Is it time to scrap the 3-4?

[Domer4ever]

I've brought it up before that I'm not a big fan of it at the college level and I hit on some of the reasons as to why in the Purdue "post game" thread and I will repost here because I think it's worth some discussion:

- I think my biggest concern continues to be the defense, who was horrendous again tonight. I think the problem boils down to something I have complained about on this board before: the 3-4 defensive scheme. I think it's difficult to run at the college level because of the specialty players you need to run it effectively and not many teams do outside of Alabama and their five star talent across the board. I understand it's implementation is to disguise blitzes and to contain the edge against option/running QB's, but again it's just difficult to run. Notre Dame is getting gashed up front because of the gaps in the three man line which allows offensive lineman to get to the second level uncontested and put their hat on a LB. There are just too many guys getting lost in the wash of offensive lineman on running plays. They are not getting any pressure on QB's because of the three man front and it's exposing what really is a sub-par secondary. Some of our best players and pass rushers (Shembo, Ishaq, Jaylon) are being relegated to this "dog" and "cat" linebacker bull crap where their primary responsibility is coverage in space instead of utilizing their more natural talents and abilities. I think they were able to get away with it last year because of Teo's great season and a schedule that just fell the right way for them. This defense was exposed in a major way against Alabama and that has carried over to this season. Diaco's "bend but don't break" philosophy has broke and this team is giving up massive chunks of yardage and having trouble stopping anybody. I think this defense would be better by simplifying things and going with a more traditional 4-3 look which would alleviate some of the confusion and issues I outlined above. Notre Dame certainly has the personnel to make the conversion:

DE- Shembo
DT- Tuitt (not a DE at 320+ and it shows)
DT- Nix (Day on passing downs)
DE- I. Williams

WLB- J. Smith
MLB- Grace
SLB- Calabrese/Fox

Thoughts on this? I think Diaco needs to better adapt to the personnel he has on the roster and just let them do what they do well. I think running a base 4-3 allows these guys to just play without things getting so convoluted all the time.

 

[Irishbounty28]

You think our linebackers look bad now in space, just think what they would look like having to cover an entire side of the field.

 

[Buster Bluth]

No.

Notre Dame is getting gashed up front

wut. Are we watching the same thing? I think you might be watching Texas.

Purdue rushed for thirty yards. Thirty. 30.

because of the gaps in the three man line

Diaco doesn't normally use a three-man line unless it's third and long. The CAT linebacker is a glorified DE.

which allows offensive lineman to get to the second level uncontested and put their hat on a LB.

...except that they're doubling DL, and the CAT is on the LOS.

They are not getting any pressure on QB's because of the three man front

...except that Diaco is actually blitzing far more this season than in 2012, and the real reason is that Purdue rolled the pocket the entire night or had one-step drops. The pressure is very much there when teams try to be conventional.

and it's exposing what really is a sub-par secondary.

Correct.

Some of our best players and pass rushers (Shembo, Ishaq, Jaylon) are being relegated to this "dog" and "cat" linebacker bull crap where their primary responsibility is coverage in space instead of utilizing their more natural talents and abilities.

Wut? Shembo/Ishaq are almost exclusively rushing the QB. Jaylon is the best coverage LB on the roster. Notre Dame has played a nickle as often as it can because Diaco wants to...wait for it..."utilize their more natural talents and abilities."

I think they were able to get away with it last year because of Teo's great season and a schedule that just fell the right way for them. This defense was exposed in a major way against Alabama and that has carried over to this season.

Probably a fair statement. Notre Dame didn't play very many good quarterbacks last season.

Diaco's "bend but don't break" philosophy has broke and this team is giving up massive chunks of yardage and having trouble stopping anybody.

You're seriously watching Texas film, aren't you?

I think this defense would be better by simplifying things and going with a more traditional 4-3 look which would alleviate some of the confusion and issues I outlined above.

You really didn't outline anything though..

Notre Dame certainly has the personnel to make the conversion:

...it's the same personnel. That's the funny part of this argument.

DE- Shembo
DT- Tuitt (not a DE at 320+ and it shows)
DT- Nix (Day on passing downs)
DE- I. Williams

WLB- J. Smith
MLB- Grace
SLB- Calabrese/Fox

It's the same god damn thing.

Shembo/Ishaq are glorified DEs. Shembo doesn't play in coverage and he normally hangs out outside of Tuitt because at 320 he isn't a DE, he's a SDE. Big difference there. Shembo takes up most of the contain responsibilities, making SDE = DT. Again, same personnel doing the same thing, only with less flexibility.

The WLB is basically a DOG, so Jaylon wouldn't move anyway. Again, it's the same personnel.

Thoughts on this? I think Diaco needs to better adapt to the personnel he has on the roster and just let them do what they do well. I think running a base 4-3 allows these guys to just play without things getting so convoluted all the time.

I'm not buying it at all. I don't see confusion being the problem.

Plus we haven't even brought up that the defense has a unique gameplan for each week, so criticizing assignments is even less legitimate.

 

[NDinFL]

Reps for Buster.

Logical thought is a hell of a thing

 

[Buster Bluth]

Reps for Buster.

Logical thought is a hell of a thing

haha I'd like to go back to arguing politics and posting .gifs, but the tone on the site would have someone thinking it's 2007 again. (e.g. firing the strength and conditioning coach?!) Things need to be said so people stop looking for the closest bridge to jump from.

I'm not the poster IrishEnvy deserves, but the poster it needs right now.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Busta

 

[NDinFL]

haha I'd like to go back to arguing politics and posting .gifs, but the tone on the site would have someone thinking it's 2007 again. (e.g. firing the strength and conditioning coach?!) Things need to be said so people stop looking for the closest bridge to jump from.

I'm not the poster IrishEnvy deserves, but the poster it needs right now.

 

[Domer4ever]

No.




wut. Are we watching the same thing? I think you might be watching Texas.

Purdue rushed for thirty yards. Thirty. 30.

I'm talking about what I have seen from the Alabama game until now. Teams are running against this defense with far more proficiency.

Diaco doesn't normally use a three-man line unless it's third and long. The CAT linebacker is a glorified DE.

They use a three man line a majority of the time and teams are converting more third down opportunities because of a lack of pass rush and holes in the secondary.

...except that they're doubling DL, and the CAT is on the LOS.

Watch the tape. The ends are being single blocked and lineman and tight ends are getting to the second level. The Cat has made little impact at all this year and isn't pass rushing on every down because of coverage responsibilities.

...except that Diaco is actually blitzing far more this season than in 2012, and the real reason is that Purdue rolled the pocket the entire night or had one-step drops. The pressure is very much there when teams try to be conventional.

I don't see a whole lot of pressure out of the three man line. How many sacks do we have on the year? One?! Again this secondary isn't good enough to stay on an island for long periods of time like they have shown.

Correct.



Wut? Shembo/Ishaq are almost exclusively rushing the QB. Jaylon is the best coverage LB on the roster. Notre Dame has played a nickle as often as it can because Diaco wants to...wait for it..."utilize their more natural talents and abilities."

No they are not. Teams are spreading it out against this team and forcing the linebackers to cover guys in space which has been a mismatch. This was brought up by the commentators during the Purdue game. Guys like Ishaq Williams have no business trying to cover a RB or slot receiver. This is an example of what I am referencing when I say...wait for it... "Utilizing their more natural talents and abilities."

Probably a fair statement. Notre Dame didn't play very many good quarterbacks last season.



You're seriously watching Texas film, aren't you?

Nope.

You really didn't outline anything though..

??

...it's the same personnel. That's the funny part of this argument.



It's the same god damn thing.

Shembo/Ishaq are glorified DEs. Shembo doesn't play in coverage and he normally hangs out outside of Tuitt because at 320 he isn't a DE, he's a SDE. Big difference there. Shembo takes up most of the contain responsibilities, making SDE = DT. Again, same personnel doing the same thing, only with less flexibility.

The WLB is basically a DOG, so Jaylon wouldn't move anyway. Again, it's the same personnel.

It's not the same thing! It may be a lot of the same personnel, but they are playing different positions with different responsibilities. "Flexibility" is not working as we are having a lot of blown coverage assignments, blitzes that are not working, and difficulty maintaining gap responsibility and contain.

I'm not buying it at all. I don't see confusion being the problem.

Plus we having even brought up that the defense has a unique gameplan for each week, so criticizing assignments is even less legitimate.

Confusion and players playing out of their comfort zone in a difficult scheme I think is a big problem with what we are seeing defensively.

 

[EuropeanDomer]

YES, but next year without Nix. No true NT and weak ILB's

Tuitt/Rochell-Jones/Springmann-Day-Ishaq

Jaylon Smith-Grace-Okwara

Russell-Shumate-Redfield-Luke

 

[T Town Tommy]

I think it's difficult to run at the college level because of the specialty players you need to run it effectively and not many teams do outside of Alabama and their five star talent across the board.

If you watch enough Bama defense you will quickly learn that they are in a 4-3 scheme almost as much as a 3-4 - the A&M game excluded for cover purposes obvioulsy. They simply disguise it a little bit. For that fact, I think ND is in a hybrid 4-3 scheme a lot too.

 

[kmoose]

Thoughts on this? I think Diaco needs to better adapt to the personnel he has on the roster and just let them do what they do well. I think running a base 4-3 allows these guys to just play without things getting so convoluted all the time.

My thought is that, in order to be successful with a 4-3, you need to have a dominant MLB. We don't have that.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Just bc ND is in a 4 man front doesnt mean its a 4-3. Actually if you break down the defense, ND is primarily getting "gashed" in their Nickel and Dime schemes, not the 3-4. But holding any team under 300 total yards for a game isnt getting gashed. Last year they could cover weaknesses up, this year they cant bc of inexperience.

 

[NDdomer2]

Just bc ND is in a 4 man front doesnt mean its a 4-3. Actually if you break down the defense, ND is primarily getting "gashed" in their Nickel and Dime schemes, not the 3-4. But holding any team under 300 total yards for a game isnt getting gashed. Last year they could cover weaknesses up, this year they cant bc of inexperience.

IMO this is the issue right now. Other than Shembo, Nix, Tuitt there aren't many guys that played more than just last year and a good portion of those guys weren't getting a significant amount of PT then either.

I think the defense looked pretty good saturday sans two screen plays and one coverage bust for TE td at end. (yes those were all killers).

Anyhow, reps reps reps reps. This defense needs all the reps they can get, practice and live.

 

[IrishLax]

I've brought it up before that I'm not a big fan of it at the college level and I hit on some of the reasons as to why in the Purdue "post game" thread and I will repost here because I think it's worth some discussion:

- I think my biggest concern continues to be the defense, who was horrendous again tonight. I think the problem boils down to something I have complained about on this board before: the 3-4 defensive scheme. I think it's difficult to run at the college level because of the specialty players you need to run it effectively and not many teams do outside of Alabama and their five star talent across the board. I understand it's implementation is to disguise blitzes and to contain the edge against option/running QB's, but again it's just difficult to run. Notre Dame is getting gashed up front because of the gaps in the three man line which allows offensive lineman to get to the second level uncontested and put their hat on a LB. There are just too many guys getting lost in the wash of offensive lineman on running plays. They are not getting any pressure on QB's because of the three man front and it's exposing what really is a sub-par secondary. Some of our best players and pass rushers (Shembo, Ishaq, Jaylon) are being relegated to this "dog" and "cat" linebacker bull crap where their primary responsibility is coverage in space instead of utilizing their more natural talents and abilities. I think they were able to get away with it last year because of Teo's great season and a schedule that just fell the right way for them. This defense was exposed in a major way against Alabama and that has carried over to this season. Diaco's "bend but don't break" philosophy has broke and this team is giving up massive chunks of yardage and having trouble stopping anybody. I think this defense would be better by simplifying things and going with a more traditional 4-3 look which would alleviate some of the confusion and issues I outlined above. Notre Dame certainly has the personnel to make the conversion:

DE- Shembo
DT- Tuitt (not a DE at 320+ and it shows)
DT- Nix (Day on passing downs)
DE- I. Williams

WLB- J. Smith
MLB- Grace
SLB- Calabrese/Fox

Thoughts on this? I think Diaco needs to better adapt to the personnel he has on the roster and just let them do what they do well. I think running a base 4-3 allows these guys to just play without things getting so convoluted all the time.

I'm actually working on an article on this very subject. IMO, looking at our personnel, we need to be playing:

SDE- Tuitt
DT- Day
DT- Nix
WDE- I. Williams

WILL- J. Smith
MIKE- Grace
SAM- Shembo

This would allow Tuitt to function as primarily a run stopper still (all he is currently good for) while Day/Nix cause havoc on the interior OL. Ishaq has the most pass rush ability of any lineman we have. Shembo basically already plays SAM and plays it great... in fact, he's probably your prototypical SAM more than he is a hybrid DE "CAT" with his build. Jaylon Smith was born to play WILL in either 3-4 or 4-3. Get Calabrese/Fox off the field and let Grace play the MIKE. He's not going to have the speed/athleticism/play recognition you typically want from your 4-3 MIKE but he'll be better than the alternative.

 

[stlnd01]

YES, but next year without Nix. No true NT and weak ILB's

Tuitt/Rochell-Jones/Springmann-Day-Ishaq

Jaylon Smith-Grace-Okwara

Russell-Shumate-Redfield-Luke

This, to me, is the better argument for changing things up (we're hardly getting gashed on the ground. Our biggest trouble is interior pass coverage and poor tackling.)

Our 3-4 relies on a dominant nose tackle to eat blocks and strong inside backers to either clean up running backs or cover in space. We're seeing now what happens when those ILBs aren't strong enough. We'll see next year what happens w/out a dominant nose either.

But I think our defense is confused enough right now without changing the system three weeks into the season.

 

[anarin]

No.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

No, we just need better blitzing packages. I am convinced that 95% of the defense's issue is poor blitzing.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Tale of two seasons: Thru 3 games, Irish No. 57 in Scoring D. Last year: No. 2. Both Temple and Purdue have offenses outside top 100.</p>— Keith Arnold (@KeithArnoldNBC) <a href="https://twitter.com/KeithArnoldNBC/statuses/379636381665873920">September 16, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

ND gave up 24 points to Purdue.

Cincy and ISU combined gave up 27 to the Boilers. CINCY and INDIANA ST....COMBINED...

Please someone say again that our defense isn't that bad...

 

[irishpat183]

You think our linebackers look bad now in space, just think what they would look like having to cover an entire side of the field.

Exactly. Carlo in the open field??

Opposing teams would love it. They'd run RB flares all night long

 

[Emcee77]

I'm actually working on an article on this very subject. IMO, looking at our personnel, we need to be playing:

SDE- Tuitt
DT- Day
DT- Nix
WDE- I. Williams

WILL- J. Smith
MIKE- Grace
SAM- Shembo

This would allow Tuitt to function as primarily a run stopper still (all he is currently good for) while Day/Nix cause havoc on the interior OL. Ishaq has the most pass rush ability of any lineman we have. Shembo basically already plays SAM and plays it great... in fact, he's probably your prototypical SAM more than he is a hybrid DE "CAT" with his build. Jaylon Smith was born to play WILL in either 3-4 or 4-3. Get Calabrese/Fox off the field and let Grace play the MIKE. He's not going to have the speed/athleticism/play recognition you typically want from your 4-3 MIKE but he'll be better than the alternative.

Oh man, I've always been skeptical of any need to make a schematic change, but I kind of LOVE this lineup. Definitely seems like the best way to maximize our talent right now. I can think of all kinds of interesting variations ... maybe using Councell at WDE on passing downs and Ishaq at SDE on passing downs; Carlo at MIKE and Fox at WILL on rushing downs ... it's got legs if you ask me.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Tale of two seasons: Thru 3 games, Irish No. 57 in Scoring D. Last year: No. 2. Both Temple and Purdue have offenses outside top 100.</p>— Keith Arnold (@KeithArnoldNBC) <a href="https://twitter.com/KeithArnoldNBC/statuses/379636381665873920">September 16, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

ND gave up 24 points to Purdue.

Cincy and ISU combined gave up 27 to the Boilers. CINCY and INDIANA ST....COMBINED...

Please someone say again that our defense isn't that bad...

So disappointing. I was thinking more about the game on the way into work this morning ... It wasn't even that we really tightened up the D in the second half -- it was more that Henry stopped executing. He had some bad incompletions on a couple swing passes (which were killing us), and then there was the pick 6. Very worrisome.

 

[ScooterIrish]

I was thinking more about the game on the way into work this morning ... It wasn't even that we really tightened up the D in the second half -- it was more that Henry stopped executing. He had some bad incompletions on a couple swing passes (which were killing us), and then there was the pick 6. Very worrisome.

I could be wrong but I thought more than once Tuitt or Shembo got into Henry's face that forced the bad throws on the swing passes in the second half. I specifically remember Tuitt on a big third down and thinking "Good job Tuitt, you actually made a play tonight".

 

[Emcee77]

I could be wrong but I thought more than once Tuitt or Shembo got into Henry's face that forced the bad throws on the swing passes in the second half. I specifically remember Tuitt on a big third down and thinking "Good job Tuitt, you actually made a play tonight".

You are not wrong; there was definitely increased pressure on Henry in the second half. I'm probably overstating the number of unforced errors.

 

[PANDFAN]

No, we just need better blitzing packages. I am convinced that 95% of the defense's issue is poor blitzing.

tackling!!!!!

 

[Ndaccountant]

tackling!!!!!

I think it is both.

Against UM, ND had Ishaq blitzing from the MLB position all night. So, the game plan from Purdue was actually quite useful. When ND showed Ishaq as the MLB, Purdue would run swings/screens to the outside to draw LB's towards them and drag a WR or TE across the middle. If the OLB's hold in the middle, the outside would be wide open. If the OLB's went outside, the middle would be wide open.

What ND did this week was to hold Ishaq as the MLB about 50% of the time, thus giving the allusion of a blitz but still playing coverage. Problem was, Ishaq wasn't guarding the middle of the field all that well (1st half) and they converted over the middle. Plus, the LB's over pursued early, got beat, and focused too much on the outside.

Second half I was drinking much more heavily so the details remain hazy, but I think they started to bring in a nickel back (Cole Luke in most cases) to help defend the underneath crap, which Purdue then countered with a TE over the middle instead of a WR. Ishaq in coverage went to the outside, where he was more comfortable in coverage.

In all, I think this was ND trying to build a blitz and coverage package utilizing the same personnel, but putting Ishaq in the middle created too much of a coverage liability. I really appreciate the desire to get your best pass rushers on the field at the same time to mix up where the blitz is coming from. However, I think we need a better person roaming the middle that can both blitz and cover and not be a liability in one area. Again, I said it last week, I think Nicky Baratti could have been that person this year and he could have played that role perfectly.

IMO, we need to fix this by finding a safety that isn't a pass coverage liability, like Shumate was the first two games. Hopefully a guy like Max Redfield can take over one of the safety spots and allow on of AC or MF move down into the LB nickel spot. We really need Max to step up and step in. But without Redfield or Shumate, AC is needed in coverage in the backfield.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think it is both.

Against UM, ND had Ishaq blitzing from the MLB position all night. So, the game plan from Purdue was actually quite useful. When ND showed Ishaq as the MLB, Purdue would run swings/screens to the outside to draw LB's towards them and drag a WR or TE across the middle. If the OLB's hold in the middle, the outside would be wide open. If the OLB's went outside, the middle would be wide open.

What ND did this week was to hold Ishaq as the MLB about 50% of the time, thus giving the allusion of a blitz but still playing coverage. Problem was, Ishaq wasn't guarding the middle of the field all that well (1st half) and they converted over the middle. Plus, the LB's over pursued early, got beat, and focused too much on the outside.

Second half I was drinking much more heavily so the details remain hazy, but I think they started to bring in a nickel back (Cole Luke in most cases) to help defend the underneath crap, which Purdue then countered with a TE over the middle instead of a WR. Ishaq in coverage went to the outside, where he was more comfortable in coverage.

In all, I think this was ND trying to build a blitz and coverage package utilizing the same personnel, but putting Ishaq in the middle created too much of a coverage liability. I really appreciate the desire to get your best pass rushers on the field at the same time to mix up where the blitz is coming from. However, I think we need a better person roaming the middle that can both blitz and cover and not be a liability in one area. Again, I said it last week, I think Nicky Baratti could have been that person this year and he could have played that role perfectly.

IMO, we need to fix this by finding a safety that isn't a pass coverage liability, like Shumate was the first two games. Hopefully a guy like Max Redfield can take over one of the safety spots and allow on of AC or MF move down into the LB nickel spot. We really need Max to step up and step in. But without Redfield or Shumate, AC is needed in coverage in the backfield.

Real talk right here.

 

[Emcee77]

IMO, we need to fix this by finding a safety that isn't a pass coverage liability, like Shumate was the first two games. Hopefully a guy like Max Redfield can take over one of the safety spots and allow on of AC or MF move down into the LB nickel spot. We really need Max to step up and step in. But without Redfield or Shumate, AC is needed in coverage in the backfield.

Yes, I totally agree. I think a little too much criticism is falling on the ILBs and Farley and not enough on the other safety spot.

 

[Domer4ever]

My thought is that, in order to be successful with a 4-3, you need to have a dominant MLB. We don't have that.

No, running a four man front actually covers more lineman and allows the MLB to flow more freely to the football. I always wondered what kind of player Teo could have been playing behind a four man front. The OLB's are more important in running a 43 and I think Fox/Jaylon would be more than adequate at those positions.

 

[Domer4ever]

I'm actually working on an article on this very subject. IMO, looking at our personnel, we need to be playing:

SDE- Tuitt
DT- Day
DT- Nix
WDE- I. Williams

WILL- J. Smith
MIKE- Grace
SAM- Shembo

This would allow Tuitt to function as primarily a run stopper still (all he is currently good for) while Day/Nix cause havoc on the interior OL. Ishaq has the most pass rush ability of any lineman we have. Shembo basically already plays SAM and plays it great... in fact, he's probably your prototypical SAM more than he is a hybrid DE "CAT" with his build. Jaylon Smith was born to play WILL in either 3-4 or 4-3. Get Calabrese/Fox off the field and let Grace play the MIKE. He's not going to have the speed/athleticism/play recognition you typically want from your 4-3 MIKE but he'll be better than the alternative.

Yeah that could be an interesting front as well, although I think Tuitt is a better interior guy at this point and the combo of Shembo/Ishaq would give us more pass rush. But like another poster said, there are so many different things you can do running that 4-3 from a personnel perspective that it would be interesting. Agree on Jaylon playing the WILL. He could be a Derrick Brooks type player for this defense.

 

[IrishLax]

Yeah that could be an interesting front as well, although I think Tuitt is a better interior guy at this point and the combo of Shembo/Ishaq would give us more pass rush. But like another poster said, there are so many different things you can do running that 4-3 from a personnel perspective that it would be interesting. Agree on Jaylon playing the WILL. He could be a Derrick Brooks type player for this defense.

I'd use Tuitt at SDE on 1st + 2nd & short, and at DT in place of Nix on obvious passing downs with Shembo at DE and the SAM linebacker off the field for a DB.

 

[chubler]

I 'd just like to question the premise that Tuitt isn't effective as a pass rusher this year. Assuming we're all watching the same games, he's been doing a hell of a job pushing one or two OL backwards without breaking contain. The difference IMO is that while Tuitt has exceptional speed for a DL, especially a 300+ lb-er, all 3 qb's we've played this year have been mobile, and no 300 lb DL is catching a QB whom is both capable and accoustomed to running. I can remember at least 2 plays against Michigan when Tuitt had a free run at Gardner without breaking contain but couldn't catch him and the secondary broke down.