'15 IN ILB/OLB Asmar Bilal (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[Irish#1]

If you feel like you are being outsold, just work harder. Totally agree. I do believe this staff operates with a level of smugness that irritates me in situations like this. Sometimes it works out and others it doesn't but they continue to do it.

I'm not sure how you can say this if you're not intimately involved in the recruiting. I understand your frustration, but we're not involved in any conversations or phone calls.

 

[gkIrish]

Seems like maybe we decide that we want to pitch X recruit in Y way. We figure out that Y isn't working way too late in the game and by the time we get to Z, the recruit has moved on.

 

[dang227]

College football is all about recruiting and there is no way a 7-6 Michigan team should be able to outsell ND. Notre Dame has suffered in the past when staffs have rested on their laurels and we're lazy in recruiting. Pitching "we are ND so you should come here" doesn't work anymore. We need to bust our asses in recruiting considering we aren't in a talent rich state and the weather blows.

 

[Irishman77]

Dude you are out of your mind if you think the staff is lazy. We got 1% of Intel on the situation. Having the admission standards we have and landing top 10 classes is anything but lazy. I understand you want Asmar, but maybe just maybe he likes Michigan more. To us that is crazy, but that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. We are in great shape at the Will linebacker and prop ably still have a real shot of getting Bilal on NSD if there is room.

For all we know we may be in great shape for 5 others and have cooled a bit on him which may seem "lazy" to outsiders like us.

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm not sure how you can say this if you're not intimately involved in the recruiting. I understand your frustration, but we're not involved in any conversations or phone calls.

You don't have to agree with it. I read a lot about this stuff and this isn't the first time this has came up. This is an exceptional student, an exceptional football player, and in our backyard. Nobody should be recruiting this kid harder. It's as simple as that. The only reason you wouldn't, is if you believe that you don't have to. I equate that to some level of arrogance. Could there be something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about absolutely. However, the best ND insider that I've found (TJ) admitted that we got outsold. Selling is just as much about work and being prepared as it is anything else. Stl's quote is a good one.

 

[connect the dots]

Wake up about the present staff and recruiting. What Notre Dame staff has devoted more time and attention to recruiting than Brian Kelly and his staff? Has made more offers, more outlandish offers to circumspect players? Look at where this staff has gone looking for players - Immokalee, Florida, Allen, South Oak Cliff, Texas, Fresno, California, Warren Central. What previous staff could have gotten Mekhi Brown(Alabama verbal) and Bryon Cowart on campus for summer visits? Impressionable visits - Cowart commented at the Opening that visiting the Bascilica of the Sacred Heart was an extraordinary event in his life. Out worked? What previous staff has spent more energy in recruitment?

 

[Wild Bill]

You don't have to agree with it. I read a lot about this stuff and this isn't the first time this has came up. This is an exceptional student, an exceptional football player, and in our backyard. Nobody should be recruiting this kid harder. It's as simple as that. The only reason you wouldn't, is if you believe that you don't have to. I equate that to some level of arrogance. Could there be something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about absolutely. However, the best ND insider that I've found (TJ) admitted that we got outsold. Selling is just as much about work and being prepared as it is anything else. Stl's quote is a good one.

We got outsold meaning Michigan's staff outworked our staff or Michigan's staff out-bullshitted our staff?

Just asking...I really don't know the context of being "outsold".

 

[Rack Em]

We got outsold meaning Michigan's staff outworked our staff or Michigan's staff out-bullshitted our staff?

Just asking...I really don't know the context of being "outsold".

Doesn't matter.

You don't get outworked for a kid this talented in your backyard. Unacceptable.

You don't get outsold for a kid this talented in your backyard. That just means you let yourself get outworked. Also unacceptable.

That's what Lucci is saying and I agree with it.

Edit: If you're getting outbullshitted for a kid in your backyard, then you're still getting outworked.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I'm going to laugh at you all if Bilal selects the Irish.

 

[Ironman8]

How many Michigan or Ohio guys have we beaten Michigan, Michigan State and OSU for?

I'm not saying I wouldn't be disappointed if we don't get Bilal, but we have protected Indiana wayyyy better than they have protected their states lately.

 

[Rack Em]

How many Michigan or Ohio guys have we beaten Michigan, Michigan State and OSU for?

I'm not saying I wouldn't be disappointed if we don't get Bilal, but we have protected Indiana wayyyy better than they have protected their states lately.

To be fair, those states produce more talent than Indiana on the whole.

 

[NDBoiler]

There is no such thing as a perfect recruiter. But I do think this staff doesn't hustle as hard as when they first got to South Bend, but I also think that's by design in many respects.

If the bolded is true, that is extremely concerning to me as a fan. I hope that is not the case.

 

[Rack Em]

If the bolded is true, that is extremely concerning to me as a fan. I hope that is not the case.

I think he means that the staff is doing a better job of targeting "fits" early on in the process and staying on them vs. going all out on a D'Shawn Hand type that would be a great player, but not a good cultural fit.

Work smarter, not more.

 

[IrishLax]

If the bolded is true, that is extremely concerning to me as a fan. I hope that is not the case.

Well, in '11 and '12 the staff hustled HARD. They went after big fish and did not quit. Sometime around the conclusions of the Tee Shephard and Aaron Lynch sagas they realized this kind of recruiting was not going to work. They targeted a different kind of guy in '13 and '14, and moved more and more towards "if a kid doesn't want to be here, then they don't want to be here."

With that said, you have to question if a more passive approach is entirely a good idea. How do you combat neg recruiting? How do you show serious interest in a player to make sure they know you want them?

Guys like Cooks and Alford have it figured out. They know how to give attention, sell the school, and most importantly build relationships. Denbrock doesn't have the same recruiting role in his new job. I have no clue how BVG is, but I know he isn't as outright lazy/crazy as Diaco. Kelly is great but there are a lot of recruits he doesn't put in much time with... he likes to be a closer.

The biggest issue I see is with the "regional" approach to things instead of positional. West coast QBs having the safeties coach are their primary contact because that's his region makes no sense to me. I think some kids basically fall through the cracks on account of our overall national approach.

 

[Ironman8]

To be fair, those states produce more talent than Indiana on the whole.

And we have won a higher percentage of head to head battles for Indiana kids who have attracted interest from the big Midwest powers then they have against us.

What Indiana player have we wanted badly that got away to one of them? Maybe David Perkins if you can even count him? We beat at least 2 out of 3 of the big guys for Gunner Kiel, Sheldon Day, Jaylon Smith, and Josh Barajas.

We've also had some nice OH wins in Shaun Crawford, Elijah Taylor, Nick Coleman (OSU was going to offer at their camp evidently) Jimmy Byrne, Daniel Cage, DeShone Kizer, and Malik Zaire and a couple MI wins in Steve Elmer and Jhonathon Williams. Throw in other Midwest neutral state wins like Miles Boykin, Nyles Morgan, Nic Weishar, Colin McGovern, James Onwaulu, and Davaris Daniels and we have done pretty well against those guys head to head recently.

I agree that it would be a swing and a miss on ND's recruiting behalf if they miss on Bilal, but he would be one of a few key misses that we have had in comparison to a good amount of big wins (not to mention taking two younger brothers of Urban players away from him, including the most talented player on our 2014 roster as well as a key younger brother from Michigan).

The wins of Jaylon, Day, Daniels, Barajas, Crawford, Elmer, Zaire, McGovern / Byrne, Taylor and Boykin mean and are going to mean a lot more than some of the key losses, including Bilal if he does in fact chose Michigan over us. The only head to head losses to the Midwest three that have really disappointed me are Hilliard, Dante Booker, Ezekial Elliott, and Michael Ferns.

 

[NDBoiler]

Well, in '11 and '12 the staff hustled HARD. They went after big fish and did not quit. Sometime around the conclusions of the Tee Shephard and Aaron Lynch sagas they realized this kind of recruiting was not going to work. They targeted a different kind of guy in '13 and '14, and moved more and more towards "if a kid doesn't want to be here, then they don't want to be here."

With that said, you have to question if a more passive approach is entirely a good idea. How do you combat neg recruiting? How do you show serious interest in a player to make sure they know you want them?

Guys like Cooks and Alford have it figured out. They know how to give attention, sell the school, and most importantly build relationships. Denbrock doesn't have the same recruiting role in his new job. I have no clue how BVG is, but I know he isn't as outright lazy/crazy as Diaco. Kelly is great but there are a lot of recruits he doesn't put in much time with... he likes to be a closer.

The biggest issue I see is with the "regional" approach to things instead of positional. West coast QBs having the safeties coach are their primary contact because that's his region makes no sense to me. I think some kids basically fall through the cracks on account of our overall national approach.

That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Irish#1]

You don't have to agree with it. I read a lot about this stuff and this isn't the first time this has came up. This is an exceptional student, an exceptional football player, and in our backyard. Nobody should be recruiting this kid harder. It's as simple as that. The only reason you wouldn't, is if you believe that you don't have to. I equate that to some level of arrogance. Could there be something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about absolutely. However, the best ND insider that I've found (TJ) admitted that we got outsold. Selling is just as much about work and being prepared as it is anything else. Stl's quote is a good one.

Me arrogant because I disagree? LOL If I offended you, please accept my apology. I've always appreciated what you post, but the fact of the matter is you, me, TJ, Loy or anyone else don't really know if we're not on staff. Being "outworked" is one of those intangible things that's not black and white. Not saying it happened, but if Hoke offered him a car, is that being outworked because we didn't? The guys that write about this stuff have connections for sure. However, I have to believe that BK has a policy on recruiting and what can and can't be leaked and the repercussions for ignoring the rules can have a serious repercussion. I have faith the staff is doing their best.

 

[Irish#1]

Well, in '11 and '12 the staff hustled HARD. They went after big fish and did not quit. Sometime around the conclusions of the Tee Shephard and Aaron Lynch sagas they realized this kind of recruiting was not going to work. They targeted a different kind of guy in '13 and '14, and moved more and more towards "if a kid doesn't want to be here, then they don't want to be here."

With that said, you have to question if a more passive approach is entirely a good idea. How do you combat neg recruiting? How do you show serious interest in a player to make sure they know you want them?

Guys like Cooks and Alford have it figured out. They know how to give attention, sell the school, and most importantly build relationships. Denbrock doesn't have the same recruiting role in his new job. I have no clue how BVG is, but I know he isn't as outright lazy/crazy as Diaco. Kelly is great but there are a lot of recruits he doesn't put in much time with... he likes to be a closer.

The biggest issue I see is with the "regional" approach to things instead of positional. West coast QBs having the safeties coach are their primary contact because that's his region makes no sense to me. I think some kids basically fall through the cracks on account of our overall national approach.

How do we know we're more passive? Because we may not target more higher risk players? There's no magic in combating negative recruiting. I have to believe the staff asks kids if they have any concerns and address them, or they bring up stats to counter things they know are being said. How do other schools combat our graduation rates? Recruiting nationally certainly makes it more difficult and probably does result in some falling through the cracks.

 

[Bluto]

"Selling" isn't necessarily the same as "working hard". Maybe Van Gorder should have torn his shirt off and broke into tears. Lol.

 

[Luckylucci]

Me arrogant because I disagree? LOL If I offended you, please accept my apology. I've always appreciated what you post, but the fact of the matter is you, me, TJ, Loy or anyone else don't really know if we're not on staff. Being "outworked" is one of those intangible things that's not black and white. Not saying it happened, but if Hoke offered him a car, is that being outworked because we didn't? The guys that write about this stuff have connections for sure. However, I have to believe that BK has a policy on recruiting and what can and can't be leaked and the repercussions for ignoring the rules can have a serious repercussion. I have faith the staff is doing their best.

I was referring to the staff. Misunderstanding, had nothing to do with you personally

 

[tko]

How's your AssMar?

 

[Wild Bill]

Doesn't matter.

You don't get outworked for a kid this talented in your backyard. Unacceptable.

You don't get outsold for a kid this talented in your backyard. That just means you let yourself get outworked. Also unacceptable.

That's what Lucci is saying and I agree with it.

Edit: If you're getting outbullshitted for a kid in your backyard, then you're still getting outworked.

There's a distinction, in my opinion.

Hope we get back into this one.

 

[IrishLax]

How do we know we're more passive? Because we may not target more higher risk players? There's no magic in combating negative recruiting. I have to believe the staff asks kids if they have any concerns and address them, or they bring up stats to counter things they know are being said. How do other schools combat our graduation rates? Recruiting nationally certainly makes it more difficult and probably does result in some falling through the cracks.

From what I know of the recruitments of Barnett, Hilliard, Barajas, and Coney I'd definitely characterize our style as passive vs. pressure.

After Barnett committed, we weren't aggressively fending off other schools and marking our territory. We didn't do a good job of continuing to recruit/sell him and I don't really think our big wigs did a great job of developing a relationship over the 6+ months he was committed. And once things got rocky, we didn't fight and claw to keep him.

Hilliard we didn't turn up the heat on until late. We were always actively recruiting him, but Meyer put on the full court press well before we did and did a better job of actively building relationships with those around Justin before we did. And Meyer neg recruited like a champ... the story of some of the stuff he pitched to Harris/Cornell/Hilliard about Michigan is hilarious. And you better believe he didn't treat ND with kid gloves.

Barajas we treated passively and PSU stole him with aggressive recruiting despite him being an "ND lock"... after that we barely followed up with contact. Were it not for Barajas' heart truly being at ND we don't get him back.

With Coney, we could've tried hard to get him to commit and probably could've secured a pledge. But we chose to instead make sure he took his time and came to the best decision for him. Smart? Probably. I like this approach, personally. But now we're in a dog fight.

All of these are examples of passive recruiting where we let the kid comfortably make the best decision for them. Good news? The kids that sign up are generally going to have a better attrition rate. Bad news? You'll miss on some kids. But it's a big departure from how we approached Tee, Darby, Lynch, etc. in the beginning of Kelly's tenure.

 

[stlnd01]

Good news? The kids that sign up are generally going to have a better attrition rate. Bad news? You'll miss on some kids. But it's a big departure from how we approached Tee, Darby, Lynch, etc. in the beginning of Kelly's tenure.

You could say we learned the lesson of trying to fit talented but square pegs into round holes, and that in the long run we'll have more better fits and fewer transfers. Or you could say we're not landing as many elite recruits and our on-field results will suffer for it. I guess time will tell which viewpoint is the right one.

The thing that's frustrating with Bilal (if he indeed goes to Michigan) and with Hilliard, too, is that they weren't square pegs. They by all accounts seem to be great fits with Notre Dame geographically, culturally, academically. And we lose them to more aggressive salesmen.
I don't really mind losing a Florida kid to Florida or an LA kid to USC. But losing an Indiana kid to Michigan kind of stinks.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Difficult when you lose one in your backyard regardless of the reasons. But recruiting is first and foremost about relationships. And any recruiter who isn't cultivating these relationships will likely end up with limited success. Don't know if that is the case here, but chalk it up as a lesson learned if so and keep driving forward. I would caution letting Bilal go completely as UM could pull a 7-5 type season and can Brady. If the Irish keep close, they may be able to get Bilal on the backside of all that.

 

[Grahambo]

'15 IN ILB/OLB Asmar Bilal (Offer)

'15 IN ILB/OLB Asmar Bilal (Offer)

Win and they will come. Win in style and more will come. Sometimes your current roster is the best recruiting tool.

 

[BGIF]

Win and they will come. Win in style and more will come. Sometimes your current roster is the best recruiting tool.

Hoke's UM record for the past 3 seasons is 11-2, 8-5, 7-6, for 26-13 while Kelly and ND are 8-5, 12-1, 9-4, for 29-10 over the same period.

85% of Hoke's UM lossses have occurred in the past two seasons allowing ND to regain College Football's All-Time Winningest Percentage Title.

"Win and they will come," does not seem to be a factor in Bilal's reasoning.

 

[Xander]

I'm going to laugh at you all if Bilal selects the Irish.

I certainly hope you're laughing, but it's not looking all that rosy in this case.

 

[rtrn2glory]

really possibly we could flip him with a good year even if he bolts for ann arbor.

as much as we all despise their program i really do think that their staff appeals very well to high school kids and coaches. been to their clinic twice and they're always very welcoming and willing to help. didn't get the same vibe from my experience at ND, but it could have been just me.

i know this has little to do with this recruitment, but i thought it was worth noting that i think the guys up north are pretty good at selling their product too regardless of the value it currently holds.

 

[TheChosen1]

It's a long way until February.