Cosmos

bobbyok1

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I didn't see it, but was anything that was said incorrect!

To answer this question I will defer to a post by OMM previous to the show being aired. Also it is not simply about what is being said as correct or incorrect but also a level of intellectual honesty I as mentioned tough in cheek in my previous post. The problem to me is this is a worldview argument being made and it is being sold as purely scientific. Either way I will leave the discussion for others from this point forward. I'll spend my time on pursuits more worthwhile in my opinion.

Probably the only thing necessary to keep your crap detectors up and scanning for, will be anti-religion bias, and shots at Catholicism, though subtle. A good friend of mine informs me that the show will continue to spread the myth that Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake by the Church because he postulated that there were likely many inhabited worlds in the universe. This is a clever way to mock the mediaeval Church, but it is historically inaccurate, simplistic, and manipulative. As a Catholic and a Science Teacher with a PhD in the History of Science and Technology, I've had to listen to such anti-Church prejudice out of these guys for a lifetime... but they have an agenda.

But enjoy the actual science in there, I'm sure that they have even more money to work with than my old buddy Carl, and he did wonders with his budget. But even Carl indicated to me that the reason that he went atheist was his disgust with the Church doing things like destroying the Alexandrian library [only marginally true, and then still Dark Ages times] and the Bruno affair.

Science IS good and fun... but only as long as the scientists talk science and get out of areas where they know less than you or I.
 
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Cackalacky

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I am actually surprised by some of the opinions so far. If you ever watched the original series, ever heard Sagan speak, read his books etc., you would know he was a humanist and much of his popular science works attempted to put man (including cultures, religions, and our shared histories together) into perspective of the immensity of the Cosmos. He had a great knack for generating conversation, stimulating imagination all the while being able to make people feel special about their place. I did not see the Bruno part as a bashing of the Catholics. It was presented in historical context and succinctly accurate (I knew it was going to be on as I had seen the clip last week). It was included in this episode because this was the foundation of what's to come next. A large part of the original Cosmos is historical issues. This is not Through the Wormhole or any other type of Science Channel show. It was important enough to include because it shows what true intellectual dishonesty is. The Church was just wrong to do what they did and Bruno's case was a relatable and historical fact to show what happens when dogma and doctrine are challenged through another form of analysis (the scientific method).

This show will delve into history. It will delve into what it means to be human. It will delve into how we can and probably should behave as a society moving forward and with NGT and Seth McFarlane involved, it will not hold any punches.
 

Old Man Mike

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I refuse to be drawn into this, as the actual historical truth of these matters takes some serious study --- casual listening to someone claiming something will not do it.

I will say these few things, knowing that my status here is no better than anyone's [despite being a PhD in the History of Science, and having taught all this stuff --- you do not know that as I'm just electronic marks on your computer screen].

1). Bruno was not arrested and killed because of his philosophy of many worlds. Bruno was a force pushing the idea that Jesus Christ wasn't God, and maybe didn't even exist, and about a dozen other anti-Church doctrines which he refused to shut up about --- yes, he still shouldn't have been killed, but it had nothing to do with anti-science. Also, this was an act taken by the Spanish authorities unilaterally, not the full Church. Many Church authorities were pursuing the same "many world hypothesis" at the time. This is also true of Galileo. Any responsible book by an actual historian will delineate this for the reader. Continuing to bring up this story in "science" contexts is intellectually dishonest and manipulative.

2). There was no science in "The Dark Ages". In those centuries anything resembling proto-science was labeled "Natural Magic." This in its best form meant attempting to find the patterns or "recipes" in Nature which, if followed, would allow a person to elicit predictable "action"/behavior from Nature, and therefore give one a "power" of a sort. The Church had nothing against this unless the participant attempted to include the demonic or paranormal within those recipe/rituals. Once proto-science began to separate itself clearly from magic, Church figures all over the continent were engaging in elements of it.

3). Though almost undeserved, the Church took such a beating over Galileo [again despite that several high Church authorities were sympathetic to his laws of motion work and supported that --- remember also that Galileo served only "house arrest" and his books got "silently distributed" all over Europe --- his problem was that he insisted on shouting his ideas in a combative fashion in public, whereas Copernicus just went the spread the science around quietly and let people get used to it route], that when a much more challenging scientist {Darwin} came along, the Catholic Church was the first religious institution to say that scientific fact would have the say on the theory and not doctrinal pronouncements.

4). I saw Sagan do the same thing. He was unapologetic about it. What irritated me [outside of the Church-bashing] was that this is not only completely unnecessary, historically wrong, but, in offending a significant portion of citizens, causes science itself great harm. We live in a world/country teetering on the edge of denying if not hating science as it is. As a science teacher, it really angered me to see these Crown Princes of Science pouring gasoline on that ammo dump. We barely keep Kansas [almost yearly] from demanding that the theory of natural selection no longer be taught in high school science classes. A little humility and friendliness out of the Crown Princes would help.
 
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Cackalacky

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Now that all of that is out the way I really like what they did with the cosmic calendar. I think it will be a part of the other episodes (at least I hope so).
 

woolybug25

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I just became dumber for reading some of the comments in this thread.
 

irishknight35

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Loved it, can't wait for the rest of the series. Really puts humanities history on this planet into perspective and how amazing and complex the journey has been up to this point.
 

Whiskeyjack

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But who will stick up for the Church?!

Based on the God thread, not many apparently. Which is especially sad on a message board for ND fans.

My my.... There goes the fun.

If someone started a thread here about the Creationism Museum, and how wonderfully informative and well-produced it is, would they be justified in complaining about you, Buster and hammer "ruining" the thread by pointing out its absurd biases? Give me the science without the secular materialism. That's what ruined the original series for me, and it's clear that Nye and de Grasse-Tyson are intent on promoting the same sort of revisionist history in order to prop up a false Science v. Religion dichotomy.

I just became dumber for reading some of the comments in this thread.

Which ones, in particular?
 
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woolybug25

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Which ones, in particular?

These:

Also it is not simply about what is being said as correct or incorrect but also a level of intellectual honesty I as mentioned tough in cheek in my previous post. The problem to me is this is a worldview argument being made and it is being sold as purely scientific.

This was clear from the first half of the episodes Catholic bashing to the finishing remarks that highlighted the worlds major religions being just seconds old on the "cosmic calendar." Got to love the intellectual honesty displayed here.

In one way, this kind of show reaffirms for me the necessity of a god. The evolutionary scale is utterly immense. Life on earth is a mere few seconds in the cosmos year.

Yet, if life can develop and advance (without the existence of God) in what are mere seconds on the cosmic year, how is the universe not completely teeming with life that is observable by us?

The Milky Way is only 100,000 light years in diameter. Even if alien races were limited to light speed, the whole galaxy should be populated multiple times over. Or we should see the vast wreckage of innumerable alien species of bygone eras. But we don't.

Some people argue that life is just so rare, that we are it. But that seems farcical, conceited, and completely improbable given the immense amounts of time and incredible number of stars and planets. Or rather, it seems far more farcical than belief in an all powerful deity that either created or directed that life.

The awe-inspiring nature of the immense universe is perhaps the best argument for God.

I didn't get upset because of Obama's voice because I left the room for that part.

So, I'm pumped for this show. But, sheesh, wtf did they have to start it off with some very obvious teleprompter reading by THAT guy.

and we aren't even on two pages yet. This thread should be wildly entertaining...
 

tussin

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and we aren't even on two pages yet. This thread should be wildly entertaining...

Not really why you feel that third post is stupid. If you know the meaning of life and/or true origin of the universe please do explain.
 

woolybug25

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Not really why you feel that third post is stupid. If you know the meaning of life and/or true origin of the universe please do explain.

What? You mean the one where when shown that we are an insanely small part of the universe, translates that to "it must be God"?

Or were you refering to the point where, despite acknowledging that Earth is an insanely small part of the universe (above), that we must be divinely created because there aren't old rusted out UFO's all over the place?

Which one?
 

ACamp1900

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Mike's point number 4 in his previous post... (Having formatting issues with quotes today for some reason)

That is a great point, and to that point, as someone who teaches some college entry level science courses (though no PHD) from time to time, even I find myself turned off by the said attitudes. Full honesty, I prob. won't bother watching this show: 1.) I have doubts I would learn all that much from it (I am assuming it's a flyby on a lot of theories and info I already know) and 2.) I sure as hell can do without the combative nature that so many already seem to see clear enough. Just my honest thoughts.

Cacky, you’re my boy blue, hope you and yours enjoy it.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Not really why you feel that third post is stupid. If you know the meaning of life and/or true origin of the universe please do explain.

And the first two wooly linked are making the same basic point as OMM's excellent posts above.
 

tussin

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What? You mean the one where when shown that we are an insanely small part of the universe, translates that to "it must be God"?

Or were you refering to the point where, despite acknowledging that Earth is an insanely small part of the universe (above), that we must be divinely created because there aren't old rusted out UFO's all over the place?

Which one?

When people take the time to give their thoughts on topics that obviously have no clear answer, such as religion and astronomy, I don't think it's appropriate to call out what they say as "stupid." It does nothing to further the conversation and EVERYONE is stupid when it comes to knowing our place in the cosmos.

Upon rereading, I'll admit that his post rambles a bit. But I think his belief that the overwhelming complexities of the universe are evidence of a God isn't something to dismiss. Neither are the other posts that point out the obvious bias of Bruno segment (the evil-looking cartoon depictions of religious figures were laughable).
 
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woolybug25

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When people take the time to give their thoughts on topics that obviously have no clear answer, such as religion and astrology, I don't think it's appropriate to call out what they say as "stupid." It does nothing to further the conversation and EVERYONE is stupid when it comes to knowing our place in the cosmos.

Upon rereading, I'll admit that his post rambles a bit. But I think his belief that the overwhelming complexities of the universe are evidence of a God isn't something to dismiss. Neither are the other posts that point out the obvious bias of Bruno segment (the evil-looking cartoon depictions of religious figures were laughable).

I didn't call anyone stupid.... I said that "I became stupider".

So ease your roll, homie...
 

IrishLion

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I didn't call anyone stupid.... I said that "I became stupider".

So ease your roll, homie...

I took your post as, "I have become dumber for having read the dumb comments in this thread."

Some of them lack insight, but the argument about a complex universe pointing to God and the fact that we have yet to encounter space debris shouldn't be included in that group IMO.
 
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Cackalacky

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Mods,
My intent was to discuss the show not get into another religious discussion. If you deem it necessary go ahead merge this with God, Bible and Jesus thread. It will probably continue to head that direction.
 

woolybug25

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Tyson's thoughts on the matter...

Tyson acknowledged that he's bothered about the debate between science and religion that's became a mainstay of political campaigns and op-ed pages.

"There was a time when science and religion kind of co-existed under the same roof," Tyson told Stelter. "I find it odd that we live in a time where people who are strongly religious want to make everyone else the same kind of religious way they are, and break down the door of the science classroom to put their religious philosophies in there."

So there's that...

'Cosmos' dazzles in debut with Neil deGrasse Tyson - CNN.com
 

tussin

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I vote to leave this topic as a separate thread.

On an unrelated note, I love watching astronomy docs and was kind of disappointed at how high level this one appears to be. I really like how detailed How The Universe Works gets.
 
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Cackalacky

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My son was hooked after they talked about how the heavy elements were created in stars. I let him stay up to watch it. He really loved the spaceship. He woke up talking about it. He already wants to get the telescope out. I will probably take him out to the beach if it is clear this weekend.
 

gkIrish

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My son was hooked after they talked about how the heavy elements were created in stars. I let him stay up to watch it. He really loved the spaceship. He woke up talking about it. He already wants to get the telescope out. I will probably take him out to the beach if it is clear this weekend.

I didn't watch the show but if it got one kid to react this way then who cares about the other stuff you guys are talking about...
 

dshans

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I think that there's some confusion between astronomy and astrology here.

I'm a Cancer on the cusp of Leo. I live on a small blue planet (third from the sun) in the Milky Way galaxy.

I enjoy walks on the beach on warm evenings and walks through the fall colors on brisk days. I'm not fond of Piña Coladas but enjoy an aromatic, stingingly smooth cognac. Talking far too much is my favorite pastime.

E-mail me: dshans@ cosmology.com. Enclose pics. No dummies, please.
 
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Cackalacky

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I didn't watch the show but if it got one kid to react this way then who cares about the other stuff you guys are talking about...

Yeah. That's what happened with me. I have a telescope that is big enough to see Messier objects on a clear night. Might just start with moon.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Mods,
My intent was to discuss the show not get into another religious discussion. If you deem it necessary go ahead merge this with God, Bible and Jesus thread. It will probably continue to head that direction.

I have no desire to railroad this thread into another theological debate. OMM and I have said our piece, so I'll be moving on. I'd simply encourage those who enjoy the program to examine the materialist philosophy that Cosmos is implicitly promoting. If anyone wants to discuss that aspect of the show, let's do it in the "God, Bible and Jesus" thread.

Tyson's thoughts on the matter...

Do you see how remarkably un-nuanced that view is? His issue is (rightly) with creationism, a view held by a minority of evangelical Christians in this country. But he makes no distinction between creationists and Christians generally, or any other faith for that matter. The battle lines are clear-- Science v. Religion, and the religious must be put in their place. Nye did the same thing in his recent debate with Ken Ham. It's a pernicious idea that needs to be confronted and debunked as often as possible, because it gets presented as historical "fact" so often by the proponents of secular materialism.

But I'll let it go. Meet me in the theology thread if you'd like to discuss why the Cosmological Insignificance Argument doesn't make much sense.
 

ACamp1900

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Cosmetology is my shizz… so flee…

Also, love me Pina Coladas…
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I refuse to be drawn into this, as the actual historical truth of these matters takes some serious study --- casual listening to someone claiming something will not do it.

I will say these few things, knowing that my status here is no better than anyone's [despite being a PhD in the History of Science, and having taught all this stuff --- you do not know that as I'm just electronic marks on your computer screen].

1). Bruno was not arrested and killed because of his philosophy of many worlds. Bruno was a force pushing the idea that Jesus Christ wasn't God, and maybe didn't even exist, and about a dozen other anti-Church doctrines which he refused to shut up about --- yes, he still shouldn't have been killed, but it had nothing to do with anti-science. Also, this was an act taken by the Spanish authorities unilaterally, not the full Church. Many Church authorities were pursuing the same "many world hypothesis" at the time. This is also true of Galileo. Any responsible book by an actual historian will delineate this for the reader. Continuing to bring up this story in "science" contexts is intellectually dishonest and manipulative.

2). There was no science in "The Dark Ages". In those centuries anything resembling proto-science was labeled "Natural Magic." This in its best form meant attempting to find the patterns or "recipes" in Nature which, if followed, would allow a person to elicit predictable "action"/behavior from Nature, and therefore give one a "power" of a sort. The Church had nothing against this unless the participant attempted to include the demonic or paranormal within those recipe/rituals. Once proto-science began to separate itself clearly from magic, Church figures all over the continent were engaging in elements of it.

3). Though almost undeserved, the Church took such a beating over Galileo [again despite that several high Church authorities were sympathetic to his laws of motion work and supported that --- remember also that Galileo served only "house arrest" and his books got "silently distributed" all over Europe --- his problem was that he insisted on shouting his ideas in a combative fashion in public, whereas Copernicus just went the spread the science around quietly and let people get used to it route], that when a much more challenging scientist {Darwin} came along, the Catholic Church was the first religious institution to say that scientific fact would have the say on the theory and not doctrinal pronouncements.

4). I saw Sagan do the same thing. He was unapologetic about it. What irritated me [outside of the Church-bashing] was that this is not only completely unnecessary, historically wrong, but, in offending a significant portion of citizens, causes science itself great harm. We live in a world/country teetering on the edge of denying if not hating science as it is. As a science teacher, it really angered me to see these Crown Princes of Science pouring gasoline on that ammo dump. We barely keep Kansas [almost yearly] from demanding that the theory of natural selection no longer be taught in high school science classes. A little humility and friendliness out of the Crown Princes would help.

Great post. Thanks for the replies.

I didn't watch the show but if it got one kid to react this way then who cares about the other stuff you guys are talking about...

Can't you guys see, it's about the children. Forget the fact finding/fighting. I agree in that our children are important and I hope more of them are in awe of science and interested in lifetime pursuits of furthering our understanding of the world.

But most people also don't want their children inculcated by (mis)information. So it seems reasonable to talk about the show and also point out possible errors.
 

bobbyok1

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I have no desire to railroad this thread into another theological debate. OMM and I have said our piece, so I'll be moving on. I'd simply encourage those who enjoy the program to examine the materialist philosophy that Cosmos is implicitly promoting. If anyone wants to discuss that aspect of the show, let's do it in the "God, Bible and Jesus" thread.



Do you see how remarkably un-nuanced that view is? His issue is (rightly) with creationism, a view held by a minority of evangelical Christians in this country. But he makes no distinction between creationists and Christians generally, or any other faith for that matter. The battle lines are clear-- Science v. Religion, and the religious must be put in their place. Nye did the same thing in his recent debate with Ken Ham. It's a pernicious idea that needs to be confronted and debunked as often as possible, because it gets presented as historical "fact" so often by the proponents of secular materialism.

But I'll let it go. Meet me in the theology thread if you'd like to discuss why the Cosmological Insignificance Argument doesn't make much sense.

I am in agreement here with Whiskeyjack. I had no intentions of high jacking this thread to make it a religious discussion thread. I also have said my two cents and will be leaving it at that and moving on.
 
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Cackalacky

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I vote to leave this topic as a separate thread.

On an unrelated note, I love watching astronomy docs and was kind of disappointed at how high level this one appears to be. I really like how detailed How The Universe Works gets.

With twelve more episodes coming the scope will be significantly more focused in each episode. Plus there will be a lot of discussion of biology as well. It's my understanding the 1st episode cast a wide net on purpose.
 
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