Notre Dame Switching to UnderArmour

[wizards8507]

I went down this rabbit hole in response to koon and others who suggested that ND should express Catholicism only "behind closed doors."

It sounds bad when you put it like that, lol.

I didn't put it like that, you did.

Doing the religious stuff behind closed doors is one thing, but directly representing a religion (and being the 1st to do so) on national TV would be very different for me if I was a non-believer.

 

[tko]

A UA tunic, I like it.

Better yet, how awesome would a UA ND snuggie be?

I want a ND Swagga Suit with a giant cross on the back.

 

[NDohio]

It sounds bad when you put it like that, lol. I simply think our students/athletes shouldn't be forced to wear a logo of one religion or another, and I think if we did that, it would do more harm than good to the football team.

Having buildings symbolic of religion and forcing our players to individually sport a religious logo are very different, IMO.

Yet we forced them to wear an Adidas logo for all those years and still did OK!

 

[BobbyMac]

Love x1000 Well played sir!

Though shall not use the Lord's name in vain... Didn't say anything about his image, if that was Commandment 11-15, Mel was right and Moses dropped the 3rd tablet.

I may have found my Avatar.... if you wouldn't mind.

 

[koonja]

I didn't put it like that, you did.

Good point. I think you know what I mean though.

 

[gkIrish]

Love x1000 Well played sir!

Though shall not use the Lord's name in vain... Didn't say anything about his image, if that was Commandment 11-15, Mel was right and Moses dropped the 3rd tablet.

I may have found my Avatar.... if you wouldn't mind.

Go for it haha

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I didn't read his post until now, but I disagree with him.

To be clear, I doubt that any of our players would have a problem with the small helmet sticker I proposed two pages ago; I wasn't addressing the proposed Shamrock-series alt. uni prominently featuring a crucifix. I can conceive of several good reasons ND probably wouldn't do such a thing, and none of them involve keeping our Catholic character "behind closed doors".

 

[koonja]

To be clear, I doubt that any of our players would have a problem with the small helmet sticker I proposed two pages ago; I wasn't addressing the proposed Shamrock-series alt. uni prominently featuring a crucifix. I can conceive of several good reasons ND probably wouldn't do such a thing, and none of them involve keeping our Catholic character "behind closed doors".

Can we forgive the 'behind closed doors' comment? It was a poor choice of words and I'm at work and firing away so I didn't have time to make a perfect post.

I simply do not think ND should ever ask its athletes to have to put a religious icon of any sort on their gear, and we can call that whatever we want, but 'behind closed doors' was a bad way to put it.

 

[wizards8507]

I simply do not think ND should ever ask its athletes to have to put a religious icon of any sort on their gear.

What do you think "Notre Dame" means?

 

[koonja]

What do you think "Notre Dame" means?

Sorry, I'll refrase to say 'blatant, unsubtle, universally recognized religious symbol'.

I'm done here. Seems like one of those where I say something a lot of people agree with, and end I up at the bottom of the pile, lol.

 

[gkIrish]

"Comfortable" might need to be expanded upon, but I'd play at Notre Dame in a heartbeat and I'm rather atheist.

I think a cross would be tacky. It's football.

Good thing you live in Ohio, bro.

Michigan mayor says giving atheists equal treatment is like favoring the Nazis or the KKK

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Can we forgive the 'behind closed doors' comment? It was a poor choice of words and I'm at work and firing away so I didn't have time to make a perfect post.

That wasn't a shot at you, Jake. I was simply pointing out that there are a lot of good arguments against doing such a thing that don't involve the political correctness angle you seem to be emphasizing; which is also the part of your argument that is rubbing some of our Christian members the wrong way.

 

[BobbyMac]

What do you think "Notre Dame" means?

Wizard.... I think they have converted me.

I will now root for the team I'll call South Bend University located by the banks of the newly named Hoosier River in the newly named Studebacker County. and I will change the name to something less offensive... The Workin' Polish since Fightin' is plain wrong and Polish are the established locals. I considered the Barn Raisin' Amish but found that far too radical of an idea.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Sorry, I'll refrase to say 'blatant, unsubtle, universally recognized religious symbol'.

I'm done here. Seems like one of those where I say something a lot of people agree with, and end I up at the bottom of the pile, lol.

I get what you are saying. There is just something different about wearing a badge of religion, rather than going to church before a game or walking by the mural. Not saying I agree or disagree with you in any way, but I see what you are trying to say.

 

[BobbyMac]

I get what you are saying. There is just something different about wearing a badge of religion, rather than going to church before a game or walking by the mural. Not saying I agree or disagree with you in any way, but I see what you are trying to say.

But to Wizard's point.... The name Notre Dame that is on their gear is just as much a badge of religion as a cross...as is the Word of Life mural that they play underneath.

There is nothing unreligious about Notre Dame... except for a portion of the Subway Alumni who have no desire to know what makes Notre Dame... Notre Dame.

.

 

[greyhammer90]

I don't like it. It helps further the unpleasant stereotype of delusional ND fans who think ND is playing for God or that ND is Gods team.

And also I know there are other smaller Christian schools that have crosses on their uniforms, but I don't like the uncomfortable implication this creates for Christians on the other team.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Thank you <a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball">@ndfootball</a> for the sweet gifts. You guys sure know how to spoil me. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NDlove?src=hash">#NDlove</a> <a href="http://t.co/HlxMZ0ftfd">http://t.co/HlxMZ0ftfd</a></p>— MichaelFloyd (@MichaelMFloyd) <a href="https://twitter.com/MichaelMFloyd/statuses/492710717682749440">July 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[BobbyMac]

I don't like it. It helps further the unpleasant stereotype of delusional ND fans who think ND is playing for God or that ND is Gods team.

And also I know there are other smaller Christian schools that have crosses on their uniforms, but I don't like the uncomfortable implication this creates for Christians on the other team.

So you are worried that a Christian on one team would feel uncomfortable seeing a cross on another team's uniform? Can you please explain that?


Any religious institution, Notre Dame in this case, would strive to conduct itself in a manner which would bring respect and admiration for institution and ultimately God (it)self. I'm sure the school leadership would go on record that it would be their intention for ND football to bring "Glory to / for God".


I haven't run into these delusional religious fans who believe ND is God's sword in the game of college football but I do know there are many who are proud of the work ND does for the church.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Notre Dame is the first major university to receive a Defy G5 Pro Kit!
(Confirmed by Paul <a href="https://twitter.com/DEFYPRODUCTS">@DEFYPRODUCTS</a> ). <a href="http://t.co/oeHA1Zpfwj">pic.twitter.com/oeHA1Zpfwj</a></p>— Notre Dame Video (@VideoND) <a href="https://twitter.com/VideoND/statuses/492717772187922432">July 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[wizards8507]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Notre Dame is the first major university to receive a Defy G5 Pro Kit!
(Confirmed by Paul <a href="https://twitter.com/DEFYPRODUCTS">@DEFYPRODUCTS</a> ). <a href="http://t.co/oeHA1Zpfwj">pic.twitter.com/oeHA1Zpfwj</a></p>— Notre Dame Video (@VideoND) <a href="https://twitter.com/VideoND/statuses/492717772187922432">July 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Wtf is that thing?

 

[PANDFAN]

Wtf is that thing?

The DEFY G5 Pro Kit is geared toward our pro level cinematographer using up to a 6 pound camera and lens combination. This kit is comprised of everything you need to include on your next shoot. The G5 Pro Kit comes with the DEFY G5 stabilizer, Throttle (for single operator pan/tilt), Radio Controller (for second operator pan/tilt), Atomos Ninja Blade, Monitor Mount, and our industry exclusive Power Bar, all packed in a custom Pelican Case with laser cut foam.

The DEFY G5 features a full 3-axis control with three modes of operation: Slow Pan, Fast Pan, and Accessory Control. Product specific technical support provided via phone and email.

Holds camera and lens combinations up to 6lbs
3 modes of operation: Slow Pan, Fast Pan, Accessory Control
3 Axis stabilization
Quick release camera plate

costs 5,500

 

[Cackalacky]

So you are worried that a Christian on one team would feel uncomfortable seeing a cross on another team's uniform? Can you please explain that?


Any religious institution, Notre Dame in this case, would strive to conduct itself in a manner which would bring respect and admiration for institution and ultimately God (it)self. I'm sure the school leadership would go on record that it would be their intention for ND football to bring "Glory to / for God".


I haven't run into these delusional religious fans who believe ND is God's sword in the game of college football but I do know there are many who are proud of the work ND does for the church.

For all these words you just typed, you clearly are misunderstanding the major point everyone is making, or obfuscating it on purpose. I will try to help hopefully. Here is an interpretation of Catholicism from a Southern Baptist preacher in Georgia, by far the largest "denomination" in the South. This is very common and most elite kids from the south are brought up like this, so kids being recruited by ND for football will be bombarded with opinions like this by coaches, friends, family and media.....its not hard to understand how a person such as Byron Cowart who actually did inspect ND in person ws shocked at how open ND was....

ALPHARETTA, Ga. (BP)--As the world observes the election of the first new pope of the Roman Catholic Church in more than 25 years, many Baptists may be thinking through how Catholic beliefs differ from their own.

“The Catholic understanding of God is the same as the Trinitarian view of God held by evangelicals,” said Bill Gordon, an associate with the North American Mission Board’s interfaith evangelism team and author of NAMB’s overview of the faith, Roman Catholicism Belief Bulletin.

“The Jesus of Catholicism is the same Jesus we worship,” continued Gordon, a Southern Baptist authority on Catholicism. “He is the second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man, who died on the cross and rose again from the dead.”

Gordon said, however, that while Catholics and Southern Baptists alike are ardent defenders of the sanctity of human life and the institution of marriage between one man and one woman, the two groups hold starkly different beliefs about the key doctrine of eternal salvation.

“Catholics will agree that you have to be saved by the grace of God that comes through Jesus Christ,” Gordon said. “Catholicism, however, teaches that one receives God’s grace through the church’s sacraments. Southern Baptists believe, according to Scripture, that we receive God’s grace solely through faith in Jesus Christ, by faith alone.

“Catholics also have a sacramental understanding of how God’s grace is dispensed,” Gordon explained. “To receive the grace of God and eternal salvation, the Catholic Church teaches that you have to receive the sacraments from their church. Southern Baptists believe that the sacraments are contrary to the teaching of the Bible and that grace is received directly from God. We don’t have to go through an intermediary. The church doesn’t control God’s storehouse of grace. We receive all the grace we need directly from God when we believe in Jesus Christ.”

Gordon said the Catholic Church also distinguishes between the seriousness of various sins. Murder, adultery, stealing and lying are called mortal sins which must be confessed to a priest in order to receive forgiveness. Other less serious sins, known as venial sins, according to Catholicism, can be atoned for after death in a place called purgatory.

According to the Bible, all sins are serious, and any sin will condemn a person to hell apart from the grace of God which comes from faith in Jesus Christ, Gordon said.

“Traditionally, Catholics have interpreted purgatory as a place of punishment where a person is purified.” Gordon said. “According to Catholic theology, everyone in purgatory will eventually be purified of the taint of sin and make it into heaven.”

Mike Licona, director of NAMB’s interfaith evangelism team, said the Apostle Paul’s teaching in Philippians that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” contradicts the Catholic concept of purgatory.

“Christ’s atoning sacrifice covers all our sins -- past, present and future,” Licona said.

Gordon said the differences in beliefs about eternal salvation between Southern Baptists and Catholics can be attributed in large part to each denomination’s view of Scripture.

Catholicism holds that its traditions are equal in authority with the teachings of Scripture. For Southern Baptists, the Bible is the sole spiritual authority.

“I do believe that it’s possible for Roman Catholics to be genuinely saved in spite of what their church teaches,” Gordon added. “It’s faith in Jesus Christ that saves, not membership in a church or denomination. Salvation is not determined by church membership. Salvation is determined by personal faith in Jesus Christ.”
--30--
For more information about the differences between Catholicism and Southern Baptist beliefs, visit 4Truth.NET and download for free the Roman Catholicism Belief Bulletin.How do Catholics & Baptists differ? - Baptist Press

Another:

“Evangelical Christians simply cannot accept the legitimacy of the papacy and must resist and reject claims of papal authority,” Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said in a podcast commentary March 14. “To do otherwise would be to compromise biblical truth and reverse the Reformation.”

There is a fundamental disagreement between Catholicism and the revivalist evangelic protestants. SO yeas, if ND were to play with a religious symbol on their uniform it very easily could be offensive and deemed derogatory by other Christians purely on religious belief.

 

[wizards8507]

There is a fundamental disagreement between Catholicism and the revivalist evangelic protestants.

While that may be true, it's not Notre Dame's responsibility to be a happy medium between Catholicism and "revivalist evangelical protestants." They're Catholic.

SO yeas, if ND were to play with a religious symbol on their uniform it very easily could be offensive and deemed derogatory by other Christians purely on religious belief.

Why? I have fundamental disagreements with LDS but wouldn't be offended if BYU wanted an overt symbol of Jesus on their uniforms. If there were a large D1 Jewish university, they could stick a Star of David on their helmet without ruffling any feathers. This whole notion that expressions of faith are offensive just because the audience doesn't happen to share the same faith is absurd. Someone displaying the symbol of a certain religion isn't offensive to me just because it's not MY religion.

 

[gkIrish]

Why? I have fundamental disagreements with LDS but wouldn't be offended if BYU wanted an overt symbol of Jesus on their uniforms. If there were a large D1 Jewish university, they could stick a Star of David on their helmet without ruffling any feathers. This whole notion that expressions of faith are offensive just because the audience doesn't happen to share the same faith is absurd. Someone displaying the symbol of a certain religion isn't offensive to me just because it's not MY religion.

It's not just the audience that doesn't share the same faith...it's many of the players on the team and about 15-20% of your student body/staff.

 

[NDohio]

For all these words you just typed, you clearly are misunderstanding the major point everyone is making, or obfuscating it on purpose. I will try to help hopefully. Here is an interpretation of Catholicism from a Southern Baptist preacher in Georgia, by far the largest "denomination" in the South. This is very common and most elite kids from the south are brought up like this, so kids being recruited by ND for football will be bombarded with opinions like this by coaches, friends, family and media.....its not hard to understand how a person such as Byron Cowart who actually did inspect ND in person ws shocked at how open ND was....



Another:


There is a fundamental disagreement between Catholicism and the revivalist evangelic protestants. SO yeas, if ND were to play with a religious symbol on their uniform it very easily could be offensive and deemed derogatory by other Christians purely on religious belief.

That's why the cross is the perfect symbol for this. All Christians see it as a symbol of their faith. In fact - those Southern Baptists would probably rejoice over the choice.

 

[Monk]

But to Wizard's point.... The name Notre Dame that is on their gear is just as much a badge of religion as a cross...as is the Word of Life mural that they play underneath.

There is nothing unreligious about Notre Dame... except for a portion of the Subway Alumni who have no desire to know what makes Notre Dame... Notre Dame.

.

If you believe that the words "Notre Dame" has as much religious meaning as a cross then this conversation will be difficult to have. Notre Dame as an institution accepts all people of all religions into their university without changing their religion. To a lot of people Notre Dame is a sign of Catholicism, but it is also a sign for education, sports, prestige, and a many other things. The cross is a sign of one thing and nobody can mistake that. I have seen many crosses at Notre Dame, but I have never seen Notre Dame on the walls of a church.

 

[Cackalacky]

That's why the cross is the perfect symbol for this. All Christians see it as a symbol of their faith. In fact - those Southern Baptists would probably rejoice over the choice.

Nope. They see you as a Catholic as fundamentally flawed because of your interpretation of the Bible and the role of the Church. They would most likely be VERY opposed to it because ND would be claiming something that is most rightfully theirs based on their deepest held beliefs.

 

[ResLife Hero]

If anybody wanted to try to win one of those gold cases, there is apparently a contest:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Tweet pic of yourself in UA <a href="https://twitter.com/FightingIrish">@FightingIrish</a> gear, caption PROTECT THIS HOUSE <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/IWILL?src=hash">#IWILL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/UAContest?src=hash">#UAContest</a> <a href="http://t.co/dpzsoJN6ON">http://t.co/dpzsoJN6ON</a> <a href="http://t.co/omlkBmtScC">pic.twitter.com/omlkBmtScC</a></p>— Under Armour (@UnderArmour) <a href="https://twitter.com/UnderArmour/statuses/492340473743556608">July 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[wizards8507]

It's not just the audience that doesn't share the same faith...it's many of the players on the team and about 15-20% of your student body/staff.

...all of whom consciously made the decision to attend or work at the University knowing full well its Catholic identity.

If you believe that the words "Notre Dame" has as much religious meaning as a cross then this conversation will be difficult to have.

If anything, "Notre Dame" is more religious than a cross. The cross is a universal symbol of all Christianity, but a devotion to "Our Lady" is much more unique to Catholicism specifically.

The cross is a sign of one thing and nobody can mistake that. I have seen many crosses at Notre Dame, but I have never seen Notre Dame on the walls of a church.

Again, do you know what "Notre Dame" means? It's not the name of a school, it's the Virgin Mary and she's in all sorts of churches.

 

[gkIrish]

...all of whom consciously made the decision to attend or work at the University knowing full well its Catholic identity.

I think this is what Koon was trying to say but I'll say it too...

I don't think it's right to force a player on a team to wear some outward profession of faith that he may not personally believe in.

As a non-Catholic student at Notre Dame, I was never forced to participate in anything religious other than the occasional professor who liked to say a prayer before class.

Football players similarly are not forced to participate in anything besides maybe attending pre-game mass. But I honestly don't think that's a requirement either if a player truly had objections to it.

But players don't have a choice as to what is on their uniform. So say ND decided to put a cross on the Shamrock Series uniform for the 2015 season...That would be wrong because all our current players would be forced to do it. Yes they knew what they were getting into to an extent when they committed to ND, but none of them signed up to be Catholic flag-bearers. Do you think Ryan Harris would have been comfortable wearing a uniform with a cross on it?