Northwestern football players win right to unionize

[aubeirish]

Not directed at you Aubs, I just don't understand the whole "paying players will ruin CFB"... since CFB has already been ruined by money.

It's probably not the best sentence to describe why it's a bad idea to pay college students.
Financially it doesn't make much sense for these guys. Taxes, contract insecurity, etc...
Besides, if you go to the SEC you are already getting paid tax free and still have everything else for free. A pretty sweet deal if you ask me. Paying players would also be bad news for about 80% of the D1 teams.

 

[Irish#1]

That's just it though (and I am not disagreeing with you wholly), the NCAA specifies that the football scholarship is the most valuable, yet baseball and basketball (with partial scholarships) can have a kid away from class for up to 2 weeks (a significant disadvantage with or without tutors which would be even more time outside of class and sports related activities). Plus, the majority of academic only students do not spend over 100 hours per week devoted solely to school. At most the average student spends less than 60 hours per week (a typical full load+ the recommended 3 hrs studying per hour of class) in school related activities. Are there some that do more yes, but it is not a condition on their academic scholarships ( as long as they keep their grades up).

And as far as taxes go, right now scholarships are grants and not taxable. What would be taxable would be additional benefits that could be negotiated however they could just as easily be negotiated, with representation as part of the grant status. The NCAA could easily make a stipend part of the scholarship. There are numerous scenarios that the students could be paid without them being considered benefits (under the current tax code). It would take a change of law by Congress and enforcement by the IRS to change the current situation, so let's not get hung up on the taxable income issue. All that has been determined is that the players are essentially employees and deserve the right to representation, which at this point, they have none.

In the end I don't think it will end up as we are talking like it will, but the system will fundamentally change, hopefully so that the NFL will have to pony up for its own minor league so an 18 year old can earn a paycheck with a club while growing up and not have to go fake an academic career in order to get to the NFL.

I don't think anyone is hung up on the taxable income issue, but I think you're mistaken if you don't think this won't happen. Yes all that has been determined at the moment is that they can have representation, but it's not going to stop there. Why do they want representation? To get paid!

A labor attorney on the radio today stated that if these kids do end up getting paid, the rules as we know them go out the window and they will be treated as a regular employee, especially if the are represented by a union. He sees two scenarios: The scholarship stays and they get a supplemental payment or the scholarship goes away and they are paid a larger annual wage. Either one will be taxable income under today's tax code.

Lets say they get shot down and there is no union, but the NCAA allows students to sell their likeness, get paid for autographs, etc. If that happens I can definitely see the IRS going after players like Manziel.

 

[Irish#1]

Define "does very well".

If by it you mean attracting players, then okay.

But, I don't think the baseball programs at a Clemson or LSU are self-sustaining. I thought I read somewhere that outside of football, VERY few programs make money. If college football starts to lose the ability to make money one way or another, it really restricts the opportunity for other programs.

Football supports pretty much every other sport.

You can't compare the NBDL or MLB's minor leagues to a minor league for football.
1. Both of those sports don't require players be as physically ready as they do for football.
2. The NBDL has not been nearly as successful as the NBA had hoped. If I recall, it also loses money and has to be supported financially by the NBA.
3. To start a minor league football would cost millions and millions. NFL owners won't want to give up that kind of money. Look how the WFL & USFL failed. They had some NFL players, but most were ex college players who couldn't make it in the NFL.
4. If a football minor league was started by the NFL and HS players flocked to it, I could see colleges dropping football. Who would want to pay to watch slow, short, small kids play?
5. If schools drop football, other sports will go away.

 

[connect the dots]

ND's profit last year was ~$80MM, 2nd only Texas's ~$100MM, so surely we'd be at some sort of advantage.

Precisely, the Notre Dame and Texas football programs are commercial enterprises that generate millions of dollars of revenue. Did Notre Dame give a shit about the NCAA, or college football for that matter, when it unilaterally negotiated a broadcast contract with NBC? Under whose terms of engagement did the Notre Dame football program become a member of the ACC Conference? When Under Armour executives sought an endorsement contract from Notre Dame, I can bet that the first words out of Jack Swarbrick's mouth were SHOW ME THE MONEY! In post season play, why must Notre Dame's participation always be taken into consideration? If you listen attentively at the door of the Notre Dame athletic department, you will clearly hear someone singing the Hallelujah Chorus. This labor board's endorsement of collective bargaining rights for Northwestern(private school) football players will, once again, benefit the Notre Dame football program.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Define "does very well".

If by it you mean attracting players, then okay.

But, I don't think the baseball programs at a Clemson or LSU are self-sustaining. I thought I read somewhere that outside of football, VERY few programs make money. If college football starts to lose the ability to make money one way or another, it really restricts the opportunity for other programs.

I think the stat is that out of the 120 FBS athletic departments, only 22 are actually profitable. And the only reason they are profitable is football. Without football, most athletic departments would fail quickly.

 

[BGIF]

Only 23 out of 228 public schools in NCAA Division I generated enough money to pay for athletics, a figure basically unchanged for three consecutive years.

In addition, subsidies for athletics in the form of student fees, school or state support rose dramatically in 2012 after the rate of increase had declined in the two previous years. Across the 228 schools, the amount of these subsidies rose by nearly $200 million compared with what the athletics programs received in 2011. That is the greatest year-over-year dollar increase in the subsidy total since USA TODAY Sports began collecting the finance information that schools annually report to the NCAA; the first year of those data covers the schools' 2004-05 fiscal year.

NCAA member revenue, spending increase

NCAA member revenue, spending increase
Steve Berkowitz and Jodi Upton, USA TODAY Sports 4:25 p.m. EDT July 1, 2013

 

[NDohio]

Football supports pretty much every other sport.

You can't compare the NBDL or MLB's minor leagues to a minor league for football.
1. Both of those sports don't require players be as physically ready as they do for football.
2. The NBDL has not been nearly as successful as the NBA had hoped. If I recall, it also loses money and has to be supported financially by the NBA.
3. To start a minor league football would cost millions and millions. NFL owners won't want to give up that kind of money. Look how the WFL & USFL failed. They had some NFL players, but most were ex college players who couldn't make it in the NFL.
4. If a football minor league was started by the NFL and HS players flocked to it, I could see colleges dropping football. Who would want to pay to watch slow, short, small kids play?
5. If schools drop football, other sports will go away.

I think a lot of people would. College sports is still more about the institution you are cheering for as opposed to the athletes you are cheering for. If all teams are playing under the same rules and they all have slow, short, small kids playing in a competitive manner people will watch and will want their school to win.

 

[connect the dots]

I think a lot of people would. College sports is still more about the institution you are cheering for as opposed to the athletes you are cheering for. If all teams are playing under the same rules and they all have slow, short, small kids playing in a competitive manner people will watch and will want their school to win.

Would you please run this argument by the executives of NBC and the network media that spends billions of dollars to broadcast college football to a nationwide audience. The sponsors who promote the venues for post season play would also like to identify a viewing public that will watch slow, short, small kids play college football in a competitive manner. The apparel merchandiser Under Armour would certainly have grounds to void that 8 billion dollar contract, should Notre Dame field of team of slow, short, small kids.

I give Notre Dame a great deal of credit for playing the service academies every year. This gives their programs national attention, and an opportunity to make some television revenue. And, an opportunity for slow, short, small kids to show their true grit to our nation!l

 

[BleedBlueGold]

In regards to a minor league system for football:

I talked to a friend about this idea yesterday. There are numerous kids that are athletically gifted and want nothing to do with academics. That's fine. Let them try out for the D-league. The D-league could be funded by the NCAA and the NFL. They could have 10 teams and do a draft. The kids that are good enough, will make a team. They sign a three year contract to get paid while playing and being groomed for the NFL. This solves two problems: kids who don't want to be at school don't have to be there and football factories don't have to pretend they care about academics anymore. Universities can then focus doing what they are supposed to do - educate kids and get them a meaningful degree.

As for the high school kids who are either not good enough for the D-league or actually do care about getting a degree, they can choose to go to a school, just as they do now, on scholarship and without payment. The current age/three-year requirement stands. The defense to this method is that there are tons of kids each year who are looked over, or who are 3stars and below that just need more time to develop their body and their skill. CFB will not become diluted as much as some may think w/o the 5star prima donas. These kids are still competitive and it's proven every year in the draft that there are numerous hidden gems.

Education needs to be brought to the forefront. Paying college athletes anything more than a full-ride scholarship is ludicrous. If you want to get paid, go get a job. When you're in school, being a student is your job. I think a minor league system could benefit in this scenario. I know this theory has plenty of holes. But every great idea has to start somewhere. It can be tweaked.

 

[NDohio]

Would you please run this argument by the executives of NBC and the network media that spends billions of dollars to broadcast college football to a nationwide audience. The sponsors who promote the venues for post season play would also like to identify a viewing public that will watch slow, short, small kids play college football in a competitive manner. The apparel merchandiser Under Armour would certainly have grounds to void that 8 billion dollar contract, should Notre Dame field of team of slow, short, small kids.

I give Notre Dame a great deal of credit for playing the service academies every year. This gives their programs national attention, and an opportunity to make some television revenue. And, an opportunity for slow, short, small kids to show their true grit to our nation!l

Obviously my post, being a response to irish#1's comments about what would become of college football if a semi-pro football league were to from, takes into consideration that the major college football teams would still be on a level playing field.

If all 4 and 5 star players were to go to a semi-pro football league and that left colleges with only 3 star players and below, would you stop watching college games? Would you pay more attention to Notre Dame Football or some obscure city's team that is the minor league team to your favorite NFL Franchise? Me? I am watching UND. I am still buying Under Armour products with the Irish logo on it as well.

I truly believe that the institution of college football is greater, much greater, than the individual players participating.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

For those complaining about the potential dilution of CFB in the event of a minor league system:

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Sorry that pic is so large. The point of the post was that less than 2% of all NCAA players even make it to the NFL. What happens to the rest of them? Oh that's right, we watch them play every Saturday for their respective schools and then they head off to class M-F like the rest of students enrolled in the university. CFB would not be diluted to the point of being unbearable to watch. No chance.

 

[Irish#1]

I think a lot of people would. College sports is still more about the institution you are cheering for as opposed to the athletes you are cheering for. If all teams are playing under the same rules and they all have slow, short, small kids playing in a competitive manner people will watch and will want their school to win.

I know there will be some that will watch, but I have to believe attendance would drop dramatically. I think it would look more like D3 or whatever the NCAA calls it now.

Would you please run this argument by the executives of NBC and the network media that spends billions of dollars to broadcast college football to a nationwide audience. The sponsors who promote the venues for post season play would also like to identify a viewing public that will watch slow, short, small kids play college football in a competitive manner. The apparel merchandiser Under Armour would certainly have grounds to void that 8 billion dollar contract, should Notre Dame field of team of slow, short, small kids.

I give Notre Dame a great deal of credit for playing the service academies every year. This gives their programs national attention, and an opportunity to make some television revenue. And, an opportunity for slow, short, small kids to show their true grit to our nation!l

I appreciate the kids that show true grit and play, but don't have the measurable's to play at the highest level. My son would have been considered a four star WR if he wasn't 5'7" and weighed 140lbs. Exceptional hands, great speed, quickness and great field awareness. He played NAIA ball. A lot of similar kids on the team. They played great, but usually in front of 300-400 people.

In regards to a minor league system for football:

I talked to a friend about this idea yesterday. There are numerous kids that are athletically gifted and want nothing to do with academics. That's fine. Let them try out for the D-league. The D-league could be funded by the NCAA and the NFL. They could have 10 teams and do a draft. The kids that are good enough, will make a team. They sign a three year contract to get paid while playing and being groomed for the NFL. This solves two problems: kids who don't want to be at school don't have to be there and football factories don't have to pretend they care about academics anymore. Universities can then focus doing what they are supposed to do - educate kids and get them a meaningful degree.

As for the high school kids who are either not good enough for the D-league or actually do care about getting a degree, they can choose to go to a school, just as they do now, on scholarship and without payment. The current age/three-year requirement stands. The defense to this method is that there are tons of kids each year who are looked over, or who are 3stars and below that just need more time to develop their body and their skill. CFB will not become diluted as much as some may think w/o the 5star prima donas. These kids are still competitive and it's proven every year in the draft that there are numerous hidden gems.

Education needs to be brought to the forefront. Paying college athletes anything more than a full-ride scholarship is ludicrous. If you want to get paid, go get a job. When you're in school, being a student is your job. I think a minor league system could benefit in this scenario. I know this theory has plenty of holes. But every great idea has to start somewhere. It can be tweaked.

I think this concept is worth looking into. The only part I disagree with is NCAA ball not getting diluted. I think it would. Look at how many kids in football and basketball have a higher opinion of themselves and their skills, but are not as good as they think they are? Look how many ignore sound advice to leave college early and then don't make a team. All of these would probably flock to the minor league. The hidden gems are usually not that many, but as I said, I think this concept is worth looking into.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Sorry that pic is so large. The point of the post was that less than 2% of all NCAA players even make it to the NFL. What happens to the rest of them? Oh that's right, we watch them play every Saturday for their respective schools and then they head off to class M-F like the rest of students enrolled in the university. CFB would not be diluted to the point of being unbearable to watch. No chance.

I think that is incredibly deceiving though.

Look at last year's draft. There were 254 overall draft picks, of which 184 came from the "automatic" conferences (roughly 72%).

In those six conferences, there were 68 teams (2012 since this was 2013 draft). If we assume that each team was at the full 85 limit and that 25% of their players were seniors, that means there were roughly 1,445 players exhausting their eligibility in those conferences. That translates into roughly 13% of the players making the league. I know this is a crude way of doing it, but I think it is directionally correct. Obviously, when you start taking away the schools that are in these conferences but are not traditional powers, that % increases even more (TTU, Kansas, Kentucky, Wake, Duke, etc). Point being, that I think it is safe to say that 15-20% of the prospects brought into schools like ND, Bama, Florida, OSU, MSU, UCLA, USC and the like end up being drafted. Losing those players from those schools will make the product on the field noticeably different IMO. Not saying it would or not would be watched as much, just watered down a bit.

2013 NFL Draft by conference: SEC doubles the competition - CBSSports.com

 

[koonja]

I think college football would be fine if there was a farm system as well.

Consider the sociology of this idea.

Kids have more information than ever about getting a degree and what it means. Getting a stronger degree is more important than ever, and the players are starting to realize that I believe. Add to that the fact that football in general is becoming less popular in regards to people playing it because of all of the new info on the long term effects (thank you Goodell!), and I think you'll continue to see schools like Stanford and notre dame benefit from this.

With this trend considered, imagine the type of people this farm system plus attract? It'd turn into a cess pool and I strongly believe that 99% of parents would steer their kids away from the farm system and towards playing in college and getting a degree. It'd be littered with illiterate players with bad attitudes and poor upbringings, IMO, making the increasingly popular valuable degrees even more attractive.

It'd be like the NFL, only with younger, far less educated, immature people in it, and ran by people much less qualified people who can't get an NFL front office job. It'd be a fucking circus

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I think that is incredibly deceiving though.

Look at last year's draft. There were 254 overall draft picks, of which 184 came from the "automatic" conferences (roughly 72%).

In those six conferences, there were 68 teams (2012 since this was 2013 draft). If we assume that each team was at the full 85 limit and that 25% of their players were seniors, that means there were roughly 1,445 players exhausting their eligibility in those conferences. That translates into roughly 13% of the players making the league. I know this is a crude way of doing it, but I think it is directionally correct. Obviously, when you start taking away the schools that are in these conferences but are not traditional powers, that % increases even more (TTU, Kansas, Kentucky, Wake, Duke, etc). Point being, that I think it is safe to say that 15-20% of the prospects brought into schools like ND, Bama, Florida, OSU, MSU, UCLA, USC and the like end up being drafted. Losing those players from those schools will make the product on the field noticeably different IMO. Not saying it would or not would be watched as much, just watered down a bit.

2013 NFL Draft by conference: SEC doubles the competition - CBSSports.com

This makes absolute sense and I completely agree that powerhouse schools usually put more than 2% of their roster into the league every year. Those schools in particular would see their product diluted. I see what you're saying.

 

[Cackalacky]

Nick Saban of Alabama Crimson Tide says college players deserve say in future - ESPN

David Shaw of Stanford Cardinal questions unionization movement - ESPN

 

[garyasher]

I think college football would be fine if there was a farm system as well.

Consider the sociology of this idea.

Kids have more information than ever about getting a degree and what it means. Getting a stronger degree is more important than ever, and the players are starting to realize that I believe. Add to that the fact that football in general is becoming less popular in regards to people playing it because of all of the new info on the long term effects (thank you Goodell!), and I think you'll continue to see schools like Stanford and notre dame benefit from this.

With this trend considered, imagine the type of people this farm system plus attract? It'd turn into a cess pool and I strongly believe that 99% of parents would steer their kids away from the farm system and towards playing in college and getting a degree. It'd be littered with illiterate players with bad attitudes and poor upbringings, IMO, making the increasingly popular valuable degrees even more attractive.

It'd be like the NFL, only with younger, far less educated, immature people in it, and ran by people much less qualified people who can't get an NFL front office job. It'd be a fucking circus

Well, that could happen or the NFL would run it similarly to baseball's farm system. It could be ran very well. They could have many leagues that represent different talent levels and use this format to expand into Europe. They could give cities that don't have an NFL team or a division 1 college team a franchise. It could actually work for the system, and players could actually practice longer in a professional atmosphere where they would be ready in 2 years to hit the NFL.

I still think players coming through the college ranks would have a lot to offer and can see an even split of players in the NFL who took the 2 different paths to get there. A farm system would offer all players the chance at getting to the NFL faster. What do you think they would pay these guys though? I think arena football is very low end pay. It would certainly end very poorly for more kids if they don't get a degree and not make an NFL team. A lot of wasted opportunities I am afraid.

College football would actually get cleaned up and we wouldn't see nearly the arrests that we have seen in the past.

 

[koonja]

Well, that could happen or the NFL would run it similarly to baseball's farm system. It could be ran very well. They could have many leagues that represent different talent levels and use this format to expand into Europe. They could give cities that don't have an NFL team or a division 1 college team a franchise. It could actually work for the system, and players could actually practice longer in a professional atmosphere where they would be ready in 2 years to hit the NFL.

I still think players coming through the college ranks would have a lot to offer and can see an even split of players in the NFL who took the 2 different paths to get there. A farm system would offer all players the chance at getting to the NFL faster. What do you think they would pay these guys though? I think arena football is very low end pay. It would certainly end very poorly for more kids if they don't get a degree and not make an NFL team. A lot of wasted opportunities I am afraid.

College football would actually get cleaned up and we wouldn't see nearly the arrests that we have seen in the past.

I won't argue with you that it could be ran well. I have my doubts, but you make a good point.

But I'm stuck on the type of kids this would attract in lieu of having a college education AND big time football.

Kids are more informed than ever of what getting an education can give you. And I think my point on injury/long term effects of football is an important one. With the emphasis on player safety and having a back-up plan to football, I think this farm system would attract the real idiots, for lack of a better way to put it. Add to that their age and I think it'd make for a great reality TV show, but I think the large majority of kids would still choose the college route.

It's too early to see how this would actually go, but this is my hunch. College football would be fine.

 

[wizards8507]

UConn’s Napier: ‘We do have hungry nights’ | The CT Mirror

Give me a damn break.

 

[koonja]

UConn’s Napier: ‘We do have hungry nights’ | The CT Mirror

Give me a damn break.

10 vbucks says he owns a PS4 or Xbox1 AT COLLEGE.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

"We as student athletes get utilized for what we do so well. We are definitely best to get a scholarship to our universities, but at the end of the day, that doesn't cover everything. We do have hungry nights that we don't have enough money to get food and sometimes money is needed," the senior told reporters. "I think, you know, Northwestern has an idea, and we'll see where it goes."

It does cover a meal plan.

 

[wizards8507]

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/conn/genrel/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/student-athlete.pdf

Full Athletics Grant-in-Aid

A full athletics grant-in-aid by NCAA definition is financial aid that consists of tuition and fees, room and board, and required text books. It does not cover course-related supplies (e.g. art supplies for an art course, etc.).

You can eat in any residence hall. Dining Hall hours vary with service hours of 7:00 – 10:40 am (B), 10:40 – 2:15 pm (L), 4:15 – 7:15 pm (D). Your coach will acquaint you with eating arrangements should he or she schedule an early practice which occurs during breakfast hours.

If you live off campus and your grant-in-aid includes meals, you may use your stipend to purchase an on-campus meal plan, if you wish. This will entitle you to eat in any of the facilities. If, however, your coach requires that you eat on campus, you just go to Dining Services to sign up for a meal plan.

DINING SERVICES

All on-campus undergraduates are required to pay for a meal plan. The cost for the meal plans are as follows:

2013-14

Ultimate- $5,284.00
Unlimited access during operating hours to resident dining units, 35 flex passes, 500 points

Value- $5,044.00
Unlimited access during operating hours to resident dining units, 40 flex passes, 200 points

Custom- $4,784.00
Unlimited access during operating hours to resident dining units, 75 flex passes

Community Plan- $243 (25 meals)

In other words, the UConn athletic scholarship covers a meal plan and the UConn meal plans LITERALLY offer UNLIMITED food, but this asshole is "starving."

 

[Emcee77]

Haha. I have as much sympathy for these players as anybody, but Shabazz, if you are going to bed hungry, you are doing something wrong. Getting enough to eat was one thing the athletes I knew in college didn't have to worry about.

 

[koonja]

But what if you're baked at 11pm and the FREE-all-you-can-eat diner is closed?

You would have to dig into your PS4/rims/Iphone/Jordans account for that $25 meal. That's just not fair to these college kids.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It does cover a meal plan.

Football Players Receive $17,000 Annually in Cash, all within NCAA Rules « HolyTurf

Good review of the monies available to athletes today. Perhaps not all are educated that these exist, but the opportunity is there none the less.

 

[Irish#1]

I didn't realize there was that much available to them above the scholarship. Obviously there are a lot that wouldn't qualify for a Pell Grant due to their parents W2's, but there's a lot that would.

Still no sympathy from me.

 

[Seanthornton]

Could be the beginning of the end to the college football we all know and love so much. I'm firmly against it, I can see there point. If this happens I could disassociate myself from NCAA football all together. Yet another sport ruined by progress and greed. Thank You Northwestern.

 

[DillonHall]

Could be the beginning of the end to the college football we all know and love so much. I'm firmly against it, I can see there point. If this happens I could disassociate myself from NCAA football all together. Yet another sport ruined by progress and greed. Thank You Northwestern.

Just to be clear, it's just some players from Northwestern who started this. The university itself is against unionization.

 

[wizards8507]

Just to be clear, it's just some players from Northwestern who started this. The university itself is against unionization.

Not to mention that the NLRB only has jurisdiction over private institutions. Something like 90% of FBS schools are public.

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