Admin clown that was so tough on ND players still with the university?

The sign says, "God, Country, Notre Dame"... It does NOT say, "God, Country, Notre Dame, unless some shmucks on an internet message board are pissed off and think I have been wronged. Then, fvck everyone else but me!"
 

wizards8507

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Once the investigation is over and you have ALL info that's coming out, and you have a good idea of who is/isn't going to be found not guilty (which we do), I firmly believe that you can expedite the decision/hearing.
Koon, that's how it is. If there's no evidence of guilt, they abandon the investigation and it doesn't even GO to the hearing. That's 100% the case (remember, I was an ND student who went through one of these myself). The fact that they still need the hearing means that there IS evidence to be presented and that they need a vote to determine guilt.

Also, who's this mythical "who"? The professors or administrators have the ability to abandon the investigation if it turns out "oops, we were wrong." After that, it goes to committee. Where are you getting this idea that they're obviously innocent in the first place?
 

Blaise

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I am frustrated with this process... However, it is this process why I love this school so much... They treat athletes like students.. No favoritism... No special Dorms... If they do something wrong, they feel same wrath as regular student.. Doesn't matter if its Golson, a basketball player or a chess geek...
Just wish it would of been decided by now, but rather they just get it right
 

Irish Insanity

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Koon, that's how it is. If there's no evidence of guilt, they abandon the investigation and it doesn't even GO to the hearing. That's 100% the case (remember, I was an ND student who went through one of these myself). The fact that they still need the hearing means that there IS evidence to be presented and that they need a vote to determine guilt.

Also, who's this mythical "who"? The professors or administrators have the ability to abandon the investigation if it turns out "oops, we were wrong." After that, it goes to committee. Where are you getting this idea that they're obviously innocent in the first place?

That's what I was asking in my last post. If there wasn't enough evidence of wrongdoing, would they even need to go to a panel.
 

wizards8507

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That's what I was asking in my last post. If there wasn't enough evidence of wrongdoing, would they even need to go to a panel.

2. The chair of the Honesty Committee, in consultation with the faculty member assigned to investigate the report (if this person is different from the chair), has the authority to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant an Honesty Committee hearing. A hearing is warranted whenever there is reason to believe that academic dishonesty (whether major or minor) might have occurred. After reviewing the case, the chair of the Honesty Committee has two options:

a) He or she may decide that there is not sufficient evidence of major or minor academic dishonesty to warrant a hearing. If the chair reaches this decision, he or she shall so notify the student suspected of a violation, the instructor and the reporting student(s) (if any), and shall destroy all records related to the case.

b) The chair may decide that a hearing would be warranted. If the report of a possible violation was submitted by anyone other than the instructor in the course, the chair informs the instructor both of the report and of the evidence and asks the instructor if he or she wishes to contact the student to see if the case can be settled via an Honor Code Violation Report (see V.D. above). If the instructor declines to do so, the chair will then write a letter to the student(s) suspected of the violation. The letter shall describe the possible violation, state the known evidence (including witnesses and documents involved, if any), and state the time and place of the hearing. The letter shall also inform the student(s) under suspicion that he or she can bring to the hearing members of the University community for support and/or to serve as witnesses.
 

PANDFAN

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Don't like the delay by ND. Extending does not appear fair, rather acting in a rational manner quickly given the data does.</p>— Tom Mendoza (@TomMendozaTalks) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks/statuses/506847096079544321">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>BK says no change on suspended 5. Hard to understand why they can't deliver decision by now.</p>— Tom Mendoza (@TomMendozaTalks) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks/statuses/506844685781204992">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is the crux of it. There is a process. The process must be followed. But all evidence gathering was done last week.

If these people can't be bothered to set up hearings last Friday... much less this Monday, Tuesday, etc. that's really ridiculous.
 

PANDFAN

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks">@TomMendozaTalks</a> School started Tuesday. Honor Code has 7-day window for appeals. That (likely) ends today. <a href="http://t.co/UyuDVqof7x">http://t.co/UyuDVqof7x</a></p>— Keith Arnold (@KeithArnold) <a href="https://twitter.com/KeithArnold/statuses/506848291041312769">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

IrishLion

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What are the chances that some big dog in the admin sees that and says, "oh shit, Mendoza is weighing in, maybe we should look at his opinion and do something" ?

Is that something that carries no weight, or something the university might pause at?

Not starting a debate on right/wrong/influence/university code, just asking about the weight Mendoza might actually have.
 

PANDFAN

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What are the chances that some big dog in the admin sees that and says, "oh shit, Mendoza is weighing in, maybe we should look at his opinion and do something" ?

Is that something that carries no weight, or something the university might pause at?

Not starting a debate on right/wrong/influence/university code, just asking about the weight Mendoza might actually have.

his dad would have if any, not him...just my .02
 

mkg77

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Don't like the delay by ND. Extending does not appear fair, rather acting in a rational manner quickly given the data does.</p>— Tom Mendoza (@TomMendozaTalks) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks/statuses/506847096079544321">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Waiting for someone to lecture us on how Tom Mendoza just doesn't understand Notre Dame ...
 

Irish Insanity

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2. The chair of the Honesty Committee, in consultation with the faculty member assigned to investigate the report (if this person is different from the chair), has the authority to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant an Honesty Committee hearing. A hearing is warranted whenever there is reason to believe that academic dishonesty (whether major or minor) might have occurred. After reviewing the case, the chair of the Honesty Committee has two options:

a) He or she may decide that there is not sufficient evidence of major or minor academic dishonesty to warrant a hearing. If the chair reaches this decision, he or she shall so notify the student suspected of a violation, the instructor and the reporting student(s) (if any), and shall destroy all records related to the case.

b) The chair may decide that a hearing would be warranted. If the report of a possible violation was submitted by anyone other than the instructor in the course, the chair informs the instructor both of the report and of the evidence and asks the instructor if he or she wishes to contact the student to see if the case can be settled via an Honor Code Violation Report (see V.D. above). If the instructor declines to do so, the chair will then write a letter to the student(s) suspected of the violation. The letter shall describe the possible violation, state the known evidence (including witnesses and documents involved, if any), and state the time and place of the hearing. The letter shall also inform the student(s) under suspicion that he or she can bring to the hearing members of the University community for support and/or to serve as witnesses.

Thanks. I'll rep you when I get to a computer
 

JughedJones

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What are the chances that some big dog in the admin sees that and says, "oh shit, Mendoza is weighing in, maybe we should look at his opinion and do something" ?

Is that something that carries no weight, or something the university might pause at?

Not starting a debate on right/wrong/influence/university code, just asking about the weight Mendoza might actually have.

Just a guess, but I would assume a guy like that demanding action would have to pull at least a little weight, right?
 

IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks">@TomMendozaTalks</a> School started Tuesday. Honor Code has 7-day window for appeals. That (likely) ends today. <a href="http://t.co/UyuDVqof7x">http://t.co/UyuDVqof7x</a></p>— Keith Arnold (@KeithArnold) <a href="https://twitter.com/KeithArnold/statuses/506848291041312769">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Keith has it twisted... you don't have appeals until initial hearings are done. Per reports, no initial hearings have happened.
 

PANDFAN

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Who's this Mendoza guy and why do we care?

images
 
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