'10 NC DE Prince Shembo (In hot water)

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Bogtrotter07

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I agree completely. My wife is a Saint Mary's graduate and three years after graduation I probably have more continued friendships with SMC students than ND students. Even most of my SMC friends acknowledge that the culture over there can be somewhat hostile towards Notre Dame and men in general. I think it's due to a combination of different types of people that together leads to something unhealthy.
1. Many of the students are from Catholic, all-female high schools. They have had limited exposure to males in academic or social settings, which creates a natural discomford. With the high Catholic population, Notre Dame also has many freshmen enrolling from single-sex high schools, but they're given a bit of a baptism by fire during Frosh-O and have to get over their discomfort real quick once classes start.

2. Many students went to SMC specifically because it's an all-women's college rather than deciding "this is the school I like best, and it just happens to be an all-women's college." Again, this comes with certain innate biases. There's a reason why they sought out an all-female education.

3. Some of the women are from "Notre Dame families" and feel tremendous pressure to be a part of that community. This creates resentment from the girls who went to Saint Mary's for its own sake, because every SMC student will tell you that Notre Dame had nothing to do with their decision to enroll, even though, for many of them, it did.

This is getting a bit further off topic, but I believe that the worst thing that ever happened to Saint Mary's was when Notre Dame admitted women. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, but I think if Notre Dame were still an all-male school, Saint Mary's would have developed at a similar pace and both would be recognized as elite institutions on par with where Notre Dame is now. Saint Mary's still has some excellent students, but they've been forced to lower their admissions standards just to fill the freshman class every year. The applicant pool just isn't large enough. It's causing some legitimate financial concerns for the school.

Is this a class issue?

And there is two more elephants in the room.

One is the very real issue of race; did it influence a panic that may have led to the original complaint.

And the last elephant? There is one more thing required than the two things that I quoted above for their to be a crime. Inability to consent.
 
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dshans

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... but I believe that the worst thing that ever happened to Saint Mary's was when Notre Dame admitted women. I'm not saying it was right or wrong ...

Interesting point. I was a junior at ND when they first admitted women. There had been ongoing negotiations for a merger between SMC and ND. Incoming fresh(wo)men at SMC in 1970 were told that they would graduate with a Notre Dame degree.

Negotions broke down when it became clear that what ND had in mind was not a merger but an "absorption" that gave no credence to the hard fought quality and reputation of an outright SMC education. The board and administration at SMC eventually said "thanks but no thanks."

When ND declared itself coed somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% of the the 1,200 women first admitted were SMC transfers. Many of my female friends wound up ND students with a "prestigious" Notre Dame degree. Far too many had a "second tier" SMC sheepskin.

I admire SMC for their stance. I wish ND hadn't been such snobs and bullies. The transition could have been much smoother and more effective without being so divisive.

This is all by my recollection. What's done is done and historical research means little to me in this instance.
 

gkIrish

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The problem with SMC is that they want all of the advantages ND offers its students while going out of their way to protest everything ND guys think or do. They write editorials about disgusting male behavior at parties but are 10x more promiscuous than ND female students. Obviously I'm making a generalization and there are plenty of exceptions but SMC girls always rubbed me the wrong way and I never spent time over there.
 

wizards8507

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The problem with SMC is that they want all of the advantages ND offers its students while going out of their way to protest everything ND guys think or do. They write editorials about disgusting male behavior at parties but are 10x more promiscuous than ND female students. Obviously I'm making a generalization and there are plenty of exceptions but SMC girls always rubbed me the wrong way and I never spent time over there.
Well there's your problem. The only SMC girls you would have ever run into are the ones you met at bars and parties.
 

gkIrish

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Well there's your problem. The only SMC girls you would have ever run into are the ones you met at bars and parties.

I was waiting for you to post. Actually, I was president of a club where half our members were SMC girls. Didn't care for most of them. Spent 2-4 hours per week with them. I was being literal when I said I never physically went over there; didn't mean I didn't know any SMC girls.
 

GowerND11

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Well there's your problem. The only SMC girls you would have ever run into are the ones you met at bars and parties.

As one of my best friends would describe these girls: "Came over on the Sluttle."

He was at ND from 06-10.

Edit: No disrespect towards the SMC girls. Especially towards you and your significant other Wizards.
 
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Jerry

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I am sorry to ask this, but the report you cite just lists the touching of her breasts. I know various articles have referred to rape and/or sexual assult. Do we know exactly what Lizzy Seeburg claims to have happened? Or have her statements to the police not come out?

They printed her exact statement to police in the Chicago Tribune. That's what always got me about this case. If i tried to tell people it wasn't a rape they would roll their eyes, but there isn't as much mystery to this case as some people like to pretend.
 

wizards8507

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I am sorry to ask this, but the report you cite just lists the touching of her breasts. I know various articles have referred to rape and/or sexual assult. Do we know exactly what Lizzy Seeburg claims to have happened? Or have her statements to the police not come out?
Unwanted touching of the breasts" IS "sexual assault" by the letter of the law, but "sexual assault" sounds more scandalous so that's what they print. Anything that says "rape" is an outright fabrication.
 

Old Man Mike

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I've been holding off saying anything here, because I said almost all I felt way back when when IE hashed this to death four years ago. BUT....

If one insists on handing out "guilt" in this circumstance, that guilt goes to the parents... not the girl, and not the boy [neither of them were angels, but the parents created this risk.]

How? They had a daughter, by all reports a wonderful and beautiful girl, who just happened to have a brain chemistry glitch which required her to take some serious anti-depressant medicine --- at least that is what the post-suicide reporting said. These parents, wishing for the fantasy that a daughter in this situation could just go out there and live like any other young girl [of what? a sheltered 19?] SENT HER AWAY TO SCHOOL, and away from her safety nest, while still requiring medication. One can see how some parents might have wanted to believe that she could handle it, but it's still foolish.

So our sweetheart [and I say this very affectionately and in anger over her lost life] tried. One day she decided to go to an event where she and her girlfriend would try to stretch their wings. Lots of girls were doing the same with the masculine ND jocks. She and her girlfriend "take a little chance" with a big powerful freshman and his friend and wander away. She's almost by definition flirting with this move, and the guy begins to see where this will go.

She panics. He angrily caves and walks away. He's scared for his football life. She's panicked about her own ability to cope normally. His jackass friend soon pours gasoline on the nerves of everyone.

Sometime later ... several days later if I remember it ... this, plus whatever other stresses she is feeling, make her take the worst possible "solution" to what she feels about herself.

The parents never grow up. They pursue every rumor and media opportunity like ... well, like people refusing to face the fact that it is THEMSELVES who put their daughter into a situation that she couldn't handle.

The world will never focus on the people who really screwed up here. They'll focus on the athlete ... because he's cheapshot easy to try to blame for what?.... fondling the breast of a pretty girl who walked away with him.

Yeh. He's the "criminal" alright.


I should have just kept out of this thread, but DAMM this one makes me angry ... for Prince and even more for Lizzy.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I've been holding off saying anything here, because I said almost all I felt way back when when IE hashed this to death four years ago. BUT....

If one insists on handing out "guilt" in this circumstance, that guilt goes to the parents... not the girl, and not the boy [neither of them were angels, but the parents created this risk.]

How? They had a daughter, by all reports a wonderful and beautiful girl, who just happened to have a brain chemistry glitch which required her to take some serious anti-depressant medicine --- at least that is what the post-suicide reporting said. These parents, wishing for the fantasy that a daughter in this situation could just go out there and live like any other young girl [of what? a sheltered 19?] SENT HER AWAY TO SCHOOL, and away from her safety nest, while still requiring medication. One can see how some parents might have wanted to believe that she could handle it, but it's still foolish.

So our sweetheart [and I say this very affectionately and in anger over her lost life] tried. One day she decided to go to an event where she and her girlfriend would try to stretch their wings. Lots of girls were doing the same with the masculine ND jocks. She and her girlfriend "take a little chance" with a big powerful freshman and his friend and wander away. She's almost by definition flirting with this move, and the guy begins to see where this will go.

She panics. He angrily caves and walks away. He's scared for his football life. She's panicked about her own ability to cope normally. His jackass friend soon pours gasoline on the nerves of everyone.

Sometime later ... several days later if I remember it ... this, plus whatever other stresses she is feeling, make her take the worst possible "solution" to what she feels about herself.

The parents never grow up. They pursue every rumor and media opportunity like ... well, like people refusing to face the fact that it is THEMSELVES who put their daughter into a situation that she couldn't handle.

The world will never focus on the people who really screwed up here. They'll focus on the athlete ... because he's cheapshot easy to try to blame for what?.... fondling the breast of a pretty girl who walked away with him.

Yeh. He's the "criminal" alright.


I should have just kept out of this thread, but DAMM this one makes me angry ... for Prince and even more for Lizzy.

Best post I have ever seen in terms of honesty and biting insight. To add to that, not expecting that these folks were in the one per cent that didn't see race at all, in addition to everything else swirling around this sheltered Caucasian girl has engaged with an African-American young man. This may not seem like much, but lets not kid each other. What a child hears about equality, and the images of Aunt Elvira's scorn, are two different things. With kids involved in other gender extra-racial relationships it is ideal meet social stigma.

I know. My oldest is bi-racial. Handsome like Adonis, at about that age girls that had been friends for years started to get lost, and parents were downright unfriendly about it. In front of my eyes. Years later I asked my two oldest, and they told me the truth of what seemed like a confusing situation. My son had a thing for a neighborhood girl. Her parents were very prejudice, and she was a year or so older than my son.

Supposedly he "liked" this girl's cousin, but this girl, who was older would always drive them on dates. (Because she could drive). So naturally they would invite my second son to go along. To keep the first girl company? No. So it wasn't so hard to understand how later the cousin became my younger son's girlfriend. And their was no bad blood between them.

It still happens, even though there is more interracial dating, the stigma still exists, and it may have been just enough to make a bad situation, seemingly unmanageable. Doesn't matter whether the parents were good or bad. Only what caught the daughter in her fears. Remember. Fear, and dealing with fear, is not based upon rational thought. It is irrational, so the imagined can be as real and dangerous as the truth.

Edit: I hope I didn't offend anyone. I was just trying to make the point that you had two young people trying to negotiate the most delicate of social interactions, and based upon the fishbowl that College Athletics are, I am not sure either was equipped with the tools to handle the situation at the time. Not only did Prince have the normal student-athlete issues that have been a challenge for so many as we have discussed on this site, but I strongly doubt he even had the first inkling of the issues Lizzy was dealing with. So on the basis of the latter, I do not believe that Prince had the tools to effectively deal with the situation.
 
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tussin

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I've been holding off saying anything here, because I said almost all I felt way back when when IE hashed this to death four years ago. BUT....

If one insists on handing out "guilt" in this circumstance, that guilt goes to the parents... not the girl, and not the boy [neither of them were angels, but the parents created this risk.]

How? They had a daughter, by all reports a wonderful and beautiful girl, who just happened to have a brain chemistry glitch which required her to take some serious anti-depressant medicine --- at least that is what the post-suicide reporting said. These parents, wishing for the fantasy that a daughter in this situation could just go out there and live like any other young girl [of what? a sheltered 19?] SENT HER AWAY TO SCHOOL, and away from her safety nest, while still requiring medication. One can see how some parents might have wanted to believe that she could handle it, but it's still foolish.

So our sweetheart [and I say this very affectionately and in anger over her lost life] tried. One day she decided to go to an event where she and her girlfriend would try to stretch their wings. Lots of girls were doing the same with the masculine ND jocks. She and her girlfriend "take a little chance" with a big powerful freshman and his friend and wander away. She's almost by definition flirting with this move, and the guy begins to see where this will go.

She panics. He angrily caves and walks away. He's scared for his football life. She's panicked about her own ability to cope normally. His jackass friend soon pours gasoline on the nerves of everyone.

Sometime later ... several days later if I remember it ... this, plus whatever other stresses she is feeling, make her take the worst possible "solution" to what she feels about herself.

The parents never grow up. They pursue every rumor and media opportunity like ... well, like people refusing to face the fact that it is THEMSELVES who put their daughter into a situation that she couldn't handle.

The world will never focus on the people who really screwed up here. They'll focus on the athlete ... because he's cheapshot easy to try to blame for what?.... fondling the breast of a pretty girl who walked away with him.

Yeh. He's the "criminal" alright.


I should have just kept out of this thread, but DAMM this one makes me angry ... for Prince and even more for Lizzy.

I strongly disagree with the bolded. As someone who has immediate family experience with the severely depressed, letting loved ones go away to school and giving them the opportunity to grow and figure out who they are independently is often the most beneficial scenario for both parties. The overwhelming majority of mental illness / depression cases are not black and white. I'd argue that it's not advisable to shelter someone at home into their adulthood just because they are perceived to have "a brain chemistry glitch." There comes a time where any parent needs to see if their little bird can actually fly... unfortunately, Lizzy couldn't.

I can only find fault in the parents reaction to the death, and even then... it's an emotional time. I don't recall all the details but of course they are going to fight for and protect both their daughter's and family's reputation and legacy, while also trying to have the most thorough understanding of the events that took place. Most everyone would forget objectivity and do the same.

Not surprising, it's the media's fault for dragging this terrible story through the mud countless times.
 

IrishLax

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I strongly disagree with the bolded. As someone who has immediate family experience with the severely depressed, letting loved ones go away to school and giving them the opportunity to grow and figure out who they are independently is often the most beneficial scenario for both parties. The overwhelming majority of mental illness / depression cases are not black and white. I'd argue that it's not advisable to shelter someone at home into their adulthood just because they are perceived to have "a brain chemistry glitch." There comes a time where any parent needs to see if their little bird can actually fly... unfortunately, Lizzy couldn't.

OMM is actually, to a degree, spot on here. You're not wrong speaking typically, I get what you're saying and I agree. But it ignores some particulars with Lizzy.

What is often ignored here is that they had already tried to send her away to college once and it was disastrous. In no way am I being cavalier or flippant when I say that it's lucky there was even an opportunity for a second time. And then they opted to send her away to SMC... mind boggling decision after how the first collegiate experience unfolded.

I cannot emphasize enough that of people I've talked to actually close to this situation, there are two groups of people. There's one that blames SMC/ND/NDSP/doctors/whoever for poorly handling her. At minimum, they think the people who were supposed to be protecting and watching over her failed and in reading the Trib articles, etc. basically feel like the lack of sympathy/support/guidance/attention is what's to blame. There is another large group of people though who have pulled no punches saying largely blame the parents and that it was idiotic to send her off to school again and that this was a "when" not "if" kind of thing.

My view on the whole thing is that it's far more a tragedy than any sort of crime. And I wish people focused more on that and why this actually happened instead of the juicy "oooo must be a coverup! he must be guilty! rape rape rape!" sensationalist, inaccurate bullshit.
 

Rack Em

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OMM is actually, to a degree, spot on here. You're not wrong speaking typically, I get what you're saying and I agree. But it ignores some particulars with Lizzy.

What is often ignored here is that they had already tried to send her away to college once and it was disastrous. In no way am I being cavalier or flippant when I say that it's lucky there was even an opportunity for a second time. And then they opted to send her away to SMC... mind boggling decision after how the first collegiate experience unfolded.

I cannot emphasize enough that of people I've talked to actually close to this situation, there are two groups of people. There's one that blames SMC/ND/NDSP/doctors/whoever for poorly handling her. At minimum, they think the people who were supposed to be protecting and watching over her failed and in reading the Trib articles, etc. basically feel like the lack of sympathy/support/guidance/attention is what's to blame. There is another large group of people though who have pulled no punches saying largely blame the parents and that it was idiotic to send her off to school again and that this was a "when" not "if" kind of thing.

My view on the whole thing is that it's far more a tragedy than any sort of crime. And I wish people focused more on that and why this actually happened instead of the juicy "oooo must be a coverup! he must be guilty! rape rape rape!" sensationalist, inaccurate bullshit.

Where did you read/hear this?
 

IrishLax

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Where did you read/hear this?

Without getting too specific, I know quite a bit from the "Seeberg" from firsthand sources. I can PM you details if you want.

She had a disastrous semester at Dayton and never, ever should've gone back off to college. It was completely irresponsible.

There is a completely untold, undiscussed half of this story that explains why Lizzy Seeberg is dead and it has basically nothing at all to do with Prince Shembo allegedly trying to get to 2nd base.
 

tussin

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OMM is actually, to a degree, spot on here. You're not wrong speaking typically, I get what you're saying and I agree. But it ignores some particulars with Lizzy.

What is often ignored here is that they had already tried to send her away to college once and it was disastrous. In no way am I being cavalier or flippant when I say that it's lucky there was even an opportunity for a second time. And then they opted to send her away to SMC... mind boggling decision after how the first collegiate experience unfolded.

I cannot emphasize enough that of people I've talked to actually close to this situation, there are two groups of people. There's one that blames SMC/ND/NDSP/doctors/whoever for poorly handling her. At minimum, they think the people who were supposed to be protecting and watching over her failed and in reading the Trib articles, etc. basically feel like the lack of sympathy/support/guidance/attention is what's to blame. There is another large group of people though who have pulled no punches saying largely blame the parents and that it was idiotic to send her off to school again and that this was a "when" not "if" kind of thing.

My view on the whole thing is that it's far more a tragedy than any sort of crime. And I wish people focused more on that and why this actually happened instead of the juicy "oooo must be a coverup! he must be guilty! rape rape rape!" sensationalist, inaccurate bullshit.

Even still, anything short of a prior suicide attempt during her first college experience (not sure this info is public) is not grounds to just give up on the college experience. I'm assuming that none of us know the details of what perceived improvements she made before her second stop at SMC. Her parents (and Lizzy too) may have genuinely felt that she was in a good position to succeed. It's not like she was an institutional nutcase; the drug she overdosed from is very commonly prescribed.

It's just a tragedy really... I don't blame anyone.
 

Jerry

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OMM is actually, to a degree, spot on here. You're not wrong speaking typically, I get what you're saying and I agree. But it ignores some particulars with Lizzy.

What is often ignored here is that they had already tried to send her away to college once and it was disastrous. In no way am I being cavalier or flippant when I say that it's lucky there was even an opportunity for a second time. And then they opted to send her away to SMC... mind boggling decision after how the first collegiate experience unfolded.

I cannot emphasize enough that of people I've talked to actually close to this situation, there are two groups of people. There's one that blames SMC/ND/NDSP/doctors/whoever for poorly handling her. At minimum, they think the people who were supposed to be protecting and watching over her failed and in reading the Trib articles, etc. basically feel like the lack of sympathy/support/guidance/attention is what's to blame. There is another large group of people though who have pulled no punches saying largely blame the parents and that it was idiotic to send her off to school again and that this was a "when" not "if" kind of thing.

My view on the whole thing is that it's far more a tragedy than any sort of crime. And I wish people focused more on that and why this actually happened instead of the juicy "oooo must be a coverup! he must be guilty! rape rape rape!" sensationalist, inaccurate bullshit.

On the tribune's website they posted a bunch of pictures of Lizzy back when the story broke. One picture was of Lizzy and her Dad at the first ND home game that year. It was dated and IIRC they actually said it was just a few days before her death in the caption. What SHOCKED me was this was AFTER the alleged incident. So your daughter was sexually assaulted, by a football player, and you come down to South Bend and take her to the game where the player is playing???
 

ulukinatme

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They printed her exact statement to police in the Chicago Tribune. That's what always got me about this case. If i tried to tell people it wasn't a rape they would roll their eyes, but there isn't as much mystery to this case as some people like to pretend.

It's not a rape in the strongest sense of the word, where sexual intercourse occurred, but rape is defined in this way:

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

Some people will argue that touching the breast qualifies there, and therefore rape occurred. I always understood it as forced sexual intercourse though. Bunch of forum lawyers on other sites have always been quick to throw that one out there when this case comes up.
 

wizards8507

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It's not a rape in the strongest sense of the word, where sexual intercourse occurred, but rape is defined in this way:

Some people will argue that touching the breast qualifies there, and therefore rape occurred. I always understood it as forced sexual intercourse though. Bunch of forum lawyers on other sites have always been quick to throw that one out there when this case comes up.

Dictionary definitions and legal definitions are very different things. In some states, the word "rape" never even appears in the statutes and everything is just different degrees of sexual assault. In Indiana, rape is a Class A or B felony. This situation would be, at worst, Class D sexual battery.

Sexual Battery, Class D felony: touching another person with intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of oneself or someone else, when the person being touched is:

(1) Compelled to submit to the touching by force or the imminent threat of force;

OR

(2) So mentally disabled or deficient that consent to the touching cannot be given.

I haven't heard of any threats or violence so that throws out (1), and if everyone involved had their wits about them enough to say "no," then the alleged acts fail to satisfy (2) as well.

So no crime occurred and it ABSOLUTELY wasn't a rape. I'm not sure why you're trying to play devil's advocate to the point of stretching definitions to say this WAS rape, but all that does is perpetuate lies and preconceived notions that simply aren't true.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
 
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RDU Irish

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All fascinating soap opera stuff. Tragic for both parties, but it is pretty hard to pick the mentally imbalanced ones out of a line up. Even though I don't see how Shembo can really take any "blame", I imagine it is an unsettling experience none of us would want to carry for the rest of our lives like Prince will. Horrible situation for all parties and the only good you can pull from it is to promote awareness, blaming people is fruitless.


So what do y'all think of Shembo's combine results? Did he help, hurt or maintain position? Where do we see him getting drafted?
 

wizards8507

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Ugh stay off the ESPN comments section on this one if you don't want to be sick.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I strongly disagree with the bolded. As someone who has immediate family experience with the severely depressed, letting loved ones go away to school and giving them the opportunity to grow and figure out who they are independently is often the most beneficial scenario for both parties. The overwhelming majority of mental illness / depression cases are not black and white. I'd argue that it's not advisable to shelter someone at home into their adulthood just because they are perceived to have "a brain chemistry glitch." There comes a time where any parent needs to see if their little bird can actually fly... unfortunately, Lizzy couldn't.

I can only find fault in the parents reaction to the death, and even then... it's an emotional time. I don't recall all the details but of course they are going to fight for and protect both their daughter's and family's reputation and legacy, while also trying to have the most thorough understanding of the events that took place. Most everyone would forget objectivity and do the same.

Not surprising, it's the media's fault for dragging this terrible story through the mud countless times.

Is there a difference between letting a child that has been, say, a victim of emotional abuse such as being very rigidly controlled, and one that has a specific brain chemistry
problem, like but not even schizophrenia going away?

I can see how the former would be a good thing, but I can see how as Mike was arguing, the later would be a prescription for disaster. Not unless you could show me a IEP for that student, and show that she had a structure set up for her to succeed, in that particular college environment.

But, interestingly enough, the girl went to two private, Catholic colleges, where benefits from ADA do not exist. We are all familiar with a high profile recruit that chose to not attend UND for a public school where these services are provided, so the proof is in the pudding. UND, SMC, and UofD are all Catholic schools. And as good as they are for students that excel in the mainstream, they may not be good choices for those with any kind of special needs.

The whole reason they needed something they didn't have with Lizzy is minor sexual battery in Indiana requires, fondling, plus excitement leading to erection, plus threats or inability to consent. Since there was no threat ever described during the incident, the prosecutor had to assume that Lizzy could not consent, ie., that she had a mental illness or defect. It wasn't just the fondling and excitement, the prosecution needed Lizzy to demonstrate that she was mentally incapable of making the decision. In other words . . . And that is the reason her suicide ended any chance of prosecution.
 
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illmatic630

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28m0086.png


is anybody going to tune in? I'm in class so I can't.
 

drake29

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Without getting too specific, I know quite a bit from the "Seeberg" from firsthand sources. I can PM you details if you want.

She had a disastrous semester at Dayton and never, ever should've gone back off to college. It was completely irresponsible.

There is a completely untold, undiscussed half of this story that explains why Lizzy Seeberg is dead and it has basically nothing at all to do with Prince Shembo allegedly trying to get to 2nd base.

Can you PM me the details please?
TIA
 
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