Bradley Manning Guilty On 20 Of 21 Charges

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Buster Bluth

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Not surprising. If Obama had any moral compass he'd pardon him though.
 
Irish YJ

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Honestly have not followed in detail but read the Wikipedia summary.....

If he leaked info about government wrong doing = hero (which seems to be the case in the air strikes).

Bad things happen in war, but when they do, they should not be swept under the rug if they have nothing to do with national security....

If he leaked info that would compromise true national security = traitor, and should be shot (not sure what the war logs and cables had to say).

If he leaked both = put him in prison now, build a statue of him later....

This guy is clearly a troubled person.... I think he did what he did because he was troubled, not because he was trying to be brave. Classic mental breakdown IMO.

It does however take a brave person to make public crimes covered up by the government. Does anyone on this site really trust that the government is not covering up illegal behavior on a regular basis with only the motivation to save face or further it's own interests?
 
ShawneeIrish

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Bradley Manning is an American hero. He may waste away in prison, but we all certainly owe him a debt of gratitude. He is owed the same appreciation for his sacrifice as are those who give their lives in battle.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Irishnuke said:
Thereby setting a precedent that giving away classified military information will carry no penalty. Yeah, sounds like a swell idea.
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If the government made had concentration camps in which they were killing hundreds of thousands of innocents, but classified it, would revealing that be a bad thing?

Did that happen? Of course not. But where do you draw the line? You clearly draw it differently than I do.
 
ShawneeIrish

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"If Manning receives any prison time as a result of his convictions, his sentence will stand in stark contrast to that of the soldiers who have been involved in alleged U.S. war crimes. After the 2005 Haditha killings in Iraq, where 24 unarmed people died, the only soldier to be tried received a reduction in rank and a pay cut.

Widney Brown, senior director of international law and policy for Amnesty International, said in a statement that the aggressive prosecution of Manning showed the military's double standard on investigating incidents of its own misdeeds.

'The government’s priorities are upside down,' Brown said. 'The U.S. government has refused to investigate credible allegations of torture and other crimes under international law despite overwhelming evidence. Yet they decided to prosecute Manning who it seems was trying to do the right thing – reveal credible evidence of unlawful behavior by the government.'"
 
greyhammer90

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RxtIsU9.jpg
 
Fbolt

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So, giving away data that from my recollection, identified sources that the the USG had in the war zones, is okay? Some have a weird definition of hero. A moral compass comment from the guy who hates police breaking up an underage beer party.

F'd up priorities IMO.

#Angryatselfentitledpricks
 
Irish Houstonian

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Under the gov't theory in this case, if an IE poster had posted one of these wikileak cables on IE (even after they had been leaked), and knew that Al Qaeda checked IE, they would be guilty of Aiding the Enemy.

The only thing that saved Bradley Manning was basically that the state couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew that Al Qaeda had the internet.
 
PLACforever

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I want to hear what the prior service (regardless of branch) IE members think.
 
ShawneeIrish

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Fbolt said:
So, giving away data that from my recollection, identified sources that the the USG had in the war zones, is okay? Some have a weird definition of hero. A moral compass comment from the guy who hates police breaking up an underage beer party.

F'd up priorities IMO.

#Angryatselfentitledpricks
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How dare us pricks feel entitled to a government that does not commit war crimes! That is certainly less wrong than underage drinking!
 
BobD

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PLACforever said:
I want to hear what the prior service (regardless of branch) IE members think.
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He's a traitor, a disgrace to his country and the US Army.

Only in soft, spoiled America would we have people calling this sh!t bag or Edward Snowden heros. It sure gives countries that hate us, lots of hope.
 
greyhammer90

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BobD said:
He's a traitor, a disgrace to his country and the US Army.

Only in soft, spoiled America would we have people calling this sh!t bag or Edward Snowden heros. It sure gives countries that hate us, lots of hope.
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Can we get your reasoning with your opinion?
 
IrishinTN

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If I listed the Irish playbook the week before the Michigan game because Brian Kelly had a few illegal plays in it, what would you guys think?
 
greyhammer90

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IrishinTN said:
If I listed the Irish playbook the week before the Michigan game because Brian Kelly had a few illegal plays in it, what would you guys think?
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Nonsensical analogy. Football and war have very little in common, despite our fascination with mirroring both. Football and foreign policy involving the imprisonment and killings of civilians has even less in common. Also, UM and ND will actually play a game at some point, one will win, one will lose. The US military will never have an open moment with an enemy combatant that will cease all terrorism.

But to answer your question anyway: You ask this on a ND board? The same place that we comfort ourselves everyday by reassuring ourselves that we are doing things the right way, and that is what is worth cheering? I would actually have a big problem with finding out that Kelly was going to cheat the game to win. If I was ok with cheating, I'd be a fan of an SEC team and that would be that.
 
IrishinTN

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greyhammer90 said:
Nonsensical analogy. Football and war have very little in common, despite our fascination with mirroring both. Football and foreign policy involving the imprisonment and killings of civilians has even less in common. Also, UM and ND will actually play a game at some point, one will win, one will lose. The US military will never have an open moment with an enemy combatant that will cease all terrorism.

But to answer your question anyway: You ask this on a ND board? The same place that we comfort ourselves everyday by reassuring ourselves that we are doing things the right way, and that is what is worth cheering? I would actually have a big problem with finding out that Kelly was going to cheat the game to win. If I was ok with cheating, I'd be a fan of an SEC team and that would be that.
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Well, without insulting my intelligence, I wasn't trying to draw an analogy of war to football, for God's sake. I was drawing an analogy to people's view of giving away secret information. Some of us are very loyal to the United States and we have a very hard time with people giving up secret information for any reason, even perceived common good. It is a touchy subject based on our loyalties.

And why would I ask about giving away Brian Kelly's playbook on, say, a UCLA board? Like they'd give a crap.
 
greyhammer90

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IrishinTN said:
Well, without insulting my intelligence, I wasn't trying to draw an analogy of war to football, for God's sake. I was drawing an analogy to people's view of giving away secret information. Some of us are very loyal to the United States and we have a very hard time with people giving up secret information for any reason, even perceived common good. It is a touchy subject based on our loyalties.
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I wasn't attempting to insult your intelligence. I just didn't understand the analogy you were trying to make. I get it now, and though I understand the loyalty perception, I disagree with it. One could make an argument that exposing war crimes and air strikes on civilians is just as loyal to the United States as following orders.

And why would I ask about giving away Brian Kelly's playbook on, say, a UCLA board? Like they'd give a crap
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That's hilarious.
 
pkt77242

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greyhammer90 said:
I wasn't attempting to insult your intelligence. I just didn't understand the analogy you were trying to make. I get it now, and though I understand the loyalty perception, I disagree with it. One could make an argument that exposing war crimes and air strikes on civilians is just as loyal to the United States as following orders.



That's hilarious.
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The problem is that he released much more than that. If that is all he released maybe you can make an argument but he released tons of information that had nothing to do with those topics.
 
greyhammer90

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pkt77242 said:
The problem is that he released much more than that. If that is all he released maybe you can make an argument but he released tons of information that had nothing to do with those topics.
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Believe me when I say that I'm not saying that he should get off scott free, be hailed as a hero, and set atop golden throne of eagles wings.

The reason I am asking for explanations with opinions is because there is a very scary knee-jerk reaction that I'm seeing from people who want him punished. (An equally scary reaction from those on the other side exist, but that is a much smaller group despite their vocal leaders.) Many of these people who would lock him up and throw away the key know nothing other than the fact that he gave away American secrets, no matter how illegal, or that he put soldier's lives in great danger, no matter how justified.

I think he's a criminal. He should go to jail for giving legal military strategies to the world, because I do not believe in a free utopia of information. However, I see few people making this distinction, and I think it is THE most important thing to keep in mind when we dole out his punishment. We SHOULD NOT punish a man for being a whistle-blower on our government and military performing actions that are in violation of the Constitution. But we SHOULD punish a man for handing out state secrets that do not go beyond this line.

As to the soldier's lives being put in danger being "justified" above, I'll attempt to explain my reasoning, though it is difficult because Americans are passionate (understandably) about the safety of their troops. The reason why troops are heroes, in my mind, is not because they fight, but because they stand guard over the Constitution. It's even the first line of their oath as the most important thing that they are sworn to protect. Therefore, if a government whistle-blower must put troops in harms way in order to call attention to a gross violation of the Constitution, I would think/hope/pray that the troops would be willing to shoulder that burden of danger so that the Constitution could be better protected. In fact, that's what makes them so amazing. That's the whole point isn't it? They put their lives at risk to protect the Constitution.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Fbolt said:
So, giving away data that from my recollection, identified sources that the the USG had in the war zones, is okay? Some have a weird definition of hero.
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And yet some hold respect for men like George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney who orchestrated lies to invade Iraq in the first place, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Where are their 30 consecutive life sentences?

Bradley Manning exposed to the world that the US military committed (and did not investigate, let alone punish soldiers for committing) war crimes. For that he deserves a pardon, especially considering US Army Subject Schedule No. 27-1. We are supposed to be the just and free paragon of a country, not the country lobbing drone strikes into sovereign territories, detaining people endlessly, spying on billions against their will, toppling countries for corporations (not just Iraq), etc. We have a weird definition of just.

You don't have any problem with this happening?

The "Collateral Murder" video depicts a US Apache attack helicopter killing 12 civilians and wounding two children on the ground in Baghdad in 2007. The helicopter then fired on and killed the people trying to rescue the wounded. Finally, a US tank drove over one of the bodies, cutting the man in half. These acts constitute three separate war crimes.
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We support a government/military under which committing war crimes lets you go free, exposing them to the world gets you a ife sentence. It's beyond ****ed up and simply not defendable.

The only aiding of other countries he did was allow the Iraqi government to have a reason not to give US soldiers legal immunity, which undeniably saved lives.


Fbolt said:
A moral compass comment from the guy who hates police breaking up an underage beer party.

F'd up priorities IMO.
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I would say it's "F'd up priorities" to spend huge sums of money chasing around 18-21-year olds for drinking. It's nothing short of disgusting that older folks brag about the "glory days" of young mischief while still allowing laws to dish out severe harm to young people doing what the vaaaaaast majority of Americans did when they were 18-20. We allow foolish arguments like "only the dumb ones get caught so I don't care" and "if you got busted, you were probably doing something really bad anyway" to make it easy for us to wash our hands of the problem.

Fbolt said:
#Angryatselfentitledpricks
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I'm a self-entitled prick huh? Ad hominem attacks aren't helping your argument one bit.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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BobD said:
He's a traitor, a disgrace to his country and the US Army.

Only in soft, spoiled America would we have people calling this sh!t bag or Edward Snowden heros. It sure gives countries that hate us, lots of hope.
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Enshrined in the US Army Subject Schedule No. 27-1 is "the obligation to report all violations of the law of war."
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If exposing war crimes is disgracing my country, then I'd disgrace my country at every opportunity.
 
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