George Zimmerman Trial

[irishpat183]

The only reason charges were even brought was that the media whipped this up into a huge story and the AG of Florida... wanting to keep his job... forced the local DA to file charges. The only way the prosecution wins this case at this point is if the jury is six Rhode Irishes who give zero sh*ts about the law and vote on prejudice.

Exactly....A few of those mob rule people and you have the makings of a race riot. Even though nothing I've seen makes GZ a racist nor a murderer. Just a sad case of two guys crossing paths on the wrong night.

Rhode is outta his mind. As are most liberals (yeah, I said it. Sue me)

 

[irishpat183]

Like I said, I don't think that is all that relevant. If Martin actually was beating the guy (which I am certainly not at all convinced was the case), that is his own damn fault. If anyone had a legit claim to self defense, it was the kid who was approached in the dark by an idiot that wrongly thought he was committing a crime, and who also happened to be armed. Self defense shouldn't mean that it OK to start an altercation with someone for no reason, and then shoot the person when you get your *** kicked.

Explain to me how following someone, checking in to what they're doing at night in your neighborhood, is either racist or asking for a fight??

And explain to me why it's more likely that GZ attacked TM first, and not the other way around given TM's history?

I'll wait.

Completely agree with this

You cray, too. LOL

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Like I said, I don't think that is all that relevant. If Martin actually was beating the guy (which I am certainly not at all convinced was the case), that is his own damn fault. If anyone had a legit claim to self defense, it was the kid who was approached in the dark by an idiot that wrongly thought he was committing a crime, and who also happened to be armed. Self defense shouldn't mean that it OK to start an altercation with someone for no reason, and then shoot the person when you get your *** kicked.

Hypothetically, if it were true that Martin attacked Zimmerman just because Zimmerman was following him, would that change your opinion that Zimmerman "deserves to die"?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Explain to me how following someone, checking in to what they're doing at night in your neighborhood, is either racist or asking for a fight??

And explain to me why it's more likely that GZ attacked TM first, and not the other way around given TM's history?
I'll wait.



You cray, too. LOL

Not sure it really matters considering that if GZ never approached and confronted TM, the event never happens.

Legally, GZ appears to be okay. Morally, GZ took a life and the situation should have been avoided.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Hypothetically, if it were true that Martin attacked Zimmerman just because Zimmerman was following him, would that change your opinion that Zimmerman "deserves to die"?

It would probably make me reconsider the appropriateness of the death penalty if it were proven true that Martin was the aggressor (meaning that Martin went out if his way to get into a physical altercation with Zimmerman and Zimmerman did not approach him at all). I don't believe that to be the case, obviously, so it is hard to say. Even in that hypothetical, the use of deadly force would still be unnecessary and Zimmerman should still go to jail for killing a kid that was just walking home. Admittedly, though, Martin being the aggressor complicates things a bit.

If we are doing hypotheticals, I wonder how much different the legal proceedings and this thread would look if it was a black adult who killed an unarmed white kid who was merely walking home in his own neighborhood.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Not sure it really matters considering that if GZ never approached and confronted TM, the event never happens.

Legally, GZ appears to be okay. Morally, GZ took a life and the situation should have been avoided.

Right -- I think that's the confusion underlying not only the debate on this thread but in the entire country. There's a difference between legal guilt and just being a Major League @sshole. Zimmerman's probably the latter, not so much the former.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

It would probably make me reconsider the appropriateness of the death penalty if it were proven true that Martin was the aggressor (meaning that Martin went out if his way to get into a physical altercation with Zimmerman and Zimmerman did not approach him at all). I don't believe that to be the case, obviously, so it is hard to say. Even in that hypothetical, the use of deadly force would still be unnecessary and Zimmerman should still go to jail for killing a kid that was just walking home. Admittedly, though, Martin being the aggressor complicates things a bit.

If we are doing hypotheticals, I wonder how much different the legal proceedings and this thread would look if it was a black adult who killed an unarmed white kid who was merely walking home in his own neighborhood.

Ok, well, do you think it could ever be justifiable to shoot someone who starts beating you up?

 

[ND NYC]

let me get this straight...from a strictly legal (not moral) perespective...all that an armed person in florida who is in a fight and wants to use his weapon simply needs to do is lose the fight, so they can then shoot to kill their opponent... and this would not be a crime in any way?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Ok, well, do you think it could ever be justifiable to shoot someone who starts beating you up?

I guess. If you are minding your own business and someone attacks you, and your life is legitimately in danger (i.e., the assailant reveals that he is armed with a deadly weapon or declares his intent to kill you). Or if someone intrudes into your home, I believe you should also have carte blanche with respect to violence against the intruder.

If you harass or attack someone who is minding their own business, though, what happens to you is your problem. That is definitely my impression of what happened here. It is only exacerbated by the fact that it was an adult going after a kid, and the adult was armed and the kid wasn't.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I guess. If you are minding your own business and someone attacks you, and your life is legitimately in danger...

Fair enough. But isn't "minding your own business" just another way of saying "doing something lawful"? Since everyones' "business" is different on a daily basis?

Surely Self-Defense isn't limited to only those people sitting on the couch, saying nothing to anyone, and just twittling their thumbs...right?

 

[Golden_Domer]

I guess. If you are minding your own business and someone attacks you, and your life is legitimately in danger (i.e., the assailant reveals that he is armed with a deadly weapon or declares his intent to kill you). Or if someone intrudes into your home, I believe you should also have carte blanche with respect to violence against the intruder.

If you harass or attack someone who is minding their own business, though, what happens to you is your problem. That is definitely my impression of what happened here. It is only exacerbated by the fact that it was an adult going after a kid, and the adult was armed and the kid wasn't.

You mean like TM allegedly did while beating on GZ? Gotcha.

 

[kmoose]

Like I said, I don't think that is all that relevant. If Martin actually was beating the guy (which I am certainly not at all convinced was the case), that is his own damn fault. If anyone had a legit claim to self defense, it was the kid who was approached in the dark by an idiot that wrongly thought he was committing a crime, and who also happened to be armed. Self defense shouldn't mean that it OK to start an altercation with someone for no reason, and then shoot the person when you get your *** kicked.

So, if the kid started/caused the fight, then it is not "all that relevant". But, if George Zimmerman started/caused the fight, then it is perfectly acceptable to use it against him?

 

[ND NYC]

So, if the kid started/caused the fight, then it is not "all that relevant". But, if George Zimmerman started/caused the fight, then it is perfectly acceptable to use it against him?

thats one of the big problems with this case isnt it? We dont know who started "the fight"..do we?

all we know is that GZ was chasing down/looking for TM. GZ said as much in his deposition, and his 911 calls corroborated this.

 

[connor_in]

I guess. If you are minding your own business and someone attacks you, and your life is legitimately in danger (i.e., the assailant reveals that he is armed with a deadly weapon or declares his intent to kill you). Or if someone intrudes into your home, I believe you should also have carte blanche with respect to violence against the intruder.

If you harass or attack someone who is minding their own business, though, what happens to you is your problem. That is definitely my impression of what happened here. It is only exacerbated by the fact that it was an adult going after a kid, and the adult was armed and the kid wasn't.

Depends on your definition of "harass" and "attack" though.

Many ladies (especially but not exclusively) at bars and parties can claim harassment by guys coming over to hit on them (some very aggressively). Does that give the ladies clearance to kick the ever-loving-crap out of them?

I don't mean this to take you on in any kind of fight. I am just trying to show that it is very dificult to define things for a legal sense. This is exactly why we have judges and juries and situational ethics in our legal system.

One other thing...and this is directed at a number of people...TM was a kid yes but a 17 yr old kid. I have not heard any specifics on TM's height and weight, but many of the recruits we wax so poetic about in the recruiting threads are about 17 as well and have pretty good size on them. Myself at 17 probably looked about 13 and skinny as a rail. What I am getting at is that he could have looked the size of a regular person and GZ did not know his age. That mixed with the fact that many of the photos circulating of TM show him at a much younger age bring a connotation of many posts to make it seem like GZ attaking a 6th or 7th grader.

 

[phgreek]

It would probably make me reconsider the appropriateness of the death penalty if it were proven true that Martin was the aggressor (meaning that Martin went out if his way to get into a physical altercation with Zimmerman and Zimmerman did not approach him at all). I don't believe that to be the case, obviously, so it is hard to say. Even in that hypothetical, the use of deadly force would still be unnecessary and Zimmerman should still go to jail for killing a kid that was just walking home. Admittedly, though, Martin being the aggressor complicates things a bit.

... So folks fearing for their property have no right to question those they do not recognize...and pursue those who FVCKING RUN from them...SURE, that makes perfect sense, if you are Skip Bayless and drew the short straw on a topic...

If we are doing hypotheticals, I wonder how much different the legal proceedings and this thread would look if it was a black adult who killed an unarmed white kid who was merely walking home in his own neighborhood.

1) Based on my recollection its a huge stretch to say "his own neighborhood" like he'd been there all his life...
2) The tragic nature of what happened here offers no justification for making this racial. I see no immediate or underlying racial "motive"...although there have been tons of racially motivated "reactions" first by Martin (Crazy-***-cracker) then after the encounter by folks like the President, Congress people, Al Sharpton, et al.
3) I see a lot of people acknowledging that the state's case blows a$$, and also acknowledging there are 1000 legitimate reasons putting Zimmerman on Martin's tale in addition to the more oft forwarded illegitimate ones.

What I don't see is folks acknowledging that Martin's attitudes/conduct might have contributed to a physical confrontation that has him in the ground now...and there is a TON more support for that being reality than any attitude you could ascribe to Zimmerman's actions which caused these two to cross paths.

 

[goldandblue]

One other thing...and this is directed at a number of people...TM was a kid yes but a 17 yr old kid. I have not heard any specifics on TM's height and weight, but many of the recruits we wax so poetic about in the recruiting threads are about 17 as well and have pretty good size on them. Myself at 17 probably looked about 13 and skinny as a rail. What I am getting at is that he could have looked the size of a regular person and GZ did not know his age. That mixed with the fact that many of the photos circulating of TM show him at a much younger age bring a connotation of many posts to make it seem like GZ attaking a 6th or 7th grader.

 

[Rhode Irish]

You mean like TM allegedly did while beating on GZ? Gotcha.

First of all, you're joking right?

Second of all (assuming you aren't joking), was Zimmerman minding his own business? Because that was the qualifier for the part of my post you bolded.

kmoose - maybe I'm not doing a good job of expressing this, but my point is that regardless of who threw the first punch or who approached who, Zimmerman clearly initiated the situation by being suspicious of him and following him around. If the kid was ready to defend himself physically from someone who was following him around in his neighborhood in the dark and got too close, I don't think you could blame him.

 

[IrishLax]

So, if the kid started/caused the fight, then it is not "all that relevant". But, if George Zimmerman started/caused the fight, then it is perfectly acceptable to use it against him?

Not just use it against him. He deserves to DIE.

The possibility that Martin physically attacked him his irrelevant because Zimmerman followed someone in his neighborhood that he thought looked "suspicious" which means it was OBVIOUSLY a hate crime perpetrated by a bigoted "white-hispanic". You know, because it's COMPLETELY unreasonable that someone walking alone in the rain at night in a neighborhood they don't live in would appear suspicious to a home owner. And it also wouldn't appear suspicious if said person wandering through the neighborhood alone in the rain at night took off running the moment he noticed I was watching him. Zimmerman was clearly a racist, and likely a member of a white-hispanic hate group and/or a vigilante set to appear in the major motion picture Kick *** 2.

And in the realm of possibility that Martin attacked Zimmerman, Martin would be totally justified in attacking him first just because Zimmerman was following him... I mean, if someone is following me at night, the first thing I would do is turn around and start a fist fight. That's definitely the best course of action. Even if Martin while kicking Zimmerman's *** decided to go for Zimmerman's gun... which is likely what he will testify to... Zimmerman had no right to draw and fire on a poor innocent KID because it's his fault for carrying a gun and following Martin. I don't care that it was well within his legal right to do both of those things, if Zimmerman didn't want to 'get his' he should've minded his own darn business. He had no right to fire on him and should've just let Martin continue to beat his *** and/or kill him. But he didn't. He shot Martin. Which makes him a big racist kid-targeting homicidal vigilante profiler deserving of death.

(Am I doing it right?)

 

[Golden_Domer]

First of all, you're joking right?

Second of all (assuming you aren't joking), was Zimmerman minding his own business? Because that was the qualifier for the part of my post you bolded.

kmoose - maybe I'm not doing a good job of expressing this, but my point is that regardless of who threw the first punch or who approached who, Zimmerman clearly initiated the situation by being suspicious of him and following him around. If the kid was ready to defend himself physically from someone who was following him around in his neighborhood in the dark and got too close, I don't think you could blame him.

I'm not joking. That's what TM allegedly said. You can't dismiss that issue, because it may have happened. Also, I didn't know "minding your own" business gave you carte blanche to beat someone's a$$ if you thought someone's following you. And why would someone need to defend oneself w/ a physical confrontation just b/c they were being followed? That doesn't make sense.

 

[kmoose]

kmoose - maybe I'm not doing a good job of expressing this, but my point is that regardless of who threw the first punch or who approached who, Zimmerman clearly initiated the situation by being suspicious of him and following him around. If the kid was ready to defend himself physically from someone who was following him around in his neighborhood in the dark and got too close, I don't think you could blame him.

He wasn't walking around in his own neighborhood. He was visiting the neighborhood of his girlfriend's dad? It was a gated community, and Martin's family was not domiciled inside those gates. So let's drop the whole "his own neighborhood" charade.

So, according to you, you are not convinced that Martin initiated the physical confrontation, but you ARE convinced that Zimmerman following Martin was a sign of aggression? What if Zimmerman was following well back of the kid, and the kid copped an attitude, stopped, turned around, worked his way back to where Zimmerman was, and confronted him? Is it really that hard to see that scenario as even a mere possibility?

 

[Golden_Domer]

One other thing...and this is directed at a number of people...TM was a kid yes but a 17 yr old kid. I have not heard any specifics on TM's height and weight, but many of the recruits we wax so poetic about in the recruiting threads are about 17 as well and have pretty good size on them. Myself at 17 probably looked about 13 and skinny as a rail. What I am getting at is that he could have looked the size of a regular person and GZ did not know his age. That mixed with the fact that many of the photos circulating of TM show him at a much younger age bring a connotation of many posts to make it seem like GZ attaking a 6th or 7th grader.

If I recall correctly, GZ was 5'9" 170lbs at the time and TM was 6'1" 150lbs.

I'll tell you this much, TM does not look like a little boy in this video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/oqLOeuBwJOI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[IrishLax]

I guess. If you are minding your own business and someone attacks you, and your life is legitimately in danger (i.e., the assailant reveals that he is armed with a deadly weapon or declares his intent to kill you). Or if someone intrudes into your home, I believe you should also have carte blanche with respect to violence against the intruder.

If you harass or attack someone who is minding their own business, though, what happens to you is your problem. That is definitely my impression of what happened here. It is only exacerbated by the fact that it was an adult going after a kid, and the adult was armed and the kid wasn't.

Let the record show that Rhode Irish believes if you are not "minding your own business" than you deserve whatever kind of physical violence someone decides to dole out.

So think about that next time you decide to talk too loud in the library, heckle a Michigan fan, peep in a neighbors window, follow someone in your neighborhood who doesn't belong there to see what they're up to, etc. They have full right to whip your butt and if you don't like it than mind your own business next time Nosey Nancy.

Oh wait, that's not how the law works in the United States? You don't say...

 

[IrishLax]

If I recall correctly, GZ was 5'9" 170lbs at the time and TM was 6'1" 150lbs.

I'll tell you this much, TM does not look like a little boy in this video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/oqLOeuBwJOI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Martin was 5'11" tall and Zimmerman was 5'7". Martin was also "man" enough to own a gun of his own (illegally of course because he just a "KID" after all...), take drugs, etc.

But you know that's all irrelevant. Zimmerman was clearly an overpowering adult whose predatory instincts pushed him towards targeting a helpless kid.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Let the record show that Rhode Irish believes if you are not "minding your own business" than you deserve whatever kind of physical violence someone decides to dole out.

So think about that next time you decide to talk too loud in the library, heckle a Michigan fan, peep in a neighbors window, follow someone in your neighborhood who doesn't belong there to see what they're up to, etc. They have full right to whip your butt and if you don't like it than mind your own business next time Nosey Nancy.

Oh wait, that's not how the law works in the United States? You don't say...

Not to mention the thousands of battered women each year who defend themselves while being beaten up. A lot of the time their beatings happened specifically because they weren't "minding their own business" and decided to verbally confont their husbands.

To say that these women "deserve to die" if they happen to kill their attacker is just...mindblowing.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...But you know that's all irrelevant. Zimmerman was clearly an overpowering adult whose predatory instincts pushed him towards targeting a helpless kid.

In one of the funnier moments yesterday, Zimmerman's trainer gave him a "0.5 out of 10" for his MMA skills.

 

[Ndaccountant]

He wasn't walking around in his own neighborhood. He was visiting the neighborhood of his girlfriend's dad? It was a gated community, and Martin's family was not domiciled inside those gates. So let's drop the whole "his own neighborhood" charade.

So, according to you, you are not convinced that Martin initiated the physical confrontation, but you ARE convinced that Zimmerman following Martin was a sign of aggression? What if Zimmerman was following well back of the kid, and the kid copped an attitude, stopped, turned around, worked his way back to where Zimmerman was, and confronted him? Is it really that hard to see that scenario as even a mere possibility?

Not sure it is a sign of aggression, but what happens if GZ follows the advice of the dispatcher and not follow the kid? Why wasn't calling the police enough? IMO, the situation was totally avoidable if GZ simply called the police and let them do their job. By following him, GZ opened the door for anything to happen.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Not sure it is a sign of aggression, but what happens if GZ follows the advice of the dispatcher and not follow the kid? Why wasn't calling the police enough? IMO, the situation was totally avoidable if GZ simply called the police and let them do their job. By following him, GZ opened the door for anything to happen.

This is a total red herring. Every scenario where somebody beats you up is "totally avoidable". All you had to do was refrain from whatever it was that made them beat you up.

Maybe you shouldn't have cut-off that crazy guy in traffic. Maybe you shouldn't have talked-back to your husband. Maybe you shouldn't have taunted that sports fan. Maybe you shouldn't have hit on that guy's wife.

What happens if these events don't occur? Nothing. But that doesn't mean a victim in these scenarios can't defend themselves.

 

[ND NYC]

Not to mention the thousands of battered women each year who defend themselves while being beaten up. A lot of the time their beatings happened specifically because they weren't "minding their own business" and decided to verbally confont their husbands.

To say that these women "deserve to die" if they happen to kill their attacker is just...mindblowing.

comparing GZ to a battered woman?


little bit of a stretch dontcha think?

 

[kmoose]

Not sure it is a sign of aggression, but what happens if GZ follows the advice of the dispatcher and not follow the kid? Why wasn't calling the police enough? IMO, the situation was totally avoidable if GZ simply called the police and let them do their job. By following him, GZ opened the door for anything to happen.

By f*cking Trayvon's mother without birth control, Trayvon's dad opened the door for anything to happen. Since we're dealing in "what ifs" here........... what if Zimmerman goes home, the cops show up a few hours later (because they have been too busy busting drug dealers and pimps, and eating donuts, to respond to a suspicious character call in a "richy rich" gated community), do a drive around of the neighborhood, see nothing, and then move along? An hour later, a woman is raped in a home invasion........... And Zimmerman is left thinking, "If I had just kept an eye on where that kid was, maybe that lady would not have been raped."? As far as Zimmerman knew, Martin had twice tried to disappear from public view(hide). So why WOULD he just go home and forget about it? At one point, his girlfriend testified that Trayvon was outside of the home of his dad's girlfriend, and she told him just to go in. But Trayvon told her that he was not going to do that. If he had just gone inside, then he would not have opened the door for any of this to happen.

 

[GoIrish41]

Virtually every person on this thread who is defending Zimmerman was against any type of gun control on the thread of . Those who defend Martin, were for gun control measures. I don't think this is a coincidence. It's almost like the arguments aren't really about this specific case but a larger social issue. I suspect that if a gun was not involved in this crime that there would be a lot of people switching sides. No matter who attacked who, who provoked the situation, who was on top during the fight, who had drugs in their system, I think most people drew their line based on their thoughts on the gun control issue. Also the timing of this incident made this a HUGE case in the media. Just an observation.