A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Kaneyoufeelit]

We may have already met Howland Reed.

[lifts jaw from floor] wut?!


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[ACamp1900]

I've been waiting for something to happen with Reed for awhile... didn't GRRM actually confirm he WILL be in the final book or two, I believe I read that somewhere a long while back... Reed is like Obi Wan Kenobi at this point,... he's our only hope.


On a sidenote, I wonder what will ultimately happen with Tyrion if the Lannisters ever do 'pay their debt'... maybe Jon is ultimately his saving grace??

 

[wizards8507]

Howland Reed is the high sparrow. It is known.

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[Kaneyoufeelit]

Tonight is the Purple Wedding and I can't wait to watch the Twitter reaction

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p>Brian Kelly looks like shit. RT <a href="https://twitter.com/xmasape">@xmasape</a>: NEVER LOOKED BETTER <a href="http://t.co/P5XN3CC7Zf">pic.twitter.com/P5XN3CC7Zf</a></p>— Kelly Murphy (@Beer_Nye) <a href="https://twitter.com/Beer_Nye/statuses/455524419822452736">April 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[IrishLion]

The preview for next week makes it appear we were wrong about Margery. It seems she thought she would remain queen, the context seeming to mean the Queen of Thorns didn't tell her about the plotting after all.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I'm disappointed in how Shae's character is being portrayed.
The shock of her testimony and final betrayal now will be lessened, imo.


Also, as crazy as this may sound, I feel they really held back on Joffery's douche-ness. He was much more vicious towards Tyrion at the breakfast and wedding.

 

[IrishLion]

I was going to say that I thought they did a fantastic job with the wedding scene. Even though I knew what was coming, I was still on the edge of my seat when Joffrey was messing with Tyrion. It felt like it was going to boil over at any time. For a second, I was sincerely concerned the show was going to make a drastic change and somehow make things "worse" for Tyrion than a simple murder accusation.

 

[gkIrish]

I also thought they did a great job with the wedding. Made it look like a bunch of people could be the killer. I thought Joffrey seemed as douchey as usual. Will sort of miss seeing the character as the actor generally did a fantastic job in his portrayal of Joffrey.

One thing I don't really get is the whole Prince Oberyn being gay/bisexual thing. Was that ever an explicit part of the books? If so, I don't remember it at all which makes me think they are putting too much emphasis on it.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm disappointed in how Shae's character is being portrayed.
The shock of her testimony and final betrayal now will be lessened, imo.


Also, as crazy as this may sound, I feel they really held back on Joffery's douche-ness. He was much more vicious towards Tyrion at the breakfast and wedding.

Completely agree on Shae. They're making her way too sympathetic of a character. And by proxy it will make Tyrion seem way more douchey.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I also thought they did a great job with the wedding. Made it look like a bunch of people could be the killer. I thought Joffrey seemed as douchey as usual. Will sort of miss seeing the character as the actor generally did a fantastic job in his portrayal of Joffrey.

One thing I don't really get is the whole Prince Oberyn being gay/bisexual thing. Was that ever an explicit part of the books? If so, I don't remember it at all which makes me think they are putting too much emphasis on it.

I recently reread book three and it was mentioned that there were "rumors" of how he enjoyed both sexes. Definitely not a defining characteristic though. HBO has really run with it.

 

[IrishLion]

I think they're doing it to emphasize Dorne's "Free Love" attitude. Men, women, bastards, etc... Dorne don't hate, they just love haha. It helps create a greater contrast, like in the scene when Martel metaphorically told Cersei and Tywin to eff off. When they both stood there silent after his "morality" speech, I was cheering on my couch.

 

[HoosierIrish]

I'm disappointed in how Shae's character is being portrayed.
The shock of her testimony and final betrayal now will be lessened, imo.


Also, as crazy as this may sound, I feel they really held back on Joffery's douche-ness. He was much more vicious towards Tyrion at the breakfast and wedding.

I 100% agree with both of these. What they are doing with Shae is just ridiculous. That's been one of the biggest head scratchers for me in the books, is why she did it, did she ever care for Tyrion, was she a spy for Tywinn(It wasn't ever mentioned in the books was it? because I completely missed when they disclosed it was the queen of thornes who poisoned Joeffry).

I Loved the part with Prince Oberyn

Prince Oberyn: OH, hello!
Tyrion: Hello.
Prince Oberyn: Not you. continues towards flexible girl

Really makes me wish he didn't die.

 

[wizards8507]

Last night was a major dud of an episode for me.

1. I echo what everyone has said about Shae. The biggest "dagger" of her betrayal in the books is that she never loved Tyrion and that she was "just a whore" all along.

2. The poisoning was way, way, way too obvious. How many times can you pass a cup of wine back and forth without the entire audience knowing that there's a poisoning afoot.

3. The Queen of Thorns' involvement was much too obvious. Maybe I'm slow, but I had no idea who Joffrey's real murderer was until I read the books a second time. I thought it was possible that it could have been Tyrion, especially after his exchange with Jamie in the dungeons, but in the show it's way too obvious that he's being falsely accused.

4. The Unsullied (non readers) have no idea that Tommen even exists, let alone that he's now the king.

5. This complaint is more about last season than this one, but I think the transformation of Theon to Reek is much more powerful if we don't actually witness the flaying. I think a "Reek reveal" with flashbacks would have been more effective.

 

[Grahambo]

I don't think people who have read the books should be too bothered with how HBO portray's some things. They are appealing to the simplistic nature of the audience. People would not enjoy the series as much if they had to sit here and truly piece together the 'game'.

Maybe a better way to say it is that: people are dumb and its easier for HBO to be more simple about certain aspects then really go word for word with the book.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't think people who have read the books should be too bothered with how HBO portray's some things. They are appealing to the simplistic nature of the audience. People would not enjoy the series as much if they had to sit here and truly piece together the 'game'.

Maybe a better way to say it is that: people are dumb and its easier for HBO to be more simple about certain aspects then really go word for word with the book.

I'm okay when the show takes liberties for the show's sake. Those liberties might irk me when it comes to enjoying the show, but my biggest peeves are when the show actually changes how I enjoy the books. Part of the fun of the books is speculation about the "gray areas" and especially the future. Will Gendry, Penny, or Belwas play a big role in The Winds of Winter? We now know absolutely not, or they would have been included in the show.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm okay when the show takes liberties for the show's sake. Those liberties might irk me when it comes to enjoying the show, but my biggest peeves are when the show actually changes how I enjoy the books. Part of the fun of the books is speculation about the "gray areas" and especially the future. Will Gendry, Penny, or Belwas play a big role in The Winds of Winter? We now know absolutely not, or they would have been included in the show.

I don't think that's necessarily true about Penny. I'm assuming you say this because there were no female dwarf entertainers at the wedding. But they could easily introduce her later in the TV series without that connection.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm okay when the show takes liberties for the show's sake. Those liberties might irk me when it comes to enjoying the show, but my biggest peeves are when the show actually changes how I enjoy the books. Part of the fun of the books is speculation about the "gray areas" and especially the future. Will Gendry, Penny, or Belwas play a big role in The Winds of Winter? We now know absolutely not, or they would have been included in the show.

Gendry could still show up again though, right? Davos sent him back towards King's Landing in a boat, which is a departure from the books (where he joined the Brotherhood without Banners).

But he could reappear in the show whenever Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood do. He might have had a "mishap" when rowing to King's Landing and found his way back to the Brotherhood, or maybe he'll encounter Brienne in King's Landing and travel with her, merging their storylines up to the battle at the Inn when Brienne is assaulted.

EDIT: Unless you meant to note Edric Storm's absence.

 

[wizards8507]

Gendry could still show up again though, right? Davos sent him back towards King's Landing in a boat, which is a departure from the books (where he joined the Brotherhood without Banners).

But he could reappear in the show whenever Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood do. He might have had a "mishap" when rowing to King's Landing and found his way back to the Brotherhood, or maybe he'll encounter Brienne in King's Landing and travel with her, merging their storylines up to the battle at the Inn when Brienne is assaulted.

EDIT: Unless you meant to note Edric Storm's absence.

Yeah I mean Gendry is in the show but his character is a Gendry/Edric Storm hybrid.

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[IrishLion]

Yeah I mean Gendry is in the show but his character is a Gendry/Edric Storm hybrid.

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That doesn't mean Gendry won't be a role-player of some sort in the Winds of Winter. It just means Edric Storm won't lol.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I don't think Shae testifies. I think Bronn testifies.

Bronn's betrayal will be more shocking for both readers and viewers since they are portrayed as being such buddies. However, if Bronn saw Shae get on the boat, why would she get back? She was never on the boat. He took her to Tywin. Bronn isn't Tyrion's man anymore. He's Tywin's. Bronn will testify and get a wife and house for it since Lollys isn't a character. It will be crushing, shocking, and it will give Bronn a bigger role. Shae will still be in Tywin's chamber and that will go down as it went in the book.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't think Shae testifies. I think Bronn testifies.

Bronn's betrayal will be more shocking for both readers and viewers since they are portrayed as being such buddies. However, if Bronn saw Shae get on the boat, why would she get back? She was never on the boat. He took her to Tywin. Bronn isn't Tyrion's man anymore. He's Tywin's. Bronn will testify and get a wife and house for it since Lollys isn't a character. It will be crushing, shocking, and it will give Bronn a bigger role. Shae will still be in Tywin's chamber and that will go down as it went in the book.

Hm. I like the theory from a Shae and Bronn perspective, but I absolutely hate it from a Tywin perspective. The be-all and end-all for Tywin is the Lannister name and the pride of The Rock. He wouldn't bribe Bronn of the Blackwater with a wife and a castle to frame his Lannister son for regicide, regardless of his disdain for him.

 

[IrishLion]

Hm. I like the theory from a Shae and Bronn perspective, but I absolutely hate it from a Tywin perspective. The be-all and end-all for Tywin is the Lannister name and the pride of The Rock. He wouldn't bribe Bronn of the Blackwater with a wife and a castle to frame his Lannister son for regicide, regardless of his disdain for him.

I also wouldn't expect him to be hooking up with his son's former whore/lover, but we saw how that turned out lol.

 

[IrishLax]

Last night was a major dud of an episode for me.

1. I echo what everyone has said about Shae. The biggest "dagger" of her betrayal in the books is that she never loved Tyrion and that she was "just a whore" all along.

2. The poisoning was way, way, way too obvious. How many times can you pass a cup of wine back and forth without the entire audience knowing that there's a poisoning afoot.

3. The Queen of Thorns' involvement was much too obvious. Maybe I'm slow, but I had no idea who Joffrey's real murderer was until I read the books a second time. I thought it was possible that it could have been Tyrion, especially after his exchange with Jamie in the dungeons, but in the show it's way too obvious that he's being falsely accused.

4. The Unsullied (non readers) have no idea that Tommen even exists, let alone that he's now the king.

5. This complaint is more about last season than this one, but I think the transformation of Theon to Reek is much more powerful if we don't actually witness the flaying. I think a "Reek reveal" with flashbacks would have been more effective.

Ignoring point #1 for a second, which I totally agree with, I dunno if you've really got the right impression on some of this because you are coming from it from a "having read the books" standpoint.

Talking to and watching it with a lot of people who haven't read the books, for point #2 I don't think it was any more obvious than it was in the book. When I read the book, I readily expected someone to poison Joff at any moment... and when Dontos started plotting with Sansa and told her to be ready to leave that night it pointed towards someone trying something... and there was just as much textual "passing of the cup" in that scene as there was in the show.

For #3, I don't get this. You're saying it was too obvious in the show, but everyone who hasn't read the books (just look at the thread on our site about Season 4) immediately started asking "who dun it!?!" after it happened. People could make cases for Tyrell, Tyrion, or Dontos & Co. (i.e. everyone who thought he did it also assumes there were people helping him and wondered who those people are).

So it really wasn't obvious to them at all... the fact that they put so many people in the scene interacting with the cup in fact did just the opposite of making it obvious. In the books, it's no less obvious and you could piece it together pretty easily from the hairnet interaction.

For #4, they know Tommen exists if they follow it closely or want to know. It's not like Tommen was a focal point in the books at this juncture either. He's been mentioned or shown in many episodes and HBO also goes out of their way to provide family trees/bios for these kinds of moments.

For #5, I disagree wholeheartedly. In the books it's almost hard to understand how someone like Theon could actually be this mentally broken. The reveal in the books isn't very powerful at all (except that you don't know he's alive until then) and is more "wtf? really?" whereas the show makes your skin crawl as it happens and is dual tool to develop Ramsay as a character as well. Without doing it the way they did it, you'd be like "huh? who is this Ramsay Snow guy?" Remember... the show didn't have any of the pre-sacking of Winterfell Ramsay development.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

If you watched the previews for next week it looks like Olenna will outright say she did it to Marge.

 

[wizards8507]

For #3, I don't get this. You're saying it was too obvious in the show, but everyone who hasn't read the books (just look at the thread on our site about Season 4) immediately started asking "who dun it!?!" after it happened. People could make cases for Tyrell, Tyrion, or Dontos & Co. (i.e. everyone who thought he did it also assumes there were people helping him and wondered who those people are).

I haven't spoken to a ton of non-readers, but my wife is one and she knew before it even happened. She said something along the lines of "the old lady is going to kill Joffrey" right after she made her "what kind of man kills someone on their wedding?" comment. I did a quick Google just now and this is being described as a "mystery" in the popular press. Maybe I give show viewers too much credit re: their intelligence.

For #5, I disagree wholeheartedly. In the books it's almost hard to understand how someone like Theon could actually be this mentally broken. The reveal in the books isn't very powerful at all (except that you don't know he's alive until then) and is more "wtf? really?" whereas the show makes your skin crawl as it happens and is dual tool to develop Ramsay as a character as well. Without doing it the way they did it, you'd be like "huh? who is this Ramsay Snow guy?" Remember... the show didn't have any of the pre-sacking of Winterfell Ramsay development.

Maybe I misused the term "powerful." When I read Reek 1, I was legitimately disturbed for awhile. I thought the writing was some of the most psychologically sick shit I've ever read.

The rat squealed as he bit into it, squirming wildly in his hands, frantic to escape. The belly was the softest part. He tore at the sweet meat, the warm blood running over his lips. It was so good that it brought tears to his eyes. His belly rumbled and he swallowed. By the third bit the rat had ceased to struggle, and he was feeling almost content.

 

[IrishLion]

I haven't spoken to a ton of non-readers, but my wife is one and she knew before it even happened. She said something along the lines of "the old lady is going to kill Joffrey" right after she made her "what kind of man kills someone on their wedding?" comment. I did a quick Google just now and this is being described as a "mystery" in the popular press. Maybe I give show viewers too much credit re: their intelligence.

Idk man, that cup changed hands an awful lot before the poisoning. Tyrion, Margeary, Sansa, Olenna, or even the guys serving the wine all had access to the cup or the wine at some point. For a non-reader, that has to create a lot of theories.

And that doesn't even include the non-readers who are asking about the possibility of the pie being poisoned, and the seemingly random bro (Dontos) asking Sansa to leave the wedding.

And if you're questioning their intelligence, you're questioning about half of IE judging by the Season Four thread haha.

 

[wizards8507]

Idk man, that cup changed hands an awful lot before the poisoning. Tyrion, Margeary, Sansa, Olenna, or even the guys serving the wine all had access to the cup or the wine at some point. For a non-reader, that has to create a lot of theories.

I mean Olenna SAID "Killing a man at a wedding … what kind of man would do such a thing?" That's like bashing you over the head with the answer. I think she said something similar in the book but she's one of 10,982,390,148 characters in the book so it's easy to gloss over. Not to mention her interrogation of Sansa re: Joffrey's nature last season and the "shopping for necklaces" scene last week immediately followed by Dontos showing up with a gift for Sansa.

And that doesn't even include the non-readers who are asking about the possibility of the pie being poisoned, and the seemingly random bro (Dontos) asking Sansa to leave the wedding.

Yeah I'm just getting around to reading some of the comments on episode recaps and whatnot. The Red Viper seems to be the main candidate according to them but I've also seen Littlefinger, Tywin himself, and Brienne (wtf?)

I guess I can't blame them. They're sweet summer children, and winter is coming.

And if you're questioning their intelligence, you're questioning about half of IE judging by the Season Four thread haha.

I'm not saying "you're dumb if it's not obvious." All I know is that I have to explain Agents of SHIELD to my wife but she had this one pegged immediately.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm not saying "you're dumb if it's not obvious." All I know is that I have to explain Agents of SHIELD to my wife but she had this one pegged immediately.

I couldn't get into Agents of SHIELD after the first two episodes. Should I retry?

And I've got several Unsullied friends that were very convinced Joffrey was going to die at some point this season, and Olenna Tyrell shows up and is immediately a focus of the show, so it appears that it should be obvious... but I also think non-readers are at the point where the simple explanations are sailing over their heads and they are going right for the complex conspiracies. They've had their hearts broken too many times to think things are simple, even with clues that say otherwise. They too are learning that Winter is Coming.

 

[Emcee77]

This Queen of Thorns issue doesn't bother me because I remember thinking it was obvious in the books, too. I'm surprised people seem to think there was more mystery there. But it's been a while since I read them ... maybe it's only obvious in hindsight and I'm having the opposite bias of wizards.

Ignoring point #1 for a second, which I totally agree with, I dunno if you've really got the right impression on some of this because you are coming from it from a "having read the books" standpoint.

Talking to and watching it with a lot of people who haven't read the books, for point #2 I don't think it was any more obvious than it was in the book. When I read the book, I readily expected someone to poison Joff at any moment... and when Dontos started plotting with Sansa and told her to be ready to leave that night it pointed towards someone trying something... and there was just as much textual "passing of the cup" in that scene as there was in the show.

For #3, I don't get this. You're saying it was too obvious in the show, but everyone who hasn't read the books (just look at the thread on our site about Season 4) immediately started asking "who dun it!?!" after it happened. People could make cases for Tyrell, Tyrion, or Dontos & Co. (i.e. everyone who thought he did it also assumes there were people helping him and wondered who those people are).

So it really wasn't obvious to them at all... the fact that they put so many people in the scene interacting with the cup in fact did just the opposite of making it obvious. In the books, it's no less obvious and you could piece it together pretty easily from the hairnet interaction.

For #4, they know Tommen exists if they follow it closely or want to know. It's not like Tommen was a focal point in the books at this juncture either. He's been mentioned or shown in many episodes and HBO also goes out of their way to provide family trees/bios for these kinds of moments.

For #5, I disagree wholeheartedly. In the books it's almost hard to understand how someone like Theon could actually be this mentally broken. The reveal in the books isn't very powerful at all (except that you don't know he's alive until then) and is more "wtf? really?" whereas the show makes your skin crawl as it happens and is dual tool to develop Ramsay as a character as well. Without doing it the way they did it, you'd be like "huh? who is this Ramsay Snow guy?" Remember... the show didn't have any of the pre-sacking of Winterfell Ramsay development.

Basically agree with all this. I'm reserving judgment on point #1 though. I want to see exactly where the show is going with this.