IrishJayhawk
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And our second team guys aren't as good as two of the best D-linemen in the nation (also ours).
ND Oversold on Kelly?
- Thread starter CarrollVermin
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And our second team guys aren't as good as two of the best D-linemen in the nation (also ours).
ickythump1225
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Yeah all of those freshman suck man...Folston, Jaylon Smith, Cole Luke, Corey Robinson, Will Fuller, etc. what a horrid group of undeveloped turds. I'm not sure how BK has won 35 games at ND so far because he can't recruit, can't coach...hell he might not even be able to tie his own shoes!
SoJerseyIrish
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Anybody remember the names, Weis, Willingham and Davie?? 
I feel a lot better about this team with BK at the helm, that is all I have to say.
I feel a lot better about this team with BK at the helm, that is all I have to say.
IrishJayhawk
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Anybody remember the names, Weis, Willingham and Davie??
I feel a lot better about this team with BK at the helm, that is all I have to say.
I remember Weis. Whatever happened to him, anyway?
*sigh*
Junkhead
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The USMC actually won the battle (siege) of Khe Sanh, before deciding to abandon the base. It was mostly due to USAF B-52 strikes though. It was a distraction, the NVA drawing up forces towards the DMZ to take forces away from the Tet attacks of 1968. Why the hell am I talking about the Vietnam war in a Brian Kelly thread....
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kmoose
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The USMC actually won the battle (siege) of Khe Sanh, before deciding to abandon the base. It was mostly due to USAF B-52 strikes though. It was a distraction, the NVA drawing up forces towards the DMZ to take forces away from the Tet attacks of 1968. Why the hell am I talking about the Vietnam war in a Brian Kelly thread....
Well, both sides do claim victory at Khe Sanh. But how about Chosin Reservoir?
To answer your question: because you are not a one-trick pony!
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Cackalacky
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I'll just add that the freshmen playing now are better than the upperclassmen BK recruited so we are actually regressing.
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Bogtrotter07
Guest
Chosin was an example of three things: a combined multiple service (and country force) with leadership that didn't know its *** from a hole in the ground; the sacrifice of about 4,000 Marines; and the destruction of 50,000 to 100,000 Chinese troops by those Marines! That was a UN loss with the Marines taking the brunt of the effort to save the entire UN force. And destroy the Chinese. They hurt the Chinese so bad that it took two years to reform two of the ten divisions the Chinese used in the battle.
In the '80's and '90's I worked it IT with a couple of large companies that were doing deals with the Chinese, so we had a bunch of workers over to train. They were all real nice guys for spies (kidding). But they all talked about what happened in Korea. The Chinese people were all changed by Korean losses to the US forces, like we were in Viet Nam. I remember a guy who was from Manchuria who said, every family lost someone.
This is an interesting summary from another thread about what others said about different freshmen players this year.
Brian Kelly handling freshmen this year:
1) Jaylon Smith - several of the coaches the post most knowledgably on other threads all say the same thing, they dumbed the defense down so Jaylon Smith could run. Seriously, I have a friend who has a membership to two different sites and this pretty damned close to a quote. I am taking this to another thread : complex defense retards intelligent first year starter after Bill Belichick warned Kelly to have Diaco simplify.
2) Tarean Folston seems to explode on the scene with 140 yards in game 9. It turns out that Folston's hold back wasn't learning the offense. It turns out he started camp still healing from some injuries and got bruised up right off of the bat. Getting healthy over that postponed his coming out.
3) Max Redfield is developing further before he gets playing time. It looks like the preferred quality in a Free Safety is the ability to be able to set up and communicate coverages to the other db's.
Each of these requires a different level of understanding, the running back seems to require the least, then Jaylon's position, which is hard to tell because of the fact that they may have adapted his out of need and due to his obviously superior talent. And finally it seems that the Irish will play intelligence and experience over athleticism and youth by a wide margin at safety.
I think this what everyone in this thread agrees upon proves a number of things; that Kelly is a superior strategist and a superior administrator. Kelly is just what ND needed, a coach that could put the right processes in place to turn 20 years of mediocrity back into a winning statement. I believe everybody agreed on this point.
One of the greatest successes Kelly and staff have had is recruiting. As many have said the '13 class is outstanding, and as someone said the '14 class could be better! More proof that Kelly can run a system.
But then we run into road blocks for superior athletes to get playing time, even when we are short on bodies. Why? Where? And does it really come down to defense. There was a really spirited conversation about MSU's defense versus Notre Dame's. Narduzzi versus Diaco. It made a good read.
All I am saying is if I was asked for advice, and I never will be, Kelly needs to strengthen the tactical superiority of certain key assistants. And firing isn't the only way. A good manager doesn't need to fire very often, they can redirect, or charge subordinates with tasks that will redirect efforts in a more successful direction. That may be warranted in the Irish's situation to make it to the top. Kelly alluded to that same thing in the article about Bill Belichick coming in at Kelly's invitation to examine the program.
The one thing of Belichick's wisdom that was quoted in the article after all was him seeing a need to simplify the system for the players!
On a slightly different note, where is Diaco. I think he is the only one never seen in the Game and halftime locker room presentations. Anyone else notice that?
In the '80's and '90's I worked it IT with a couple of large companies that were doing deals with the Chinese, so we had a bunch of workers over to train. They were all real nice guys for spies (kidding). But they all talked about what happened in Korea. The Chinese people were all changed by Korean losses to the US forces, like we were in Viet Nam. I remember a guy who was from Manchuria who said, every family lost someone.
This is an interesting summary from another thread about what others said about different freshmen players this year.
Brian Kelly handling freshmen this year:
1) Jaylon Smith - several of the coaches the post most knowledgably on other threads all say the same thing, they dumbed the defense down so Jaylon Smith could run. Seriously, I have a friend who has a membership to two different sites and this pretty damned close to a quote. I am taking this to another thread : complex defense retards intelligent first year starter after Bill Belichick warned Kelly to have Diaco simplify.
2) Tarean Folston seems to explode on the scene with 140 yards in game 9. It turns out that Folston's hold back wasn't learning the offense. It turns out he started camp still healing from some injuries and got bruised up right off of the bat. Getting healthy over that postponed his coming out.
3) Max Redfield is developing further before he gets playing time. It looks like the preferred quality in a Free Safety is the ability to be able to set up and communicate coverages to the other db's.
Each of these requires a different level of understanding, the running back seems to require the least, then Jaylon's position, which is hard to tell because of the fact that they may have adapted his out of need and due to his obviously superior talent. And finally it seems that the Irish will play intelligence and experience over athleticism and youth by a wide margin at safety.
I think this what everyone in this thread agrees upon proves a number of things; that Kelly is a superior strategist and a superior administrator. Kelly is just what ND needed, a coach that could put the right processes in place to turn 20 years of mediocrity back into a winning statement. I believe everybody agreed on this point.
One of the greatest successes Kelly and staff have had is recruiting. As many have said the '13 class is outstanding, and as someone said the '14 class could be better! More proof that Kelly can run a system.
But then we run into road blocks for superior athletes to get playing time, even when we are short on bodies. Why? Where? And does it really come down to defense. There was a really spirited conversation about MSU's defense versus Notre Dame's. Narduzzi versus Diaco. It made a good read.
All I am saying is if I was asked for advice, and I never will be, Kelly needs to strengthen the tactical superiority of certain key assistants. And firing isn't the only way. A good manager doesn't need to fire very often, they can redirect, or charge subordinates with tasks that will redirect efforts in a more successful direction. That may be warranted in the Irish's situation to make it to the top. Kelly alluded to that same thing in the article about Bill Belichick coming in at Kelly's invitation to examine the program.
The one thing of Belichick's wisdom that was quoted in the article after all was him seeing a need to simplify the system for the players!
On a slightly different note, where is Diaco. I think he is the only one never seen in the Game and halftime locker room presentations. Anyone else notice that?
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kmoose
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Chosin was a loss. You win or lose as a team. When the team wins, so do you. When the team loses, so do you. The United States Marine Corps is one badass group, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect. They've lost one or two along the way.
T Town Tommy
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A coach's response at another school when asked about developing freshmen players.
greyhammer90
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The guy who said that is an amateur and a fraud of a head coach.
TheTurningPoint
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Great discussion guys.
I do have to say that the biggest downfall of the Kelly era is just bad luck. From a coaching/development/recruiting/running program stance, you can't ask for much more.
In year 4, Kelly doesnt have his QB. He has recruited to how he wants his offense ran from skill positions to Oline and done extremely well. He got his guy in Golson, not playing him his freshman was the smartest move in the book and showed how good of a coach he really is.
Golsons freshman year, as a player he wasnt ready to handle the offense as a leader and as a playmaker. It showed early in 2012 that he was just in over his head a little too much. Off the field, like any college freshman its a hell of an adjustment. Sure, he enrolled early, but spring ball/spring semester is not fall semester. 2011, Golson wouldnt have made a impact on the team to make them better than their final record. Yes, the had QB problems, but a true freshman wouldnt have made any positive difference in that. Then Kelly got anther QB that fit his system when Gunner Kiel flipped Irish.
Roll in 2012, he has his guy. The light comes on halfway through the year, and he truly was the difference in winning games. ND doesnt win Oklahoma without Golson. The ability to spread Oklahoma out, and utilize Golsons legs won that game, and that doesnt factor in the throw to Chris Brown that Rees can only dream of making. (not a shot on Rees) Pitt...Golson put himself in a bind but showed his growth from Game 3 vs Michigan to that moment where he was a playmaker. Then in the title game, the moment wasnt too big for him. The lack of the oline being able to run block and pass block wasnt his fault.
Then the 2013 offseason happened. Kelly lost Gunner, and Golson. Not to mention Vanderdoes who would most likely be getting starting PT right now. And if you dont think thats a big loss...look at the current depth chart at Dline. He lost a true difference maker in the slot in Davonte that he had craved for 3 years bc of poor judgement by Davonte prior to him being forced to leave. Something that was out of the player and coaches hands bc of a previous situation a few years prior. Ferguson wasnt a huge blow, but was a quality WR that was physical at the point of attack in the run game.
All of that is out of Kellys hands. Some people say if he didnt interview with the Eagles decommitments wouldnt have happened. Please. The kid(s) that left would have left reguardless if Kelly interviewed with Eagles or not. Itd be nice to have Anzalone now wouldnt it? bad luck.
A 7-2 record with the injuries, offseason, and youth playing is nothing short of a hell of a job. The fact ND has hope of a BCS game shows you just how good of a coach Kelly is. Does scheme/playcalling/personnel baffle the fans? Hell yea. But in the 2 losses you cant blame it on scheme/playcalling/personnel. The players have to execute and Im sure that every player would tell you that. Jeremy Gallons long TD catch and run...sure the pass happened, completions happen in big games...but 5 guys had a chance to tackle him and missed. Rees knew better to throw that ball before halftime. Oklahoma was just a fluke start. The first INT was just horrific luck. Out of 100 times a Qb gets hit in that situation its a pick 6..what maybe 2 times? 2nd INT was a bad ball but catchable. 3rd pick was poor decision again. Kelly can only do so much. You can tell the players took that to heart. They have worked their asses off all year to get better.
Like Kelly said in his post game speech after Navy....Defense bailed the O out vs USC, and the O bailed the D out vs Navy. Thats a team. Its college football...not every week is going to be perfection or blowouts. Its college kids.
ND is winning games CONSISTENTLY they lost under Willingham/Weis and the first few years of Kellys era. The mentality is changed. You dont see the players giving up, or taking plays off. They battle their asses off and get the job done. Its not pretty sometimes, but at the end of the day they win. I guarantee you that ND doesnt win the msu/navy games under weis. First sign of adversity those kids folded. Only reason Weis won games was bc Clausen didnt fold, and was a gamer at ND. I mean think if Crist had started Weis' last 2 years at ND like some of the fanbase wanted just bc Clausen rubbed them the wrong way?
Another thing...the Pitt TE making a comment about ND is cocky. THATS A GREAT THING. When was the last time someone said that about a ND team? Thats confidence that rubs teams wrong. All great programs have that. Right now osu plays with a swag, SEC schools play with that confidence, ND plays with it. It might not be as visual as those programs, but last year they had a lot of kids that talked and backed it up...this year I imagine its the same way. I hope every team calls ND cocky each week. Its a sign that times are changing.
ND just has to have that trickle over the crowd and atmosphere. Once that happens, ND stadium will be a badass place to go see a game and a nightmare for teams to play at. I remember when bad things happened during Weis years, I knew the game was over. Now bad things happen and I am just trying to guess who is going to step up and make a play.
Kelly has done a damn good job. And according to a few people I have spoke too....that atmosphere is only going to get better in ND Stadium. Its only going to help the program take the next step forward and ND isnt taking steps back anymore. With all that happened this year to be 7-2 speaks volumes. Let the man build!
I do have to say that the biggest downfall of the Kelly era is just bad luck. From a coaching/development/recruiting/running program stance, you can't ask for much more.
In year 4, Kelly doesnt have his QB. He has recruited to how he wants his offense ran from skill positions to Oline and done extremely well. He got his guy in Golson, not playing him his freshman was the smartest move in the book and showed how good of a coach he really is.
Golsons freshman year, as a player he wasnt ready to handle the offense as a leader and as a playmaker. It showed early in 2012 that he was just in over his head a little too much. Off the field, like any college freshman its a hell of an adjustment. Sure, he enrolled early, but spring ball/spring semester is not fall semester. 2011, Golson wouldnt have made a impact on the team to make them better than their final record. Yes, the had QB problems, but a true freshman wouldnt have made any positive difference in that. Then Kelly got anther QB that fit his system when Gunner Kiel flipped Irish.
Roll in 2012, he has his guy. The light comes on halfway through the year, and he truly was the difference in winning games. ND doesnt win Oklahoma without Golson. The ability to spread Oklahoma out, and utilize Golsons legs won that game, and that doesnt factor in the throw to Chris Brown that Rees can only dream of making. (not a shot on Rees) Pitt...Golson put himself in a bind but showed his growth from Game 3 vs Michigan to that moment where he was a playmaker. Then in the title game, the moment wasnt too big for him. The lack of the oline being able to run block and pass block wasnt his fault.
Then the 2013 offseason happened. Kelly lost Gunner, and Golson. Not to mention Vanderdoes who would most likely be getting starting PT right now. And if you dont think thats a big loss...look at the current depth chart at Dline. He lost a true difference maker in the slot in Davonte that he had craved for 3 years bc of poor judgement by Davonte prior to him being forced to leave. Something that was out of the player and coaches hands bc of a previous situation a few years prior. Ferguson wasnt a huge blow, but was a quality WR that was physical at the point of attack in the run game.
All of that is out of Kellys hands. Some people say if he didnt interview with the Eagles decommitments wouldnt have happened. Please. The kid(s) that left would have left reguardless if Kelly interviewed with Eagles or not. Itd be nice to have Anzalone now wouldnt it? bad luck.
A 7-2 record with the injuries, offseason, and youth playing is nothing short of a hell of a job. The fact ND has hope of a BCS game shows you just how good of a coach Kelly is. Does scheme/playcalling/personnel baffle the fans? Hell yea. But in the 2 losses you cant blame it on scheme/playcalling/personnel. The players have to execute and Im sure that every player would tell you that. Jeremy Gallons long TD catch and run...sure the pass happened, completions happen in big games...but 5 guys had a chance to tackle him and missed. Rees knew better to throw that ball before halftime. Oklahoma was just a fluke start. The first INT was just horrific luck. Out of 100 times a Qb gets hit in that situation its a pick 6..what maybe 2 times? 2nd INT was a bad ball but catchable. 3rd pick was poor decision again. Kelly can only do so much. You can tell the players took that to heart. They have worked their asses off all year to get better.
Like Kelly said in his post game speech after Navy....Defense bailed the O out vs USC, and the O bailed the D out vs Navy. Thats a team. Its college football...not every week is going to be perfection or blowouts. Its college kids.
ND is winning games CONSISTENTLY they lost under Willingham/Weis and the first few years of Kellys era. The mentality is changed. You dont see the players giving up, or taking plays off. They battle their asses off and get the job done. Its not pretty sometimes, but at the end of the day they win. I guarantee you that ND doesnt win the msu/navy games under weis. First sign of adversity those kids folded. Only reason Weis won games was bc Clausen didnt fold, and was a gamer at ND. I mean think if Crist had started Weis' last 2 years at ND like some of the fanbase wanted just bc Clausen rubbed them the wrong way?
Another thing...the Pitt TE making a comment about ND is cocky. THATS A GREAT THING. When was the last time someone said that about a ND team? Thats confidence that rubs teams wrong. All great programs have that. Right now osu plays with a swag, SEC schools play with that confidence, ND plays with it. It might not be as visual as those programs, but last year they had a lot of kids that talked and backed it up...this year I imagine its the same way. I hope every team calls ND cocky each week. Its a sign that times are changing.
ND just has to have that trickle over the crowd and atmosphere. Once that happens, ND stadium will be a badass place to go see a game and a nightmare for teams to play at. I remember when bad things happened during Weis years, I knew the game was over. Now bad things happen and I am just trying to guess who is going to step up and make a play.
Kelly has done a damn good job. And according to a few people I have spoke too....that atmosphere is only going to get better in ND Stadium. Its only going to help the program take the next step forward and ND isnt taking steps back anymore. With all that happened this year to be 7-2 speaks volumes. Let the man build!
ACamp1900
Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
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I honestly think many fans, no matter if they even recognize it or not, are still unable to get over the Tulsa game INT… It almost seems to have set up a mindset that some just can’t get over,… with BK and Tommy.
NDWorld247
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I'm sure this has been posted somewhere, but I heard this stat today and I think it speaks to the job BK and staff are doing...
ND is 10-0 in games decided by 7 points or less the past two seasons (2012-2013).
ND was 5-6 in games decided by 7 points or less in BK's first two seasons (2010-2011).
Great teams/programs win close games. However, great teams/programs also don't stumble out of the gates in big games (e.g. Michigan and Oklahoma). We're getting there and there's no one in the country I'd rather have leading the program right now than Brian Kelly.
ND is 10-0 in games decided by 7 points or less the past two seasons (2012-2013).
ND was 5-6 in games decided by 7 points or less in BK's first two seasons (2010-2011).
Great teams/programs win close games. However, great teams/programs also don't stumble out of the gates in big games (e.g. Michigan and Oklahoma). We're getting there and there's no one in the country I'd rather have leading the program right now than Brian Kelly.
ThePiombino
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If only!
Then we'd have 6 months of arguments about the stadium play list. The music should complement the turf and have an accompanying video for the Swartron.
And even worse ... daily reports about the complaint du jour at NDNation.
ACamp1900
Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
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That would be the offseason where ND unveils their new alt jersey... Black.
irishfan
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Ron Zook (who sucks btw) always said programs go from losing badly, to losing close games, to winning close games, to blowing teams out. Sounds so stupidly simple, but you kind of see it with every turnaround job. Considering we're playing with a backup QB in year 4, pretty impressive that we're continually able to close out teams in these close games. During the Weis years, any 1-possession game was just torture. You knew they were going to find a way to lose. I remember in 09 when McCarthy had a game-sealing INT against MSU to allow us to win by 3, I was so, so, so shocked.
We went 9-14 in 1-score games from 2008 through the Mich game in 2011. We're 13-1 in 1-score games since that time. Really impressive work from Kelly. This is the first time since we were all duped in 2005 that it seems like ND is actually on the brink of becoming elite. (And yes I realize how dumb that sounds coming off a 4 point win over Navy)
greyhammer90
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BK could lose every game left this year and he'd have the same record the last two years as Weis did during his best two years here. (The years everyone thought he was our ticket back to the big times.)
We're in play for a potential BCS game run with a second string QB. Our defense is something other teams don't like to face, and the team consistently plays like they expect to win the game for the first time in a long time.
BK is our guy.
We're in play for a potential BCS game run with a second string QB. Our defense is something other teams don't like to face, and the team consistently plays like they expect to win the game for the first time in a long time.
BK is our guy.
Irish Insanity
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No
If he's getting better and better recruits thats quite the opposite of regression in that regard.
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ThePiombino
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Logic. It has no place here.
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Logic rarely has a place on this board. lol
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Bogtrotter07
Guest
Good posts and great discussion guys!
TP : Is part of Kelly's bad luck with certain recruits, those recruits having a problem with a particular staff member? In other words, is some of the bad luck self inflicted?
Irishfan : In Ron Zook's analogy, is the difference cleaning up a remaining deficiency?
There is only one more thing I can think of as being a reason that people are teeing off on Kelly. I love the guy. I think he is as sincere and forthcoming as you are going to get. But it does always seem like there is one more thing. Same thing? No. But one more thing is required to arrive.
I listened to four different analysis of the ND defensive game plan against the option. All agreed on several things. With all the talk, players acted if they didn't know how to handle chop, or cut blocks. There was no consistency throughout the game in player position or responsibility in attacking the option. Slow playing the quarterback was a valued attribute by the coaching staff, when it is a poor way to play the option, (compared to aggressively trying to destroy the quarterback.) Every time (most) the defensive linemen stood up to wait out the option, Navy changed the call at the line to a gap blocking scheme, driving physically superior defenders ridiculously far off of the ball.
So my point is this. If the defensive effort from a strategic and tactical standpoint was that putrid after four years, why?
And if it was that bad for no good reason, is this why Alabama (or any of the really good teams for that matter) took our heads off.
Because I have never seen a championship defense that was executed differently than attempting to tear off the opponent's head and evacuate down their throat. Bottom line, top defenses are opportunistic, violent and aggressive.
TP : Is part of Kelly's bad luck with certain recruits, those recruits having a problem with a particular staff member? In other words, is some of the bad luck self inflicted?
Irishfan : In Ron Zook's analogy, is the difference cleaning up a remaining deficiency?
There is only one more thing I can think of as being a reason that people are teeing off on Kelly. I love the guy. I think he is as sincere and forthcoming as you are going to get. But it does always seem like there is one more thing. Same thing? No. But one more thing is required to arrive.
I listened to four different analysis of the ND defensive game plan against the option. All agreed on several things. With all the talk, players acted if they didn't know how to handle chop, or cut blocks. There was no consistency throughout the game in player position or responsibility in attacking the option. Slow playing the quarterback was a valued attribute by the coaching staff, when it is a poor way to play the option, (compared to aggressively trying to destroy the quarterback.) Every time (most) the defensive linemen stood up to wait out the option, Navy changed the call at the line to a gap blocking scheme, driving physically superior defenders ridiculously far off of the ball.
So my point is this. If the defensive effort from a strategic and tactical standpoint was that putrid after four years, why?
And if it was that bad for no good reason, is this why Alabama (or any of the really good teams for that matter) took our heads off.
Because I have never seen a championship defense that was executed differently than attempting to tear off the opponent's head and evacuate down their throat. Bottom line, top defenses are opportunistic, violent and aggressive.
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Bogtrotter07
Guest
I didn't have time enough to address this earlier. Here is the complete answer to your question. The United States Marine Corps has never lost a battle because in the few instances that they have not achieved an overwhelming victory, they have almost always gone into engagements with incredibly inferior numbers and inflicted many times the casualties that they have taken. All expert sources do not consider Chosin Reservoir a loss for this very reason. They rescued all units and allowed them to maintain tactical integrity, while decimating over seven Chinese Regular divisions!
Or in any of the few cases Marines have sustained greater casualties, they have achieved the intended objective. There is a lot of real estate in this world devoid of imperial European or Asian fascism that has been paid for with American Marine blood! Often the cases where Marines sustained greater casualties are the results of improper planning and poor general command leadership, including but not limited to inadequate equipment or underestimated enemy forces. The reason that one may think these could be losses is that one may not be able to conceive of a force unwilling to not obtain their objective, see Puller, Chesty.
Here are your other choices, and by the way, the British Commander was so impressed with the Marines at the Battle of B*l*a*d*e*nsburg that the only building that was left standing when Washington DC was burned by the British was the home of the Commandant of the Marine Corps:
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Buster Bluth
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bump
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Buster Bluth
Guest
The refs
Crazy Balki
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Get a new offensive coordinator. Martin sucks. If only Gus Malzahn dropped into our laps.
K
koonja
Guest
Without Nix, our front 7 gets pushed around.
By Pittsburgh.
By Pittsburgh.