Players Skipping Alma Mater

Irish Insanity

Well-known member
Messages
9,885
Reaction score
584
They do still walk, just a different route. They do still sing, just regroup first if its a loss. And they do still have mass, its just been moved to a different day and time. They weren't removed, just altered.

Not that I agree with the changes, for the most part I don't.
 

Kak7304

Well-known member
Messages
2,068
Reaction score
361
Swarbrick confirms alma mater policy will remain for 2013 - Viewpoint - The Observer - University of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's College

Dear Students,

In light of the discussion that has taken place since our game against Oklahoma on Saturday, I want to address concerns raised by some of you relating to confusion that surrounded the post-game playing of “Notre Dame, Our Mother.”

The tradition of the members of the football team standing with their classmates and singing the alma mater began during the 2006 season. Ever since, it has been a valued part of game day at Notre Dame, especially for our players who frequently cite its emotional impact when reflecting on their experience as a member of our football team.

As part of that tradition we would, when the marching band traveled with us, also sing the alma mater after a road game. Regrettably, in recent years, our attempts to honor this tradition while traveling became more difficult. Too frequently, especially after a loss on the road, the singing of the alma mater was met with derision by fans of our opponents. We were not, as one might hope, accorded the same respect that we give to the military academies when they sing their alma mater — even in defeat — at Notre Dame Stadium. As a proud graduate of Notre Dame, having to deal with abusive behavior when attempting to sing “Notre Dame, Our Mother” represented an outcome that was simply unacceptable to me. Faced with this reality, I concluded that we needed to decide what our policy would be. Should we sing the alma mater only at home and never on the road? Should we sing it after victories on the road, but after both victory and defeat at home? Should we sing it only after victory?

In making the decision, one of the most important steps Coach Kelly and I took was to consult with the student-athlete leadership of our team. As you undoubtedly know, different Notre Dame teams have different traditions. For example, our men’s lacrosse team enters the stadium led by a member of the team playing the bagpipes, but it does not play the alma mater after the game. Both of our soccer teams sing the alma mater after home games, but our basketball teams typically do not. I welcome these differences so long as they are appropriate and they reflect the preferences of the student-athletes.

After consideration of the matter, and with the input of the student-athlete leadership of our football team, Coach Kelly and I chose to sing with our band as it plays the alma mater only after victories — a fact that I discussed publicly after the decision was made. In this way, the singing of the alma mater honors our University and becomes an expression of solidarity with the student body that we enjoy only after we achieve our shared goal of a victory for Notre Dame — whether that triumph comes at home or on the road.

I apologize for the confusion after the Oklahoma game, but it was understandable. We made our decision toward the end of the 2011 season, but having not lost a home game since October of that year, many of our players had forgotten the policy and half of them — the sophomores and freshmen — had no frame of reference because they had never experienced a home defeat.

Coach Kelly, I and — most importantly — our players are deeply appreciative of the support each of you provides to the football team. Every player who was on the field at the end of the Stanford game last year will tell you that they may not have prevailed without the energy you provided to them as we defended the “student end zone” during that memorable goal line stand. And that experience also speaks to why our team prefers to preserve the special experience of singing the alma mater with you, their fellow students, when they achieve the shared goal of victory.

Finally, let me emphasize how much Coach Kelly and I appreciate the manner in which so many of you have chosen to express your concerns about this issue to us. We recognize those concerns for what they are — the heartfelt view of the best student fans in the country. When, at the end of this season, Coach Kelly and I sit down, as we always do, and talk about what we might do differently in 2014, you can be assured that we will include our post-game activities as part of that discussion. I cannot promise you that, in consultation with our players, we will reach a different conclusion about our approach to the post-game singing of the alma mater, but I can promise you that we will carefully consider the issue in light of the concerns you have raised. For the remainder of this season, however, please do not allow this issue to become a distraction for our team or a detriment to your continued support for your classmates. With your help we will do all we can to be in a position, as victors, to sing the alma mater with you after each game.

Thanks for all that you do to support your classmates who represent our University as members of an athletic team. And Go Irish!

Jack Swarbrick ‘76

Director of Athletics

University of Notre Dame

Oct. 3
 

NDbrbkny

Member
Messages
703
Reaction score
23
Kelly stomps on tradition with something new every season. Alma Mater, stadium walk, Mass, Crazy Train, uniforms, etc. Next year it'll be field turf. Then jumbotron. Then relaxed academic standards. These things may not trigger a big reaction from regular Irish fans but they've rubbed me the wrong way as an alumnus.


what do you mean he messed with mass? and what is crazy train?
 

arrowryan

Well-known member
Messages
14,715
Reaction score
8,917
what do you mean he messed with mass? and what is crazy train?

They changed mass from Saturday to Friday. And Crazy Train is one of the songs they play when the opponent is in a 3rd down situation.

He isn't the only person annoyed by the changes. There are other alumni that feel the same way. It seems like most of the alumni are major traditionalists. People make it out to be that he made major changes, when really he only made changes that benefit the team
 

NDTH91

Well-known member
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
204
Ohhh yes. This is sweet. Well said, sir.

A response to Mr. Jack Swarbrick - Viewpoint - The Observer - University of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's College

Like Coach Brian Kelly and Athletic Director Jack Swarbrick, my wife and I have recently experienced the challenges that come with implementing a new policy relative to post-game activities. Fortunately for us, we now have Mr. Swarbrick’s very persuasive Letter to the Editor to support our own decision regarding how our family’s post-game routine changes when our son’s soccer team loses a match.

For some time, it was our practice to share a family meal after his soccer games — win or lose — but in light of recent circumstances and the wisdom we have received from Mr. Swarbrick’s defense of Coach Kelly, we have decided to cancel our family meal when our son’s team fails to achieve what they set out to do.

The policy shift is important to our family for two reasons. First, we do not want to support failure by coming together as a family when one of our children’s teams falls short. Second, we do not want to subject any of our children (or ourselves) to the ridicule that may come from other kids’ families were we to go out to eat together when our son’s team plays in another city. Since we want to protect our children and ourselves from this potential ridicule on the road, we have decided that for the sake of consistency we will implement one policy regarding the post-game meal, applicable to both home and away matches.

This policy emerged as an issue within our family when, to our embarrassment, our younger children sat down together at the kitchen table last Saturday after their older brother lost a home soccer game earlier in the day. While our eldest son remembered our directives and thus refrained from sitting down with his siblings, his younger sister and brother “had forgotten the policy” due to the fact that they “had no frame of reference because they had never experienced a home defeat.” All they remembered was the incredible last-second victory their older brother’s team accomplished the previous season and the equally incredible family meal we shared afterwards. My wife and I have since reminded them that our family is “deeply appreciative of the support each of [them] provides to [their brother’s] team,” and that our new family policy is really designed to acknowledge and encourage their ongoing support.

We are grateful to Mr. Swarbrick for helping us put our family’s post-game activities in perspective. We have come to recognize that the meal that our family shares after my son’s team is victorious on the soccer field is “an expression of solidarity” among the members of our family that we can “enjoy only after we achieve our shared goal of victory […] whether that triumph comes at home or on the road.” Our unity is not nearly as tangible or as meaningful when his team goes down in defeat, and so we require our children to eat dinner separately on those nights. On the whole, we prefer “to preserve the special experience [of sharing a meal for] when they achieve the shared goal of victory.” Our eldest son understands this because he knows that we are raising him to believe that victory is by far the most important thing. The unity of our family is secondary to the primary goal of winning and subsequently bringing honor to our family. Therefore, expressions of our family’s unity should not take place in undesirable circumstances.
Despite the clarity and conscientiousness of our decision, our other children are still a bit upset with this arrangement. However, we remain confident that this approach is consistent with the general educational mission of our family. We have reassured our dissenting children that we will use the off-season to “talk about what we might do differently in 2014.” All the same, we have also been forthcoming in letting them know that “we cannot promise [them] that, in consultation with [the] players, we will reach a different conclusion about our approach to the post-game [meal].” Nevertheless, they should trust that “we will carefully consider the issue in light of the concerns [they] have raised.”
Ultimately, we welcome the conversation we will have with the players and leadership of our son’s team to determine what might be the best course of action for our family going forward. For now, all of our children know that they must come to terms with the fact that, “for the remainder of this season” our family will solely focus on doing “all we can to be in a position, as victors [to share a meal together] after each game.” After all, this meal is a reward for what really matters: winning.

Leonard J. DeLorenzo
Class of 2003
director
Notre Dame Vision
Oct. 4
 

Rack Em

Community Bod
Messages
7,089
Reaction score
2,727
the entitlement is strong in mr. delorenzo

I've been on ND Vision with him before so I would strongly disagree.

It's obvious hyperbole, but he calls out Savvy Jack and Brian Kelly (D-MA) and told them to stop acting like politicians and start giving real answers to the students and the fans...those people who support the team day in and day out.

Around my family we have a saying..."Don't **** where you eat." Jack and BK took a huge dump on their dinner plates.
 

Rack Em

Community Bod
Messages
7,089
Reaction score
2,727
Much Ado About Nothing

Be a part of the class that witnessed the most losses in ND history and tell me it's still 'much ado about nothing'. For 4 years we stayed and swayed with that team.

We NEVER gave up on them, don't give up on us.
 

NDohio

Well-known member
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
3,060
Give up on you?

If the team starts giving up on the field late in a game, whether it is close or not, I will be concerned. If the team starts slacking in the classroom and no one does anything about it, I will be concerned. If BK starts putting players in athlete only dorms and not have the players be a part of the student body, I will be concerned.

These guys are not giving up on being a part of the student body.
 

Rack Em

Community Bod
Messages
7,089
Reaction score
2,727
Give up on you?

If the team starts giving up on the field late in a game, whether it is close or not, I will be concerned. If the team starts slacking in the classroom and no one does anything about it, I will be concerned. If BK starts putting players in athlete only dorms and not have the players be a part of the student body, I will be concerned.

These guys are not giving up on being a part of the student body.

I meant Brian Kelly (D-MA) and Savvy Jack.

I get the players are following orders but it would make me proud to see some break file on this asinine policy.
 

Irish Insanity

Well-known member
Messages
9,885
Reaction score
584
I meant Brian Kelly (D-MA) and Savvy Jack.

I get the players are following orders but it would make me proud to see some break file on this asinine policy.

I agreed with your previous post and this one. But I'd rather not know if someone breaks file or not as I'd prefer to not lose the rest of the season. Lol
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I've been on ND Vision with him before so I would strongly disagree.

It's obvious hyperbole, but he calls out Savvy Jack and Brian Kelly (D-MA) and told them to stop acting like politicians and start giving real answers to the students and the fans...those people who support the team day in and day out.

Around my family we have a saying..."Don't **** where you eat." Jack and BK took a huge dump on their dinner plates.



Be a part of the class that witnessed the most losses in ND history and tell me it's still 'much ado about nothing'. For 4 years we stayed and swayed with that team.

We NEVER gave up on them, don't give up on us.

I meant Brian Kelly (D-MA) and Savvy Jack.

I get the players are following orders but it would make me proud to see some break file on this asinine policy.

Class of 2011? Same.

I love "Brian Kelly (D-MA)". His politician-ness sums up everything about him that rubs me the wrong way.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4
 

Folsteam_Ahead

Active member
Messages
721
Reaction score
65
I've been on ND Vision with him before so I would strongly disagree.

It's obvious hyperbole, but he calls out Savvy Jack and Brian Kelly (D-MA) and told them to stop acting like politicians and start giving real answers to the students and the fans...those people who support the team day in and day out.

Around my family we have a saying..."Don't **** where you eat." Jack and BK took a huge dump on their dinner plates.

perpetuating the potential division between the student body and the team fails to benefit anyone. i can't believe the reaction of those students and alumni who are up in arms after a single incident involving the alma mater. i don't think it was a good idea for them to skip it, but i also don't think publicly condemning the team, kelly, and swarbrick is the appropriate response. after more than a week of this, it comes off as acting like spoiled children. the years you attended nd fail to magically entitle you to condemn the people who didn't meet your expectations.
 

Rack Em

Community Bod
Messages
7,089
Reaction score
2,727
perpetuating the potential division between the student body and the team fails to benefit anyone. i can't believe the reaction of those students and alumni who are up in arms after a single incident involving the alma mater. i don't think it was a good idea for them to skip it, but i also don't think publicly condemning the team, kelly, and swarbrick is the appropriate response. after more than a week of this, it comes off as acting like spoiled children. the years you attended nd fail to magically entitle you to condemn the people who didn't meet your expectations.

Read verbal diarrhea that Swarbrick spouted in the Observer. It was condemnation worthy.

And I don't appreciate the bolded section.
 

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
16,821
Reaction score
16,085
perpetuating the potential division between the student body and the team fails to benefit anyone. i can't believe the reaction of those students and alumni who are up in arms after a single incident involving the alma mater. i don't think it was a good idea for them to skip it, but i also don't think publicly condemning the team, kelly, and swarbrick is the appropriate response. after more than a week of this, it comes off as acting like spoiled children. the years you attended nd fail to magically entitle you to condemn the people who didn't meet your expectations.

YkoGT.gif
 

MPClinton22

Well-known member
Messages
907
Reaction score
1,180
Swarbrick clearly doesn't understand what the alma mater means based on his letter to the observer, and that's what's upsetting. Its not the victory clog or fight song. So to only sing it after victories is misguided.

This has been made into more than it needs to be, but don't belittle people for being upset about this. The alma mater means a great deal to almost all students and alums, and even many folks who have no official ties to the university.
 

Jason Pham

Administrator
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
320
perpetuating the potential division between the student body and the team fails to benefit anyone. i can't believe the reaction of those students and alumni who are up in arms after a single incident involving the alma mater. i don't think it was a good idea for them to skip it, but i also don't think publicly condemning the team, kelly, and swarbrick is the appropriate response. after more than a week of this, it comes off as acting like spoiled children. the years you attended nd fail to magically entitle you to condemn the people who didn't meet your expectations.

And the years you spent cheering for the football team does not magically entitle you to dismiss the non-football concerns of some on the issue. One line zingers about entitlement do not address any of the underlying arguments made in the Viewpoint article or in any of the posts in this thread; instead, it comes off as well-I-don't-really-get-what-this-is-about-so-let-me-just-make-fun-of-yous. This isn't about a "single incident involving the alma mater;" it's a policy that, for many, actively goes against the values that are intrinsic to the university. For these individuals, the "division between the student body and the team" is the very issue they are seeking to remedy.

If you don't really care about the alma mater or what it means for those who do care, that's perfectly understandable; but it's quite a bit less reasonable to come after fellow fans for their commitment to the values that they associate with Notre Dame and who feel that this change in policy is a deviation from those values.
 

IrishMoore1

Well-known member
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
181
Be a part of the class that witnessed the most losses in ND history and tell me it's still 'much ado about nothing'. For 4 years we stayed and swayed with that team.

We NEVER gave up on them, don't give up on us.

I was a part of that class. This new policy is WRONG.
 

tko

I am Legend
Messages
8,516
Reaction score
1,710
My hope is we don't have to worry about losing at home, ever, but if we do lose again at home in the future, it would be awesome if the players stayed anyway. I'd love to get Kelly's political response after that incident.
 

Folsteam_Ahead

Active member
Messages
721
Reaction score
65
And the years you spent cheering for the football team does not magically entitle you to dismiss the non-football concerns of some on the issue. One line zingers about entitlement do not address any of the underlying arguments made in the Viewpoint article or in any of the posts in this thread; instead, it comes off as well-I-don't-really-get-what-this-is-about-so-let-me-just-make-fun-of-yous. This isn't about a "single incident involving the alma mater;" it's a policy that, for many, actively goes against the values that are intrinsic to the university. For these individuals, the "division between the student body and the team" is the very issue they are seeking to remedy.

If you don't really care about the alma mater or what it means for those who do care, that's perfectly understandable; but it's quite a bit less reasonable to come after fellow fans for their commitment to the values that they associate with Notre Dame and who feel that this change in policy is a deviation from those values.

its seems like you didnt understand my post and that's ok. i actually prefer players to stay for the alma mater. that's why i said it was a mistake for players to leave early. that opinion extends to the policy i would like the program to continue rather than adopting the "wins only" policy.

my post was specifically about publicly bashing the program without first pursuing more private avenues. correct me if i'm wrong, but this was the first incidence of the new policy coming to light. if people are not satisfied with swarbrick's response, why publicly bash him, kelly, and the team?

i see your point about it being an issue with the bigger picture, and that sheds more light on something i ignored in my post. my original point stands, though. why make it such an ugly public affair? why not send these letters to swarbrick's office? if you're upset with someone in your family, contact them directly. if you'd like solidarity by speaking as a group to make more of an impact, write it on behalf of an alumni group or just list the names of everyone you know that agrees. then mail it to the school instead of the observer.

i don't mean to be dismissive. i'm trying to illuminate the line between having an emotional reaction to something with which we disagree and acting like spoiled and entitled children. i want the same policy as you do, but i don't flaunt when i was there or send my letters to the observer to prove why i deserve to be so upset about this. i handle it like well intentioned fan who wants the previous alma mater policy to remain without giving the program a piece of my mind in an open letter. if i want to give swarbrick a piece of my mind, i'll do my best to contact him or use the collective power of the alumni base (who agrees with me) to show the power of our feelings...privately.

edit: spelling and keep in mind that my posts stem from the open letter by delorenzo
 
Last edited:

Jason Pham

Administrator
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
320
its seems like you didnt understand my post and that's ok. i actually prefer players to stay for the alma mater. that's why i said it was a mistake for players to leave early. that opinion extends to the policy i would like the program to continue rather than adopting the "wins only" policy.

my post was specifically about publicly bashing the program without first pursuing more private avenues. correct me if i'm wrong, but this was the first incidence of the new policy coming to light. if people are not satisfied with swarbrick's response, why publicly bash him, kelly, and the team?

i see you point about it being an issue with the bigger picture, and that sheds more light on something i ignored in my post. my original point stands, though. why make it such an ugly public affair? why not send these letters to swarbrick's office? if you're upset with someone in your family, contact them directly. if you'd like solidarity by speaking as a group to make more of an impact, write it on behalf of an alumni group or just list the names of everyone you know that agrees. than mail it to the school instead of the observer.

i don't mean to be dismissive. i'm trying to illuminate the line between having an emotional reaction to something with which we disagree and acting like spoiled and entitled children. i want the same policy as you do, but i don't flaunt when i was there or send my letters to the observer to prove why i deserve to be so upset about this. i handle it like well intentioned fan who wants the previous alma mater policy to remain without giving the program a piece of my mind in an open letter. if i want to give swarbrick a piece of my mind, i'll do my best to contact him or use the collective power of the alumni base (who agrees with me) to show the power of our feelings...privately.

You're right; I read your response as addressing more than just the public nature of the debate. That's my mistake. On the public nature itself, I don't have that much to say. I think a public debate can be healthy. I think writing a letter to the Observer is still keeping it within the family while engaging the community in the discussion. And while it probably is preferable to send a private letter to Swarbrick if you think it'd be influential, I'm not sure how much such a letter would do and there's something to be said about mobilizing the student body, or alums reading the Observer, to put pressure on Swarbrick via an open letter.
 

Folsteam_Ahead

Active member
Messages
721
Reaction score
65
You're right; I read your response as addressing more than just the public nature of the debate. That's my mistake. On the public nature itself, I don't have that much to say. I think a public debate can be healthy. I think writing a letter to the Observer is still keeping it within the family while engaging the community in the discussion. And while it probably is preferable to send a private letter to Swarbrick if you think it'd be influential, I'm not sure how much such a letter would do and there's something to be said about mobilizing the student body, or alums reading the Observer, to put pressure on Swarbrick via an open letter.

i may have the wrong view of exactly how public this whole thing is. nonetheless, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page. i have a gut feeling that the biggest division in the fanbase is the tone of the response as opposed to the preference for one policy over another.

also, one letter wouldn't do anything. 1,000 or 10,000 or more might. i could be overestimate the impact, but i see a flood of letters to the AD's office catching his attention. i prefer this to the rabble-rousing publications tend to pursue. it's not exactly the tribune, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
i may have the wrong view of exactly how public this whole thing is. nonetheless, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page. i have a gut feeling that the biggest division in the fanbase is the tone of the response as opposed to the preference for one policy over another.

also, one letter wouldn't do anything. 1,000 or 10,000 or more might. i could be overestimate the impact, but i see a flood of letters to the AD's office catching his attention. i prefer this to the rabble-rousing publications tend to pursue. it's not exactly the tribune, but it still rubs me the wrong way.


Mr. DeLorenzo expressed his Viewpoint cordially in response to the Viewpoint that was expressed by Mr. Swarbrick in that same publication a few days earlier. Using the student newspaper for discourse is appropriate.

Your closing sentences indicate that the Alma Mater isn't your issue. The "rabble-rousing" (sic) Observer is the axe you're grinding.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Swarbrick confirms alma mater policy will remain for 2013 - Viewpoint - The Observer - University of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's College

As part of that tradition we would, when the marching band traveled with us, also sing the alma mater after a road game. Regrettably, in recent years, our attempts to honor this tradition while traveling became more difficult. Too frequently, especially after a loss on the road, the singing of the alma mater was met with derision by fans of our opponents. We were not, as one might hope, accorded the same respect that we give to the military academies when they sing their alma mater — even in defeat — at Notre Dame Stadium. As a proud graduate of Notre Dame, having to deal with abusive behavior when attempting to sing “Notre Dame, Our Mother” represented an outcome that was simply unacceptable to me. Faced with this reality, I concluded that we needed to decide what our policy would be. Should we sing the alma mater only at home and never on the road? Should we sing it after victories on the road, but after both victory and defeat at home? Should we sing it only after victory?
In making the decision, one of the most important steps Coach Kelly and I took was to consult with the student-athlete leadership of our team. As you undoubtedly know, different Notre Dame teams have different traditions. For example, our men’s lacrosse team enters the stadium led by a member of the team playing the bagpipes, but it does not play the alma mater after the game. Both of our soccer teams sing the alma mater after home games, but our basketball teams typically do not. I welcome these differences so long as they are appropriate and they reflect the preferences of the student-athletes.
After consideration of the matter, and with the input of the student-athlete leadership of our football team, Coach Kelly and I chose to sing with our band as it plays the alma mater only after victories — a fact that I discussed publicly after the decision was made. In this way, the singing of the alma mater honors our University and becomes an expression of solidarity with the student body that we enjoy only after we achieve our shared goal of a victory for Notre Dame — whether that triumph comes at home or on the road.

Since we will only make an expression of solidarity after a win, I trust the band will stop playing the Victory March when Notre Dame loses or IS losing. After all it's not a FIGHT song. It's a VICTORY March.


And somebody tell Hollywood to reshoot that scene in the Rockne movie where the Student Body turned out at 3 o'clock to greet the team ... that had lost. The team would rather sulk in private according to the AD. And Notre Dame doesn't stand together anymore, win or lose. Now we turn our backs on each other and sulk off like the front runners in Miami.

Sad.
 
Top