George Zimmerman Trial

[magogian]

i reject your reality and substitute my own

Lol exactly.

 

[magogian]

Anyone have a link to a transcript of Mora's trial testimony?

 

[NDWorld247]

Anyone have a link to a transcript of Mora's trial testimony?

Here you go: Google

 

[magogian]

Here you go: Google

Thanks jerk. I've been Googling for a while and can't find one.

 

[connor_in]

Look pal, I was asked to provide my theory of what happened and I provided it. Did I say we should "hang him?" Didn't think so.

No...seriously..what do you want/expect from here? Sorry you didn't get the pop culture reference but that was not the gist of the post.

 

[GoIrish41]

Dude. Try reading the posts and sources. The GMA article is completely wrong. And you are completely wrong.

Second, when I made the challenge, I quoted your assertion that there were 3 or 4 witnesses that testify that Zimmerman was on top before the gun shot, and I said you couldn't prove it.

If actually care at all about this trial (and you obviously do very much), you owe it to yourself to get your facts straight. And not rely on what you think you heard.

Edit: I'll cut you some slack. Mora's testimony is a bit confusing. But, it seems clear that she didn't actually see Zimmerman and Martin until after the gunshot. Although, she did hear the fighting before the gunshot.

You make me laugh. Especially since you added the sources after you posted that is one not three or four. Nice.

You can argue until you are blue in the face. There were 4. Look them up yourself. I'm not your personal researcher. I'm not interested in arguing with you over something that I know is true. Go back through the posts on this thread. I'm pretty sure nearly every witness was talked about throughout the prosecution's case. You are simply wrong, which is fine, but you are so insistent on telling someone else they are wrong that you are kinda acting like a bit of a d*ck.

 

[GoIrish41]

No...seriously..what do you want/expect from here? Sorry you didn't get the pop culture reference but that was not the gist of the post.

still don't get the reference, but answering a question from ACamp was absolutely the purpose of my post.

 

[ACamp1900]

still don't get the reference, but answering a question from ACamp was absolutely the purpose of my post.

This is absolutely true...

 

[connor_in]

still don't get the reference, but answering a question from ACamp was absolutely the purpose of my post.

What to you want or expect from GZ...the state of FL...DOJ...society in general...due to this event.

 

[GoIrish41]

What to you want or expect from GZ...the state of FL...DOJ...society in general...due to this event.

I don't want or expect anything. I don't believe that justice was served in this case, but I accept the verdict and hope that this does not provide a blueprint for people in Florida or anywhere else to get away with murder.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I don't want or expect anything. I don't believe that justice was served in this case, but I accept the verdict and hope that this does not provide a blueprint for people in Florida or anywhere else to get away with murder.

Generally sums up my feelings also

 

[magogian]

You make me laugh. Especially since you added the sources after you posted that is one not three or four. Nice.

You can argue until you are blue in the face. There were 4. Look them up yourself. I'm not your personal researcher. I'm not interested in arguing with you over something that I know is true. Go back through the posts on this thread. I'm pretty sure nearly every witness was talked about throughout the prosecution's case. You are simply wrong, which is fine, but you are so insistent on telling someone else they are wrong that you are kinda acting like a bit of a d*ck.

Hilarious. You have absolutely nothing so you retreat.

"Good's testimony complicates the picture for jurors after two other neighbors testified Thursday that they believed Zimmerman was on top. But unlike Good, those neighbors did not see the fight before the gunshot was fired." Who was on top in Zimmerman-Martin tussle? Witness testimony in conflict. - CSMonitor.com

Yes, some witnesses testified that they saw Zimmerman on top after the gunshot. But none that I'm aware of testified that before the gunshot they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. The closest support you have is that GMA article but it is contradicted by numerous other sources and appears contrary to Mora's testimony (though granted her testimony is hard to follow).

Look, this is why practically every article focuses on John Good's testimony to the near exclusion of the other eyewitnesses. Only he testified that he saw the fight before the gunshot. And he testified that Martin was on top.

Look, if I'm wrong, show me. If you can prove it, I will readily admit it. But you can't and now you stomping of the playground with a "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

 

[kmoose]

Either way. What is this? 1937?

No, this is obviously 2013.............
"creepy *** cracker" = perfectly acceptable speech that has NO bearing on the utterer's character.

"boy of color" = obvious racist, and let's throw in that the speaker is not even worthy to bag groceries.

 

[kmoose]

My theory is that he pulled the gun out at the moment he decided he was going to follow Trayvon into the darkness behind the condos. With a gun in his hand, he confronted Martin and Martin logically viewed that as a threat and slugged Zimmerman in the face and a fight began. According to eyewitness testimony, Martin was on top AND Zimmerman was on top. I believe that is not conflicting testimony and, because there is a long trail of items belonging to both Zimmerman and Martin, it suggests a struggle was more than the stationary scuffle that Zimmerman said occurred with Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk and his body in the grass.

This paragraph explains why I believe the gun had to already be out (or at least it didn't come out when Zimmerman claims) In my view, there is absolutely no way he could have pulled the weapon out with Travon's knees in his armpits (as he described to his best friend the night of the incident), the gun snugly tucked into a holster inside the right, back hip and covered by a shirt and a jacket. If his story is to be believed, he reached around Travon's legs (instead of blocking some of the 25 blows that were being rained down upon him or cushioning the back of his head with a hand to keep Martin from continuing to bash his head onto the cement), under his body and maneuver his hand under two layers of clothing, over his belt and grab the gun, pull it from the holster and pull it back around the body of a man (who presumably did not try to stop him from doing this, even though he was supposedly in a dominent postition to prevent him from using the gun).

If Zimmerman had his gun out when the confrontation started, he can hardly claim self defense. I know it was more than a couple of sentences, but that is the scenario that I think makes the most sense, given what I know about the case.

So Zimmerman had the gun out, ready to rock and roll, before he rounded the corner and confronted Trayvon. But then, for some reason, he let Trayvon bounce his head off of the concrete a few times before he shot him?

Talk about not passing the sniff test..............

 

[Rhode Irish]

No, this is obviously 2013.............
"creepy *** cracker" = perfectly acceptable speech that has NO bearing on the utterer's character.

"boy of color" = obvious racist, and let's throw in that the speaker is not even worthy to bag groceries.

Well that is because of her apparent stupidity. I hate when I get home and my eggs are broken or my bread is crushed.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Juror: 'No doubt' that Zimmerman feared for his life - CNN.com

B37 spoke with Anderson Cooper. There's video

This is what happens when smart people find ways to get out of jury duty and only the semi-racist crazy cat ladies are left.

 

[phgreek]

My theory is that he pulled the gun out at the moment he decided he was going to follow Trayvon into the darkness behind the condos. With a gun in his hand, he confronted Martin and Martin logically viewed that as a threat and slugged Zimmerman in the face and a fight began. According to eyewitness testimony, Martin was on top AND Zimmerman was on top. I believe that is not conflicting testimony and, because there is a long trail of items belonging to both Zimmerman and Martin, it suggests a struggle was more than the stationary scuffle that Zimmerman said occurred with Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk and his body in the grass.

This paragraph explains why I believe the gun had to already be out (or at least it didn't come out when Zimmerman claims) In my view, there is absolutely no way he could have pulled the weapon out with Travon's knees in his armpits (as he described to his best friend the night of the incident), the gun snugly tucked into a holster inside the right, back hip and covered by a shirt and a jacket. If his story is to be believed, he reached around Travon's legs (instead of blocking some of the 25 blows that were being rained down upon him or cushioning the back of his head with a hand to keep Martin from continuing to bash his head onto the cement), under his body and maneuver his hand under two layers of clothing, over his belt and grab the gun, pull it from the holster and pull it back around the body of a man (who presumably did not try to stop him from doing this, even though he was supposedly in a dominent postition to prevent him from using the gun).

If Zimmerman had his gun out when the confrontation started, he can hardly claim self defense. I know it was more than a couple of sentences, but that is the scenario that I think makes the most sense, given what I know about the case.

I know you were asked for a theory...and you gave one in good faith...so I'm not attacking you...

here is where I struggle with what you said.

I cannot get to where Zimmerman brandishes, and still gets his a$$ kicked. Are you telling me Martin sees a gun and PUNCHES ZIMMERMAN, and then, while still in control of the gun, Zimmerman gets his A$$ handed to him, then shoots...that's a no go for me.

I think it was as Zimmerman said more or less...specifically how he got his hand to the gun, and that it wasn't wadded up in clothes...here is my guess...

If you've ever been on top of someone kicking their ***...

then you know, if you are not in control of your emotions, and are throwing haymakers...you can swing yourself into trouble...quickly.

some punches you drop straight down, and when those get blocked, you instinctively go around the block...so some punches are thrown to anticipate a block and to go around hands, and through arms meant to block your punch...and sometimes you whiff, and lose your balance if you are going all "Ralphie"...yep, from your knees, if you throw a punch out around hands and you miss everything, you fall to one side.

So...Picture throwing a left handed punch as hard as you can from your knees as if straddling someone, and the block not being there as your victim is trying to grab his gun with his right hand, and you miss his face...uh oh. You end up with both hands on the right side bracing you with your left leg coming off the ground some. In a moment such as that, it would create the opportunity Zimmerman needed, and as you came back to center balance, his gun lines up with your heart...Boom. Would Zimmerman know exactly WTF happened, or HTF he got to his gun...maybe not. Would he feel compelled to say SOMETHING to explain it...yea. Would he get something wrong in his account...likely.

As well, if the men struggled/wrestled at all...it is far more likely Zimmerman's upper garments rode up his body exposing the weapon for grasping, and also made it visible to Martin...

I do not dismiss the POSSIBILITY that Zimmerman brandished and started the clash...but lacking evidence to assert such, and the implausible nature of getting from brandishing to getting your *** beat, to then shooting...I can't buy that w/o a witness saying that's what happened.

Anyway, I think the Jury got it right if evidence is removed from the sense of tragedy and loss...which is what they are supposed to do....and it appears they've done here.

 

[drayer54]

This is what happens when smart people find ways to get out of jury duty and only the semi-racist crazy cat ladies are left.

What did she say that was racist?

 

[FLDomer]

What did she say that was racist?

Probably nothing Title2014's go to insult is calling people racist!

 

[GoIrish41]

So Zimmerman had the gun out, ready to rock and roll, before he rounded the corner and confronted Trayvon. But then, for some reason, he let Trayvon bounce his head off of the concrete a few times before he shot him?

Talk about not passing the sniff test..............

If you believe that Martin repeatedly pounded Zimmerman's head on the cement, I guess that would be difficult to believe. The tiny scrapes and bruises on Zimmerman's head don't indicate to me that is what happened. Look at the area of the fight indicated by the items scattered across the grass and take note of all the things in the grass that he could have hit his head on during a struggle. Those minor head injuries could have resulted in rolling around on the ground and could have come from any number of things. If the fight from Martin was to keep the gun out of play, Zimmerman's self-defense claim goes out the window. Then again, maybe the gun came out at another point during the struggle -- it is just doubtful that it came out when and under the circumstances that Zimmerman contends.

 

[kmoose]

If you believe that Martin repeatedly pounded Zimmerman's head on the cement, I guess that would be difficult to believe. The tiny scrapes and bruises on Zimmerman's head don't indicate to me that is what happened. Look at the area of the fight indicated by the items scattered across the grass and take note of all the things in the grass that he could have hit his head on during a struggle. Those minor head injuries could have resulted in rolling around on the ground and could have come from any number of things. If the fight from Martin was to keep the gun out of play, Zimmerman's self-defense claim goes out the window. Then again, maybe the gun came out at another point during the struggle -- it is just doubtful that it came out when and under the circumstances that Zimmerman contends.

And that is called reasonable doubt. So, therefore, you must acquit.

 

[GoIrish41]

I know you were asked for a theory...and you gave one in good faith...so I'm not attacking you...

here is where I struggle with what you said.

I cannot get to where Zimmerman brandishes, and still gets his a$$ kicked. Are you telling me Martin sees a gun and PUNCHES ZIMMERMAN, and then, while still in control of the gun, Zimmerman gets his A$$ handed to him, then shoots...that's a no go for me.

I think it was as Zimmerman said more or less...specifically how he got his hand to the gun, and that it wasn't wadded up in clothes...here is my guess...

If you've ever been on top of someone kicking their ***...

then you know, if you are not in control of your emotions, and are throwing haymakers...you can swing yourself into trouble...quickly.

some punches you drop straight down, and when those get blocked, you instinctively go around the block...so some punches are thrown to anticipate a block and to go around hands, and through arms meant to block your punch...and sometimes you whiff, and lose your balance if you are going all "Ralphie"...yep, from your knees, if you throw a punch out around hands and you miss everything, you fall to one side.

So...Picture throwing a left handed punch as hard as you can from your knees as if straddling someone, and the block not being there as your victim is trying to grab his gun with his right hand, and you miss his face...uh oh. You end up with both hands on the right side bracing you with your left leg coming off the ground some. In a moment such as that, it would create the opportunity Zimmerman needed, and as you came back to center balance, his gun lines up with your heart...Boom. Would Zimmerman know exactly WTF happened, or HTF he got to his gun...maybe not. Would he feel compelled to say SOMETHING to explain it...yea. Would he get something wrong in his account...likely.

As well, if the men struggled/wrestled at all...it is far more likely Zimmerman's upper garments rode up his body exposing the weapon for grasping, and also made it visible to Martin...

I do not dismiss the POSSIBILITY that Zimmerman brandished and started the clash...but lacking evidence to assert such, and the implausible nature of getting from brandishing to getting your *** beat, to then shooting...I can't buy that w/o a witness saying that's what happened.

Anyway, I think the Jury got it right if evidence is removed from the sense of tragedy and loss...which is what they are supposed to do....and it appears they've done here.

This is a good post and it is certainly possible that it might have happened that way. The thing that gets me is that there is testimony from Martin's girlfriend that suggests he was trying to get away. Zimmerman also thought he was trying to get away, and therefore chased him into the darkness. You can hear that he is a bit out of breath when he is talking to the 911 operator on the tape. Why would he do that if he claims he was afraid? That is where the possession of the gun becomes important, IMO. Without the gun, I don't think Zimmerman follows Martin at all. That has to account toward mindset, doesn't it? And, if he knows he has a gun and he knows he's going into a dark area to follow this guy who he claims to be afraid of (as implausible as that sounds) you think he's going to do that without making sure he's ready for a confrontation? I find that difficult to believe. So, after evading Zimmerman for several minutes as he was being followed through the neighborhood, Martin decides, ya know what, I'm just going to attack this guy who has been following me instead of trying to get away? Seems unlikely. Maybe if he would have just slugged him and then ran away, I could believe it, but there was obviously a physical confrontation that spread out over a pretty big area. Martin was likely terrified at having some dude following him at night. I acknowledge that it could have happened a different way that I'm theorizing. Obviously I wasn't there, but Zimmerman's story is the most inplausibe account that I've heard throughout this case.

 

[GoIrish41]

And that is called reasonable doubt. So, therefore, you must acquit.

If we were in court and not on IE, I'd completely agree with that statement. If I was a prosecutor, I obviously would have stuck to a single cohesive theory and not deviated from it. We're just a bunch of guys talking on a message board and there is no consequence to exploring various possibilities. It doesn't matter if I get it 100 percent right, and even if I was spot on it wouldn't matter. The trial is over, the verdict is in and I've accepted it. I don't think the prosecution did an effective job of presenting their case. That is all.

 

[kmoose]

If we were in court and not on IE, I'd completely agree with that statement. If I was a prosecutor, I obviously would have stuck to a single cohesive theory and not deviated from it. We're just a bunch of guys talking on a message board and there is no consequence to exploring various possibilities. It doesn't matter if I get it 100 percent right, and even if I was spot on it wouldn't matter. The trial is over, the verdict is in and I've accepted it. I don't think the prosecution did an effective job of presenting their case. That is all.

I think that the prosecution knew this was a losing case, right from the start. That's why it took them so long to file charges against George Zimmerman. I think they were, initially, not going to charge him at all. Probably because they knew that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction. But the furor whipped up by the media forced them to take some kind of action. And now that it has played out like it has, those groups such as the New Black Panthers are screaming "RACISM". The truth is that there was never a winnable case to be made against Zimmerman.

Having said that, I still can't believe that they put the g/f on the stand. That girl was the defense's best witness!

 

[GoIrish41]

I think that the prosecution knew this was a losing case, right from the start. That's why it took them so long to file charges against George Zimmerman. I think they were, initially, not going to charge him at all. Probably because they knew that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction. But the furor whipped up by the media forced them to take some kind of action. And now that it has played out like it has, those groups such as the New Black Panthers are screaming "RACISM". The truth is that there was never a winnable case to be made against Zimmerman.

Having said that, I still can't believe that they put the g/f on the stand. That girl was the defense's best witness!

I agree that the media played a role, but I'm not as down on them for it than many people. Same with the protestors. That is democracy at work. I don't think that I agree that there was not enough evidence to win a conviction -- at least on manslaughter. Better prosecution would have gotten a conviction, IMO. I think there was plenty there for that.

I do think that the post trial coverage by the media is both irresponsible and appauling. They are treating it like a civil rights case, which clearly it is not. I'd be astounded if the Justice Department brought a federal case. I do think that there will be a civil case, and as long as the families lawyers don't push the race angle too much (which, sadly, they appear to be doing) I think Zimmerman loses. He'll have to take the stand and be cross examined, and he'll have to defend against any and all possible accounts of his actions with a lower burden of proof.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Interesting in the CNN interview last night that 5 out of 6 jurors thought it was Zimmerman crying for help on the 911 call. It just doesn't make sense to cry for help while you're whopping someone's @***. You cry for help when you're getting your @ss kicked.

The other juror couldn't conclude it was either of them.

They also thought all the parent testimony regarding the 911 call was basically a wash.

 

[GoIrish41]

Interesting in the CNN interview last night that 5 out of 6 jurors thought it was Zimmerman crying for help on the 911 call. It just doesn't make sense to cry for help while you're whopping someone's @***. You cry for help when you're getting your @ss kicked.

The other juror couldn't conclude it was either of them.

They also thought all the parent testimony regarding the 911 call was basically a wash.

They seemed to have discounted the account that Martin was holding his hand over Zimmerman's mouth and discounted the fact that the screaming stopped instantageously after the shot was fired (even though Zimmerman insists he thought Martin was still alive and that he missed him with the shot). Whatever. Their justification seemed to be that Zimmerman is the one with the injuries so he must have been the one screaming. Maybe Martin was crying for help because Zimmerman pulled a gun out. I know I'd cry like a little girl if someone pulled a gun on me.

 

[NDinL.A.]

They seemed to have discounted the account that Martin was holding his hand over Zimmerman's mouth and discounted the fact that the screaming stopped instantageously after the shot was fired (even though Zimmerman insists he thought Martin was still alive and that he missed him with the shot). Whatever. Their justification seemed to be that Zimmerman is the one with the injuries so he must have been the one screaming. Maybe Martin was crying for help because Zimmerman pulled a gun out. I know I'd cry like a little girl if someone pulled a gun on me.

It's quite clear at this point that no matter what anyone else thinks, even jurors that were there got every single minute of the trial, you are going to take the counter argument and basically claim they are wrong and//or are ignoring important facts. Have you thought that maybe others are actually right and you are in fact ignoring important testimony and facts?

 

[drayer54]

George Zimmerman to Get Gun Back | Video - ABC News

If I were him, I'd sell this thing on gunbroker. I bet it would draw big bucks. I'd bid on it.

 

[phgreek]

This is a good post and it is certainly possible that it might have happened that way. The thing that gets me is that there is testimony from Martin's girlfriend that suggests he was trying to get away. Zimmerman also thought he was trying to get away, and therefore chased him into the darkness. You can hear that he is a bit out of breath when he is talking to the 911 operator on the tape. Why would he do that if he claims he was afraid? That is where the possession of the gun becomes important, IMO. Without the gun, I don't think Zimmerman follows Martin at all. That has to account toward mindset, doesn't it? And, if he knows he has a gun and he knows he's going into a dark area to follow this guy who he claims to be afraid of (as implausible as that sounds) you think he's going to do that without making sure he's ready for a confrontation? I find that difficult to believe. So, after evading Zimmerman for several minutes as he was being followed through the neighborhood, Martin decides, ya know what, I'm just going to attack this guy who has been following me instead of trying to get away? Seems unlikely. Maybe if he would have just slugged him and then ran away, I could believe it, but there was obviously a physical confrontation that spread out over a pretty big area. Martin was likely terrified at having some dude following him at night. I acknowledge that it could have happened a different way that I'm theorizing. Obviously I wasn't there, but Zimmerman's story is the most inplausibe account that I've heard throughout this case.

The gun part...I guess its plausible that he would not have gone w/o it. As to how that then translates to mindset...I don't know. If Zimmerman wore that gun every day, or a lot...it may or may not have been a conscious decision to follow BECAUSE of the gun. Even if I cede that point that the gun was the catalyst to Zimmerman being willing to follow...I do not agree it says anything about his intent to do anything other than ...follow.

When I hear a bump in the night I don't usually go outside w/o a bat or a gun...and I'm sure as hell cautious/scared...and I sure as hell don't want to hit or shoot someone...but I trust me and my judgment over the dude in my shed. The judgment is only mine if I have the power. The bat/gun likely tilts the power in my favor. So if I ascribe my view of things to Zimmerman, I can see how the gun would be the catalyst, and still not speak to any bad intentions.

I'm with you that Martin's alleged behavior is unlikely, on its face, w/o a witness...and there was a witness who seemed to testify he had an opportunity to "go inside". His alleged unwillingness to go inside says what? Maybe nothing...but it makes a confrontation instigated by him a little more plausible.

And yea, I don't doubt these guys tussled a bit...seems plausible Zimmerman might even have grabbed at Martin thus the "get off". But w/o an eye witness, I can't be sure what Martin meant. Seems on its face to be, don't touch me...but I've seen "get off" used in a number of ways including ...go away.

I do think in the civil case, the "get off" part of Janteal's story will be the pivotal point...that is her credibility as a witness in a criminal proceeding lent doubt to the entire situation...maybe not so much in a civil action.