'11 CA DE/OT Troy Niklas (Signed Notre Dame LOI)

wizards8507

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Yes? The whole point is that people think he should've come back? And that this decision isn't in anyone's best interest?

How many Stanford players leave without their degree? Stanford is the most consistent winning football team over the past 4 seasons in college football. The other end of the spectrum is Alabama. Nobody expects EVERYONE to stay until the end of their eligibility, but small classes + player development is how ND is going to win. ND cannot do the Alabama model. It does not work for how ND is set up as a school.

He's not "selfish" (well, philosophically EVERYONE who has ever lived is "selfish" so I hate that term) but he is/was clearly football-first in the sense that he saw ND as an audition for the league and not much past that. There is no way you can justify this move unless you less weight on wanting to play another season + a degree + the upside of improving draft stock than on the hypothetical financial upside of another year as a pro (which is a risky proposition).

I'm not really sure which part of this I want to address... so I'll just say that yes, the two situations are quite different, and that's why you have different reactions.

I agree with you, and this is the part that I have a problem with. Some recruits see college football as the minor leagues of the NFL. What I don't understand is why a guy who DOES have that mentality would even come to Notre Dame in the first place. Is ND being sold as a "pro factory" in our recruiting pitches? If so, I'm not sure how I feel about it. It flies in the face of the whole "RKG" thing. It's either one or the other but it seems like BK or SOMEBODY is speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
 

RDU Irish

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So we could have 4 go in the first two rounds. When is the last time that happened?

On the 4th and 5th year players on the field, I would think BK wants a balanced roster that has probably 3/4ths or more of your starters upperclassmen well groomed in the system. The other 1/4th would be underclassmen that are too good to keep off the field. 2 or 3 guys on offense or defense out there on pure ability and the other 8 or 9 able to keep them in the right position to succeed and clean up their mistakes.

Big difference in the mental and physical maturity of a 18-19 year olds and 21 - 22 year olds. I would also guess that more 5 star players expect a three year plan more than a five year plan. That is where early enrollment and summer school with a clear path to a degree in three years helps for those that actually want a degree (call it the Clausen plan).
 

ND NYC

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looks like troy is/was convinced he's going to go in the 2nd round...depsite the "2nd thru 4th" grade he was told.

anyone remember when darius walker left early and charlies presser with him? Charlie was an NFL guy...he knew at that table DW had made the wrong move.

really hope Troy not disappointed and has "declare early remorse" if he slips past the second round which was clearly the determination he and his family made with others help as to where he would go.
(im sure he remembers the clausen swoon as well)

IrishIllustrated.com - Niklas declares for NFL draft

"Upon the tight end's arrival home in California after the bowl game, Don Niklas said his son planned to return to Notre Dame this spring. Then the family began breaking down the pros and cons of declaring for the draft, similarly to how they decided between Notre Dame and USC at the end of the recruiting process.

Don Niklas said the change of heart for Niklas was the information gathered by breaking down the salary structure of the NFL and consulting with contacts with experience at the next level including Tyler Eifert and Bill Rees, the father of former Irish quarterback Tommy Rees."Money wasn't the focal point, but it was certainly a point," Don Niklas said. "He got a consensus grade of being as high as a second round pick and typically teams are conservative.

"There are very few tight ends who have gone in the draft in the Top 10 and the Top 10 is where the money is. If you take the Top 10 out of the salary calculation, then going 21st in the draft isn't terribly different than going in the second round at No. 34. We crunched the numbers."
 
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#1rish

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IrishIllustrated.com - Niklas declares for NFL draft

"Upon the tight end's arrival home in California after the bowl game, Don Niklas said his son planned to return to Notre Dame this spring. Then the family began breaking down the pros and cons of declaring for the draft, similarly to how they decided between Notre Dame and USC at the end of the recruiting process.

Don Niklas said the change of heart for Niklas was the information gathered by breaking down the salary structure of the NFL and consulting with contacts with experience at the next level including Tyler Eifert and Bill Rees, the father of former Irish quarterback Tommy Rees.

"Money wasn't the focal point, but it was certainly a point," Don Niklas said. "He got a consensus grade of being as high as a second round pick and typically teams are conservative.

"There are very few tight ends who have gone in the draft in the Top 10 and the Top 10 is where the money is. If you take the Top 10 out of the salary calculation, then going 21st in the draft isn't terribly different than going in the second round at No. 34. We crunched the numbers."


Wut
 

dublinirish

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I dont really get Don Niklas' reasoning. from all accounts the family is super wealthy so why is the money a big deal for them? Wouldn't a priceless senior (potentially as captain) at ND be more valuable to them?
 

wizards8507

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IrishIllustrated.com - Niklas declares for NFL draft

"Upon the tight end's arrival home in California after the bowl game, Don Niklas said his son planned to return to Notre Dame this spring. Then the family began breaking down the pros and cons of declaring for the draft, similarly to how they decided between Notre Dame and USC at the end of the recruiting process.

Don Niklas said the change of heart for Niklas was the information gathered by breaking down the salary structure of the NFL and consulting with contacts with experience at the next level including Tyler Eifert and Bill Rees, the father of former Irish quarterback Tommy Rees.

"Money wasn't the focal point, but it was certainly a point," Don Niklas said. "He got a consensus grade of being as high as a second round pick and typically teams are conservative.

"There are very few tight ends who have gone in the draft in the Top 10 and the Top 10 is where the money is. If you take the Top 10 out of the salary calculation, then going 21st in the draft isn't terribly different than going in the second round at No. 34. We crunched the numbers."

What's with the meddling father? Did y'all consult daddy senior year when you were interviewing for jobs?

EDIT: Yeah, most people probably CONSULTED their parents, but it reads like Don here is pulling all the strings.
 
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Ironman8

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He's saying that Troy realizes he will never be the type of TE that goes in the top 10, like a Vernon Davis, and after analyzing what a second rounder makes (where they think he will go) and what a late first rounder makes (where they think he could go if he came back to improve his stock) they think the difference is negligible.

The would rather take the small hit in the 2nd vs. 1st round equation rather than I guess risk him getting hurt or having another scenario where his stock drops from where it is now. I think getting the degree and coming back is worth that, but they don't, and the logic isn't horrible.
 

tdbaum1

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Welcome to the big time boys. Bama just had 3 players declare early, who will all be first rounders. They have dealt with this for a half decade.

Only here could we be in a full blown fucking meltdown after after losing a TE and high school recruit.

Buck up fellas. Isn't this what we wanted all along? NFL caliber recruits?

THIS! I was going to say something like this before you so eloquently stated it. It kinda reminds me of the same conversation about OC's and DC's leaving. It sucks but its a sign of a good program. These things are built from the bottom up. Our recruits and underclassmen should be good enough to step in without much let down, if any. Just thinking about how many ND players from this class are going to play pro ball gets me excited. Our caliber of player and player development is getting really good!
 

PLACforever

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As a ND fan, and a Nikas fan, I hate this.
Unless the Giants draft him, then this is the best.
 

RDU Irish

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Consensus as high as? Talk about torturing statistics. What is the high grade, low grade and median and how many teams submitted a grade? Not that they have to share this but that would be the important metrics more than the highest possible.

The better question would be to compare mid second round to late third round deals or even fourth round, IMO. So much time spent on the best case scenario and so little on the worst. Wasn't Clausen a "consensus" first rounder?
 

wizards8507

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Buck up fellas. Isn't this what we wanted all along? NFL caliber recruits?
Is that really what you've "wanted all along"? Guys who go pro? Why do you even like Notre Dame football? Just go be an SEC-SEC-SEC fan. Seriously, I want to know. If the things that make Notre Dame allegedly "different" are the things you have a problem with, then what's the point?

THIS! I was going to say something like this before you so eloquently stated it. It kinda reminds me of the same conversation about OC's and DC's leaving. It sucks but its a sign of a good program. These things are built from the bottom up. Our recruits and underclassmen should be good enough to step in without much let down, if any. Just thinking about how many ND players from this class are going to play pro ball gets me excited. Our caliber of player and player development is getting really good!
And our player retention is getting really bad. Recruiting and developing talent isn't much good if they never actually PLAY for you once they've peaked.
 

dublinirish

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Consensus as high as? Talk about torturing statistics. What is the high grade, low grade and median and how many teams submitted a grade? Not that they have to share this but that would be the important metrics more than the highest possible.

The better question would be to compare mid second round to late third round deals or even fourth round, IMO. So much time spent on the best case scenario and so little on the worst. Wasn't Clausen a "consensus" first rounder?

i think when Clausen was given his draft grade he probably bought some Florida Swampland with it! Worst of all time has to be Darius Walker, what the flip was he doing leaving early..
 

NDohio

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Yes? The whole point is that people think he should've come back? And that this decision isn't in anyone's best interest?



How many Stanford players leave without their degree? Stanford is the most consistent winning football team over the past 4 seasons in college football. The other end of the spectrum is Alabama. Nobody expects EVERYONE to stay until the end of their eligibility, but small classes + player development is how ND is going to win. ND cannot do the Alabama model. It does not work for how ND is set up as a school.



He's not "selfish" (well, philosophically EVERYONE who has ever lived is "selfish" so I hate that term) but he is/was clearly football-first in the sense that he saw ND as an audition for the league and not much past that. There is no way you can justify this move unless you less weight on wanting to play another season + a degree + the upside of improving draft stock than on the hypothetical financial upside of another year as a pro (which is a risky proposition).




I'm not really sure which part of this I want to address... so I'll just say that yes, the two situations are quite different, and that's why you have different reactions.


OK - so we don't expect everybody to leave. Tuitt was probably a bad example because of his draft status. Why is there a bigger outcry for Troy leaving than GAIII leaving? It's because everybody knows that Troy would have been a bigger part of next year's team. The reaction is a FOOTBALL reaction, not a ND degree reaction.
Ultimately I want ND to play in the NCG. Doing it the Stanford way will not achieve that.


Should we have recruited Troy or football-first players like him(I have no idea how good of a student he was)? If not, will that help us get to a NCG?


I don't mean to sound like Pat here(WOW just the thought of that almost made me pass out), but I do want to play and win the playoffs. I am a fan of the way ND does things. I love that the athletes also have to be students. But, if we recruit good student-athletes that happen to leave early to pursue their chosen profession, how much does that hurt the ND Brand? Will that scenario cause you to lose some of your fandom?
 
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PANDFAN

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Frank Fraklin II/AP
When it was revealed that Notre Dame asked for an NFL draft evaluation for Troy Niklas, the junior tight end seemed almost as surprised as anyone else, not quite processing what it might mean nor giving it much weight at all.
"I'm pretty sure I'm coming back," Niklas said on Dec. 21.
He's not, after all. Niklas will bypass his senior season and enter the NFL draft, the player and his father, Don, first told SI.com on Thursday night.
Niklas received a second-round grade from the NFL Draft Advisory board after a junior season in which he blossomed as an every-down tight end, catching 32 passes for 498 yards and five touchdowns. At 6-foot-7, 270 pounds, Niklas is a specimen nicknamed "Hercules" by teammates, though no one was expecting him to make the leap.
"He thought he was physically developed enough to make it happen," Don Niklas told SI.com in a phone interview. "He's currently working out with a guy who's probably going to go in the top 5 of the Draft. And in his functional movement testing, he and that guy came out with the same score. He just felt like it was time to make the move. There are as many as 24 teams that are looking to pick up tight ends this year.
"He's got a unique ability to block as well as catch the ball. And a lot of the guys who are in the draft are more pass-catchers than they are blockers. In the NFL scheme, a lot of teams are going to two tight end sets and you have to have a guy who's a very good blocker, number one. And number two, he's got very soft hands. He can go up there and catch the ball."
In a statement first released to SI.com, Troy Niklas indicated it wasn't a knee-jerk process that led to the decision. His father likened it to choosing between Notre Dame and USC out of high school, in which the family had five different categories of factors they considered.
"I have made the very difficult decision to pursue my childhood dream and will enter the 2014 NFL Draft," Troy Niklas said. "I have thoroughly enjoyed my Notre Dame experience and want to thank the University, coach (Brian) Kelly, my teammates, the football staff, administration and my teachers, as well as all of my friends and the entire Notre Dame community for providing this Southern California native with the experience of a lifetime.
"While I will miss being part of the team next year, I will always be part of the Notre Dame family and look forward to returning to earn my degree from the greatest university in the country."
Longevity factored into the decision, Don Niklas said. As did the notion that a second NFL contract is where a player makes his money anyway -- and being drafted in the second or even third round just means one less option year a franchise holds over a player before he gets to that next deal.
And the late-season development of Ben Koyack enabled Niklas to leave with a clear conscience, his father said.
"One of the things that was real important to him, he wanted to make sure he wouldn't leave Notre Dame in the lurch," Don Niklas said. "Knowing Ben Koyack was coming back, that was taken into consideration in the process. He doesn't want to leave his alma mater high and dry. Ben is primed to take that spot. You've got (sophomore-to-be) Mike Heuerman, that kid is a strong kid, a good kid, that kid knows what he's doing... Troy feels knowing these guys are in the works, and the level of their talent, that Notre Dame would still be left in a good spot."

How good remains to be seen, given that the Irish now lost a linchpin defender (defensive end Stephon Tuitt), receiver (Niklas) and regular backfield contributor (George Atkinson III) all to early-exit decisions for the draft. When also considering that the Irish must replace coordinators on both sides of the ball and deal with the absence of leading returning receiver DaVaris Daniels for the spring semester due to academic issues, it seems much more like another offseason teeming with problems instead of progress for Notre Dame.


Read More: Notre Dame tight end Troy Niklas declares for 2014 NFL draft - College Football - Brian Hamilton - SI.com
 

IrishLax

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He's saying that Troy realizes he will never be the type of TE that goes in the top 10, like a Vernon Davis, and after analyzing what a second rounder makes (where they think he will go) and what a late first rounder makes (where they think he could go if he came back to improve his stock) they think the difference is negligible.

The would rather take the small hit in the 2nd vs. 1st round equation rather than I guess risk him getting hurt or having another scenario where his stock drops from where it is now. I think getting the degree and coming back is worth that, but they don't, and the logic isn't horrible.

Yeah, the crux of all of this is that he was advised that he will be drafted in the second round (and it seems like early second round at that). If that is actually the case, then I would 100% agree that he should go pro if he's looking out for his best financial interest and isn't putting subjective weight on other factors.

However, objectively speaking, I do not think most people actually feel that he will be picked in the high second round of this year's loaded TE draft. That's where this barge hits a reef.
 

IrishLax

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OK - so we don't expect everybody to leave. Tuitt was probably a bad example because of his draft status. Why is their a bigger outcry for Troy leaving than GAIII leaving? It's because everybody knows that Troy would have been a bigger part of next year's team. The reaction is a FOOTBALL reaction, not a ND degree reaction.
Ultimately I want ND to play in the NCG. Doing it the Stanford way will not achieve that.

This is a good question. Is it because people just don't really care about GAIII and expected him to ride the pine next year? Maybe. I think that's a big part of it.

Should we have recruited Troy or football-first players like him(I have no idea how good of a student he was)? If not, will that help us get to a NCG?

I don't mean to sound like Pat here(WOW just the thought of that almost made me pass out), but I do want to play and win the playoffs. I am a fan of the way ND does things. I love that the athletes also have to be students. But, if we recruit good student-athletes that happen to leave early to pursue their chosen profession, how much does that hurt the ND Brand? Will that scenario cause you to lose some of your fandom?

All interesting discussion points.
 

Ironman8

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Yeah, the crux of all of this is that he was advised that he will be drafted in the second round (and it seems like early second round at that). If that is actually the case, then I would 100% agree that he should go pro if he's looking out for his best financial interest and isn't putting subjective weight on other factors.

However, objectively speaking, I do not think most people actually feel that he will be picked in the high second round of this year's loaded TE draft. That's where this barge hits a reef.

I think he just has to hope a team that runs a lot of 2 TE sets which really utilizes an inline TE falls in love with him and takes him there. All it takes is one team to make it worth it. Gmen are one team I could see grabbing him in the early to mid 2nd round.
 

gkIrish

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I think he just has to hope a team that runs a lot of 2 TE sets which really utilizes an inline TE falls in love with him and takes him there. All it takes is one team to make it worth it. Gmen are one team I could see grabbing him in the early to mid 2nd round.

Yup he would actually be a perfect fit.
 

wizards8507

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Why is their a bigger outcry for Troy leaving than GAIII leaving?

For me, at least, it's partly because GAIII didn't REPEATEDLY say he was staying. Troy and family did. That makes me think it's something more than "I'm gonna look out for me, and I'm gonna get mine."

I don't like the GAIII situation either, for the record. It sounds like a coach and a player in a teenage-girl bitchfest with one another.
 

LoveThee

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I think he just has to hope a team that runs a lot of 2 TE sets which really utilizes an inline TE falls in love with him and takes him there. All it takes is one team to make it worth it. Gmen are one team I could see grabbing him in the early to mid 2nd round.

I think the biggest issue here is that he shouldn't have to hope. He could come back next year, get his degree, and solidify his high round draft pick. He's gambling not getting a degree and being a mid round draft pick. How is Notre Dame ever going to produce if their players are content to take a chance on the NFL and not play their 4th or 5th year when they would be making maximum impact at ND.

Its just frustrating that he thinks passing up on everything being a senior at ND is worth the possibility of being a second round draft pick
 

TK22867

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THIS! I was going to say something like this before you so eloquently stated it. It kinda reminds me of the same conversation about OC's and DC's leaving. It sucks but its a sign of a good program. These things are built from the bottom up. Our recruits and underclassmen should be good enough to step in without much let down, if any. Just thinking about how many ND players from this class are going to play pro ball gets me excited. Our caliber of player and player development is getting really good!

I second this motion.

Cannot believe all the bit&hing going on about this on this board, followed by directions to go cheer for an SEC team. Un-freaking believable.

What lies below the surface here is the whole academia vs. athletics debate.
 

Emcee77

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"One of the things that was real important to him, he wanted to make sure he wouldn't leave Notre Dame in the lurch," Don Niklas said. "Knowing Ben Koyack was coming back, that was taken into consideration in the process. He doesn't want to leave his alma mater high and dry. Ben is primed to take that spot. You've got (sophomore-to-be) Mike Heuerman, that kid is a strong kid, a good kid, that kid knows what he's doing... Troy feels knowing these guys are in the works, and the level of their talent, that Notre Dame would still be left in a good spot."


Read More: Notre Dame tight end Troy Niklas declares for 2014 NFL draft - College Football - Brian Hamilton - SI.com

Hmm, no shout out for Durham Smythe? Kelly raved about him at times last fall. I was expecting him to play ahead of Heuerman, but I guess we'll see.
 

wizards8507

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What lies below the surface here is the whole academia vs. athletics debate.

I don't know that it's "below the surface." I think people have been pretty open with the fact that that's how we're viewing this.
 

NDohio

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For me, at least, it's partly because GAIII didn't REPEATEDLY say he was staying. Troy and family did. That makes me think it's something more than "I'm gonna look out for me, and I'm gonna get mine."

I can see that. Yet, it seems from the quotes now coming out that Troy's family put a lot more effort into the decision. Of course, we don't know what GAIII's family did as they aren't talking as much.

I don't like the GAIII situation either, for the record. It sounds like a coach and a player in a teenage-girl bitchfest with one another.

LOL - you are right.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Good/Bad:

-Toss another letter in the Pot of Gold
-Drop the grade rate down another notch

Is this the direction ND wants to trend? I don't think so...
 

tdbaum1

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Is that really what you've "wanted all along"? Guys who go pro? Why do you even like Notre Dame football? Just go be an SEC-SEC-SEC fan. Seriously, I want to know. If the things that make Notre Dame allegedly "different" are the things you have a problem with, then what's the point?


And our player retention is getting really bad. Recruiting and developing talent isn't much good if they never actually PLAY for you once they've peaked.

In no way am I saying that this is what I want. It is simply the cost of doing business. When you have top notch players this is going to happen. I would rather have this problem than players that don't really have the option to leave and have to stay all 4 years. Again, I wish everyone would exhaust their eligibility, but that just isn't going to happen so we have to accept this for what it is.
 

tdbaum1

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I don't know that it's "below the surface." I think people have been pretty open with the fact that that's how we're viewing this.

I don't know if I buy this argument. These players can come back and take classes to get their degree. It's not like they are just throwing way their opportunity to get an ND degree.
 

TK22867

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I don't know that it's "below the surface." I think people have been pretty open with the fact that that's how we're viewing this.

So what is the big deal?

If you want every player to stay for 4 years and get their degree.....good luck with that. Enjoy the slide back to mediocrity. All other academic institutions (including Duke and Coach K) handle players leaving early just fine.
 

Rudy89

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Fuck! 2014 is gonna be a rough year already and now.... FUCK!
 
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