A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

I don't get the innocent vibe from Margaery in the books though. I don't think you can call her innocence legitimate, when nothing has been proven either way yet.

Every single accusation against her has been proven false. Cersei admits that everything was made up in one of her POV chapters.

She was accused and there was little evidence, but the deal with her maidenhead

Highborn maids lose their maidenhead from horses, not intercourse, and it's well-established that Margaery is a rider (even in the show).

...and the moon tea...

This is the one thing that I can't quite work out, but considering the source (Pycelle) and my lack of knowledge of Westerosi medicine (maybe moon tea has other uses?) I'll let it slide.

...and the weird stuff that goes on with her cousins/friends, I just don't get "innocent" from all that.

Nothing went on with her cousins. Those stories came out of the Blue Bard's testimony after some SERIOUS torture from Qyburn. See AFFC, Cersei IX. Cersei even picks one of the cousins to be "innocent" so that she'll be frightened into testifying against the others, making the whole think more believable.

Your last statement is one I agree with despite what I think about Book Margaery though. Regardless of scheming/no-scheming, Cersei's paranoia is a big point of character development as things try to fall apart around her, and is powerful. I can see how pure innocence from Margaery would compound that issue and make it even more effective though... I just find it hard to believe she's innocent.

I'm still very much on the fence about her role in Joffrey's murder. My best guess is that she knew but was not an active participant. I'm 100% convinced, however, of her sexual innocence.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Your last statement is one I agree with despite what I think about Book Margaery though. Regardless of scheming/no-scheming, Cersei's paranoia is a big point of character development as things try to fall apart around her, and is powerful. I can see how pure innocence from Margaery would compound that issue and make it even more effective though... I just find it hard to believe she's innocent.

She has her father's disposition.

 

[IrishLion]

Highborn maids lose their maidenhead from horses, not intercourse, and it's well-established that Margaery is a rider (even in the show).

Nothing went on with her cousins. Those stories came out of the Blue Bard's testimony after some SERIOUS torture from Qyburn. See AFFC, Cersei IX. Cersei even picks one of the cousins to be "innocent" so that she'll be frightened into testifying against the others, making the whole think more believable.

I'm still very much on the fence about her role in Joffrey's murder. My best guess is that she knew but was not an active participant. I'm 100% convinced, however, of her sexual innocence.

I'm less concerned about her sexual innocence and more concerned about her overall innocence. I just don't get the feeling when I'm reading that she's a pure, absolute anti-Cersei. I feel like she knows what's coming when her grandmother is questioning Sansa about Joffrey, and she must know what she's doing in having "secret meetings" with Tommen, and she's definitely got to be playing the game of thrones when she's fawning over the poor people... even if she's not a bad person, and even if she enjoys being a "good" person, she still has to be aware of her role in the game of thrones.

As for the maidenhead thing, I'm aware of the horseback riding tidbit that Cersei herself mentions. And the moon tea could be another planted scheme out of her control. But when you put all of the base facts together that allowed Cersei to build a "case," even with the falsified witnesses, there seems to be too much smoke for all of it to work out so "pure" and perfect.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I cared about Tommen's age difference until they showed Ser Pounce. Now I'm okay with it. I hate child actors though, so that's part of it.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Have we seen Boros in the show yet? He's going to replace the Kettleblacks I bet. I saw it posted on r/asoiaf I think. He'll be able to tell Cersei about Margaery's secret meetings and Cersei will get the idea to frame Marge from that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

At the end of ADwD, Tyrell is arguably the most powerful house in Westeros, due in no small part to High Garden's skillful political maneuvering. Margaery was a major part of that. I suppose she could simply be a sweet and gullible pawn of Olenna's; but GRRM tends not to depict such characters sympathetically. It's much more likely that she's well versed in court intrigue, and Cersei is getting beat at her own game.

 

[wizards8507]

At the end of ADwD, Tyrell is arguably the most powerful house in Westeros, due in no small part to High Garden's skillful political maneuvering. Margaery was a major part of that. I suppose she could simply be a sweet and gullible pawn of Olenna's; but GRRM tends not to depict such characters sympathetically. It's much more likely that she's well versed in court intrigue, and Cersei is getting beat at her own game.

Could be, I don't know. I just always took Margaery as very Sansa-esque. She's almost like Sansa's alternate timeline if Ned had decided to play the game of thrones rather than eff everything up by getting his head chopped off.

 

[ND NYC]

Its apparent a lot of you are a "strict constructionist", meaning: the series/movie needs to match books and if doesnt you get upset/butthurt.
i get where your coming from and understand completely.

but we should and need to keep in mind, there are so many great movies (or in this case series) that are very unlike the books on which they are based.

i think if we expect everything to be the same in terms of timing, characters, all plots being covered, we will only be "disappointed"-- especially going forward in the hbo series.

it is IMPOSSIBLE for the HBO series to "mirror" the books.
for me, i choose to appreciate both for what they are and enjoy them both on their own merits.

what we have here is that we (for perhpas the very first time) is that the movie (series) is progressing with the final chapter yet unwritten in the book, which is certainly unique.

personally i think the nights king scene at end was purposely done by directors as they were tiring of the "read the books" folks only seeming to tune in just to see how the book translated. now, in a genius stroke, they are starting to foreshadow the future books (which NO ONE knows about) and have made the series much more "must see tv" for those that read the books because "NEW things are coming".

im sure they ran it by GRRM first.

ps in my view damn near the entire Bran story from the books is being butchered by HBO, but its still plays well "on screen".

if all movies matched the books Jenny would have lived in Forrest Gump, and Hooper would have been banging Chief Brodys wife in Jaws. i could go on

 

[Bluto]

I'm kind of over the TV series and some of the characters in the books. The last two books I found myself skipping around while reading and was interested mostly in what was going on at the Wall. Now I'm finding myself fast forwarding through parts of the TV show. I like to think I'm fairly patient (I sat through Ghandi as a kid when it came out in theaters and loved it) but man, some of these plot points are taking foreeeeever to develop and even loooonger to resolve.

 

[IrishLax]

Man, this is crazy. Can't find the exact post from a year or so ago (maybe it was another thread?) but we had a big discussion about the Others vs. R'hlorr and who was actually the "good guy." And from there it kind of dovetailed into a discussion of the Citadel and Faceless Men and what "allegiances" these organizations likely had (because let's be serious, you don't just have two super powerful organizations that are 100% neutral.

I don't do as much reading on theories and such as some of you guys... so please correct me if any of this is out of date or wrong. But since that discussion, GRRM has basically come out and given explicit quotes that do more than just imply that the Others are not "bad guys." Then you have last night's episode and the theory IrishLion just posted.

One thing I postulated on awhile ago was that the Wall was raised by the Others and not man... because duh. You don't simply engineer some giant fucking ice wall in the middle of war. However, a race of magical beings who are an embodiment of everything cold could rather plausibly raise a wall in either retreat or as part of a treaty.

You consider the history of races basically saying "men = scourge" and trying to stomp them out/cut them off. The Children of the Forest crushed the Arm of Dorne and then tried to crush the neck. Some time after all that failed and the Children made a peace with the humans... and then following that, the Others came to wipe shit out.

Did the Others already have a peace and line of demarcation set up with the Children set up way before the humans showed up? I'd say yes. They probably coexisted being all magical and stuff with the Children knowing their weaknesses, etc. To me, this seems to suggest that the Others were sitting around watching stuff go to hell because of uncaring/ruthless/stupid humans and in a self-preservation move decided to move south and handle their business. At this point, you get the Long Night.

So the Last Hero seeks out the Children... and somehow he gets them to help. Maybe they view the humans as less of a threat as the Others were their enemies first... maybe it goes all the way back to the Pact... I dunno. But they give the humans the ammunition they need, and then...

So now we get to what IrishLion posted. I've always surmised the above as the likely order of events, and nothing that has happened in the show has any impact on that, but the Night's King reveal and such throws a wrinkle in here. I had always assumed that with it being a fair fight with the obsidian and such that the Others said "fuck this noise", ran home, threw up a barrier, and called it a day saying "we'll be safe and sound now."

Lion's theory says it went more like 'let's make a deal...' and that the wall was the DMZ and that it was sealed with marriage. Personally, I don't know if I really buy all of that theory, but it's definitely a lot to think about.

I still think that the Targ conquest basically set things in motion... the Others saw the dragons (remember, one Targ road a dragon all the way up to the wall) and was like "oh shit, Iran got nukes." At which point they go from DEFCON 4 to DEFCON 2. They start gathering forces, building strength, and keeping a watchful eye on everything that is going on. I think the Citadel... which is all about history and shit... understood that dragons were going to fuck up the equilibrium and almost immediately started working on some angle to bring them down. And they succeeded, delaying momentarily what's happening now.

The Others held off because the threat seemed to dwindle away. And because they're led by the Night's King, who is either the original Night's King (i.e. the human who married an Other and "gave his soul to her" possibly becoming a hybrid of sorts that we see as a White Walker), or the progeny of the original Night's King and the Other. Either way... Stark blood, and he was probably OK with keeping his finger off the trigger until dragon people started burning Starks alive. I totally buy that part of the theory and it's kind of the missing piece on why they started mobilizing and actually pushing south.

I, personally, think that if you buy the Night's Watch commanders all married Others then it actually went down something like when it was time to move on, they "retired" by marrying an Other and combing souls or something. Maybe the difference is that the Night's King said "eff that, I want to rule this place eternally" and as such broke the agreement and started that incident.

As an aside, I also firmly believe that White Walkers are not pure Others. The Others that some (like Tormund) refer to as mist or pure cold seem like ethereal beings... whereas White Walkers as we've seen them seem like maybe a human/Other hybrid.

 

[IrishLion]

Part of my initial reaction, the "at first I thought the WW was giving the baby to faceless men," was because of the NK's black garb, and also the fact that his face was hazy as he walked forward. Of course that was completely wrong and I said it more as a "wouldn't that be a stupid-awesome reveal/twist"... But don't the faceless men serve the Great Other? I thought in Arya's training as an assassin, the priest told her that they serve the god of many faces, though he is one and "Other" or something along those lines?

So even though we now know for a fact that we have seen the NK (unless somebody at HBO was too intent on their own theory [unlikely]), there still exist questions that LAX brought up about the Citadel helping take down the dragons, and the fact that Jaqen H'ghar has infiltrated the citadel. For what purpose? Do the Others and the Faceless men move against the "scourge" of man together? Even if it's not "together"?

EDIT: this Other/Faceless Men faction would also provide a reuniting of Assassin Arya, Night King Jon Snow, and Master of Wargs Bran. Ghost, Summer and Nymeria all arrive and help wreck shit on behalf of the Starks, the true Kings of Winter. Meanwhile, Sansa and Rickon converge upon Winterfell and uphold the need for human Starks in the North, holding the Southern Border of the OtherStarks in the True North as in the days of old. Winter is Coming.

 

[NDWorld247]

The producers explained why they aged the younger characters a bit. Basically, Martin was coming from a historical perspective; in the Middle Ages, kids grew up faster and teenagers were considered "adults," and they often figured into history as such; so, similarly, they figure prominently into the plots of Martin's books as adults would. But the producers felt that a young kid leading an army, as Robb does, for example, would look ridiculous onscreen, so they decided to make the younger characters a bit older so as not to shock the viewer so much.

This makes sense. After my post, I was reading a chapter on Bran and it talks about how he just turned 8 and was basically a man. I can't find the exact wording, but it made sense with your post above.

Perhaps "complaint" wasn't the right word in my original post. It was just a bit surprising for me to learn so many of the characters were much younger in the books than they were portrayed on the show.

 

[wizards8507]

I, personally, think that if you buy the Night's Watch commanders all married Others then it actually went down something like when it was time to move on, they "retired" by marrying an Other and combing souls or something.

I don't buy that. If that were the case, then the Lord Commanders (or is it Lords Commander, like Attorneys General) would probably have some kind of inside knowledge about what awaited them. Jon Snow clearly knows nothing about his future fate as an undead beastie, and LC Mormont was legitimately terrified when the wight attacked him.

As an aside, I also firmly believe that White Walkers are not pure Others. The Others that some (like Tormund) refer to as mist or pure cold seem like ethereal beings... whereas White Walkers as we've seen them seem like maybe a human/Other hybrid.

White Walkers and Others are the same thing. This has been confirmed. I don't even know if we see the term "White Walkers" in the novels. HBO decided to go with "White Walkers" instead of "Others" because there's no way to distinguish between capital-O Others and lowercase-o others, as in "other people" when you hear it spoken rather than seeing it written on the page.

We call them White Walkers in the show, more often known as the Others in the books and the reason for the change is simply that people would refer to 'the Others' and viewers who didn’t know the books would think: "Which others are we talking about? The other whats?"

That said, Others and Wights are different. The wights are reanimated dead (essentially zombies) while the Others are a different being entirely. I believe wights can be killed by fire but Others require dragonglass (and possibly dragonfire itself).

EDIT: this Other/Faceless Men faction would also provide a reuniting of Assassin Arya, Night King Jon Snow, and Master of Wargs Bran. Ghost, Summer and Nymeria all arrive and help wreck shit on behalf of the Starks, the true Kings of Winter. Meanwhile, Sansa and Rickon converge upon Winterfell and uphold the need for human Starks in the North, holding the Southern Border of the OtherStarks in the True North as in the days of old. Winter is Coming.

I always got the impression that the Faceless Men were associated with the Iron Bank more than the Others. I also think your scenario there is way too "clean" for anything GRRM would write.

 

[IrishLion]

I always got the impression that the Faceless Men were associated with the Iron Bank more than the Others. I also think your scenario there is way too "clean" for anything GRRM would write.

Absolutely it is. It was my wishful thinking scenario haha.

 

[wizards8507]

Absolutely it is. It was my wishful thinking scenario haha.

Big Stark lover, are ya?

 

[IrishLion]

Big Stark lover, are ya?

I just want justice for them, and some form of justice is on the way. It appears that Martin has no sympathy at first, and yet consider that Lady Stoneheart is still kicking, Bran and Jon toil in the North as true Starks would, Sansa is still a puppet with a fighting chance, Rickon is completely off the map until the end of book 5, and Arya is in training to be the most lethal of infiltrators and killers. Though Ned and Robb were killed and everything has looked so bleak for them at all times.... they're still hanging around. It won't be clean and tidy and feel-good, but the Starks will take their vengeance somehow.

Right now though, I think I like Jaime and Tyrion more than anyone. They've separated themselves from Tywin's cold-blooded nature and Cersei's madness, and are both working on being honorable (Tyrion was doing this from the start, though). Chances are this bodes ill for one or both of them in the end as well, but at least they're trying.

 

[wizards8507]

I just want justice for them, and some form of justice is on the way. It appears that Martin has no sympathy at first, and yet consider that Lady Stoneheart is still kicking, Bran and Jon toil in the North as true Starks would, Sansa is still a puppet with a fighting chance, Rickon is completely off the map until the end of book 5, and Arya is in training to be the most lethal of infiltrators and killers. Though Ned and Robb were killed and everything has looked so bleak for them at all times.... they're still hanging around. It won't be clean and tidy and feel-good, but the Starks will take their vengeance somehow.

Right now though, I think I like Jaime and Tyrion more than anyone. They've separated themselves from Tywin's cold-blooded nature and Cersei's madness, and are both working on being honorable (Tyrion was doing this from the start, though). Chances are this bodes ill for one or both of them in the end as well, but at least they're trying.

I'm always interested to hear who people "root for" because it varies so greatly and for all sorts of different reasons. I'm personally all-in for Stan "The Man" Baratheon.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't buy that. If that were the case, then the Lord Commanders (or is it Lords Commander, like Attorneys General) would probably have some kind of inside knowledge about what awaited them. Jon Snow clearly knows nothing about his future fate as an undead beastie, and LC Mormont was legitimately terrified when the wight attacked him.

I don't follow. I'm only talking about up to the Night's King (i.e. 13th Night's Watch commander). That's when that practice would end. Jon Snow is the 998th Lord commander, so this wouldn't have happened in thousands of years.

White Walkers and Others are the same thing. This has been confirmed. I don't even know if we see the term "White Walkers" in the novels. HBO decided to go with "White Walkers" instead of "Others" because there's no way to distinguish between capital-O Others and lowercase-o others, as in "other people" when you hear it spoken rather than seeing it written on the page.

We call them White Walkers in the show, more often known as the Others in the books and the reason for the change is simply that people would refer to 'the Others' and viewers who didn’t know the books would think: "Which others are we talking about? The other whats?"

That said, Others and Wights are different. The wights are reanimated dead (essentially zombies) while the Others are a different being entirely. I believe wights can be killed by fire but Others require dragonglass (and possibly dragonfire itself).

I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. The quote you're referring to is the equivocation of terms relative to what Westerosi are referring to. That is, it's an explanation of "when someone says White Walker or Other, are they talking about the same thing?" And the answer is "yes".

What I'm talking about is in the books/grand scheme of things how you have White Walkers (i.e. humanoid beings) and you also have many allusions to ethereal beings/gods (i.e. the "Great Other" or some descriptions of what Others that do not fit with the corporeal ones we've encountered). I'm postulating that the humanoid "White Walkers" are the result of the union between humans and an ethereal or god-like pure Other(s). That is, you get a White Walker as we've seen them by a human giving his soul over the Other(s).

Not saying this is right, but if you buy that we saw the Night's King and that he is a White Walker... and the Night's King was formerly a human who "gave his soul" to the Others... then it follows that Humans => White Walker. Same applies to how we just saw a baby get turned. So before Humans were getting turned into White Walkers... what was there? There had to be something. I'm guessing an ethereal Other(s).

 

[IrishLax]

I'm always interested to hear who people "root for" because it varies so greatly and for all sorts of different reasons. I'm personally all-in for Stan "The Man" Baratheon.

I'm a big fan of Littlefinger, Tyrion, all the Tyrells, Oberyn Martell (RIP), Arya... not sure if there are any others off the top of my head that I have a serious rooting interest for.

I despise Cersei (because of her stupid, not malice), and she's really the only person I have a strong rooting interest against. I also moderately disliked Theon and some others.

Davos and Stannis I tend to be more favorable towards than most. One strange thing I've found is that all girls I've ever talked to cannot stand Davos and Stannis.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't follow. I'm only talking about up to the Night's King (i.e. 13th Night's Watch commander). That's when that practice would end. Jon Snow is the 998th Lord commander, so this wouldn't have happened in thousands of years.

I got you. I thought you were saying this was an ongoing thing that only the LCs knew about.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm a big fan of Littlefinger, Tyrion, all the Tyrells, Oberyn Martell (RIP), Arya... not sure if there are any others off the top of my head that I have a serious rooting interest for.

I despise Cersei (because of her stupid, not malice), and she's really the only person I have a strong rooting interest against. I also moderately disliked Theon and some others.

Davos and Stannis I tend to be more favorable towards than most. One strange thing I've found is that all girls I've ever talked to cannot stand Davos and Stannis.

You LIKE Littlefinger? As in "I hope Littlefinger is successful?" Not "Littlefinger is really well written and that's so interesting"?

 

[IrishLax]

You LIKE Littlefinger? As in "I hope Littlefinger is successful?" Not "Littlefinger is really well written and that's so interesting"?

Haha I respect the hustle...

He's a guy who understands how the game is played, and is just playing it as hard as he can. I don't think he's immoral, just amoral. He's not sadistic like Ramsay, petulant like Joff, arrogant like Theon, a dumb bitch like Cersei, a pussy like Sam... most traits I dislike or view negatively he doesn't have.

He's got guile, intelligence, confidence, foresight, pragmatism... he's the Frank Underwood of Westeros. He started from the bottom and now he's the lord of Harrenhal and the Vale. Respect.

Also, he helped kill Joff. Bonus points.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm always interested to hear who people "root for" because it varies so greatly and for all sorts of different reasons. I'm personally all-in for Stan "The Man" Baratheon.

Commonly known as "Stannis the Mannis" online.

Odds of a tidy ending are very poor, so I'm not really rooting for anyone. I'm definitely rooting against Dany, though; coming around to the "mentally unstable teenage girl with three weapons of mass destruction is actually the villain" theory.

Much more interested in learning more about Martin's pantheon/ philosophy than seeing which specific characters survive.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm always interested to hear who people "root for" because it varies so greatly and for all sorts of different reasons. I'm personally all-in for Stan "The Man" Baratheon.

So, you value the line of succession above all? Or is it something else about his story?

Officially, the throne should be his by rights. If I were rooting strictly based on the war for the throne, I would probably throw my hat in for Stannis because the law is the law. But, I root more for individuals just based on what's happened to them and in hoping that they come out on top, even if that's not as part of the ruling class.

 

[wizards8507]

Odds of a tidy ending are very poor, so I'm not really rooting for anyone. I'm definitely rooting against Dany, though; coming around to the "mentally unstable teenage girl with three weapons of mass destruction is actually the villain" theory.

Right? I can't decide if Martin is in love with Dany (in a perverted old guy kind of way) or if he's setting her up so that he can kill her and drive a dagger through the dreams of the fangirls.

Me if/when Dany dies:

I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Bloodraven is legitimately hardcore evil and Bran is going the Sith master/apprentice route with him.

 

[gkIrish]

Root for:

Tyrion, Jaime, Arya, Brienne, Varys, Theon, He-Who-Knows-Nothing, Jorah Mormont, Davos, Stannis

Root against:

Cersei, Tyrells, Daenarys/Daario, most people from Dorne (minus Oberyn), Melisandre, Littlefinger

Not a fan of their storyline:

Samwell, Asha, Bran, Dornish people, Sansa, Arianne

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Officially, the throne should be his by rights. If I were rooting strictly based on the war for the throne, I would probably throw my hat in for Stannis because the law is the law.

How do you compare Stannis' claim to Dany's then? Martin's comments (and some of his prominent characters) make it pretty clear that "the law" (along with religion and wealth) only has force to the extent that people choose to follow it. Legitimate authority is an illusion in Westeros; power and the will to use it are all that really matters.

That worldview annoys the hell out of me, but such is Martin.

 

[wizards8507]

So, you value the line of succession above all? Or is it something else about his story?

How do you compare Stannis' claim to Dany's then? Martin's comments (and some of his prominent characters) make it pretty clear that "the law" (along with religion and wealth) only has force to the extent that people choose to follow it. Legitimate authority is an illusion in Westeros; power and the will to use it are all that really matters.

It doesn't have to be bloodline per se. The right of conquest is perfectly valid so I recognize the legitimacy of Robert's rebellion. However, keeping your twincest bastards on the throne just because their stepdad died and you don't feel like leaving is a pretty pussy form of "conquest."

Officially, the throne should be his by rights. If I were rooting strictly based on the war for the throne, I would probably throw my hat in for Stannis because the law is the law. But, I root more for individuals just based on what's happened to them and in hoping that they come out on top, even if that's not as part of the ruling class.

Once Tommen kicks the bucket, the throne will be Stannis' by double-rights since he's Robert's heir in truth and Tommen's heir even if Tommen and Joffrey had been legitimate. Stannis has eaten shit his entire life (Ned getting the credit for liberating Storm's End, younger brothers hoarding glory, etc.) The bigger reason I support him is because he seems to be the only one besides Jon Snow who gives a shit that demon beasties from Canada are about to cross the border and lay waste to all of Westeros (or whatever it is they plan on doing). He answered the call from The Watch, so he's the only one actually BEHAVING like a king, which in this case required a detour from the WOTFK to actually do some protecting of the realm.

EDIT: I would really really really hate if this whole saga becomes a preachy feminist thing about Myrcella and Dany. Gender is a messed up concept in that world and I have no problem if a woman comes out "on top" (heh) so-to-speak, but if GRRM beats us over the head with heavy-handed social commentary I'm going to get pretty annoyed.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Right? I can't decide if Martin is in love with Dany (in a perverted old guy kind of way) or if he's setting her up so that he can kill her and drive a dagger through the dreams of the fangirls.

I don't think Martin really likes Dany, though he's portrayed her very sympathetically throughout much of the series. I'd guess he chose to make her a PoV character so her descent into madness/ evil sneaks up on the reader and ends up much more shocking in the end.

For example, in the books we first learn that Dany crucified a bunch of slavers as she reflects on it, but she immediately dismisses the issue as "It was just/ I did it for the children". But the show makes it much more distinct-- Barristan tries to talk her out of it, but she still chooses vengeance over justice. Then we see the horror of what she's done, etc.

I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Bloodraven is legitimately hardcore evil and Bran is going the Sith master/apprentice route with him.

Doesn't seem like Martin's style. He looks like a villain, everyone fears/ spreads rumors about him, etc. Martin hates the concept of cartoonish bad guys, and seems to have a strong preference for making his evil characters much less obvious. I'd guess that Bloodraven, the Children, Coldhands, the Others, Bran, Jon, etc. are all going to end up as part of a righteous "Northern" faction opposing Dany and her dragons.

 

[wizards8507]

Doesn't seem like Martin's style. He looks like a villain, everyone fears/ spreads rumors about him, etc. Martin hates the concept of cartoonish bad guys, and seems to have a strong preference for making his evil characters much less obvious. I'd guess that Bloodraven, the Children, Coldhands, the Others, Bran, Jon, etc. are all going to end up as part of a righteous "Northern" faction opposing Dany and her dragons.

All magic comes with a price. I'm pretty sure Bran ate Jojen, and we know the Old Gods demanded human sacrifice from the First Men. That seems pretty evil to me. I don't think "ice versus fire" will be righteous versus evil, but rather one evil faction versus another, laying waste to everything in between.