George Zimmerman Trial

[IrishLax]

I think all of the hyperbole about "what would you do if someone was chasing you" is silly. None of us know yet for sure how the interaction occurred, what was said, etc. How does anyone really know if it was reasonable for TM to defend himself?

Once (if) we know more about exactly the moment of the altercation occurred, then we will know what was reasonable.

All of the "it was reasonable" or "it wasn't reasonable" talk is based entirely on opinion right now.

I'm sure it wont stop pat from telling you how stupid you are for it though.

This is a good point. It really is a fruitless discussion because no one can know how it all went down. Did Zimmerman approach him gun drawn, safety off, with one in the chamber saying "IMA KILLZ U!"? Did Zimmerman approach him with a smile and a handshake? Probably somewhere between those extremes... but we'll never know. No witnesses of that (as far as I'm aware) and we'll only get (maybe) Zimmerman's side of the story.

I think people care so much though because it matters an incredible amount to the end game. The difference between him approaching with a hand on his gun (or even just an open view firearm) and him approaching nonchalantly is gigantic in the framing of the situation... and in the end, justification of "self-defense".

 

[IrishLax]

Three witnesses saw GZ on top of TM, including the guy that took the pictures. They all testified last week.

About the charges. There are guidelines as to what a prosecutor has to charge a perpetrator with. I don't understand them, in Florida especially. But I understand the local prosecutor didn't file charges because of the ambiguity as to whether the evidence would have convicted him of second degree murder. Remember the local prosecutor was forced to file charges by the Atty General of Fla.

That's simply not true... because I watched the entire testimony of the guy who took pictures. He said very clearly that he NEVER looked outside and told his wife to get away from the window. He went out after the gunshots; and could not say who was on top because he saw 0% of the fight.

So I don't know where you're getting your information from, but that's patently false.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

WHOA NOW!

I wasn't trying to be rude. Just pointing out that the 46 calls to police is a crap argument. It's not a reflection of you as a person. The argument just flat out sucks. In fact, you aren't the only one that has brought this up. So It wasn't really soley directed at you(maybe I should've pointed that out, my bad). I said nothing rude about you....

Dude, the prosecution is going to pivot into the forensics shortly, paint GZ as the liar of the century, and call as many witness as it takes to make GZ look like a rabid dog, chomping at the bit to put one in one of those "effin' punks!" Just wait. First they will discredit his story. Then they will rip him up. The info is out there. The judge, prosecutors, and defense attorneys have already argued about the "cop wannabe" lable. It is in.

 

[FLDomer]

Three witnesses saw GZ on top of TM, including the guy that took the pictures. They all testified last week.

About the charges. There are guidelines as to what a prosecutor has to charge a perpetrator with. I don't understand them, in Florida especially. But I understand the local prosecutor didn't file charges because of the ambiguity as to whether the evidence would have convicted him of second degree murder. Remember the local prosecutor was forced to file charges by the Atty General of Fla.

From what I have seen on the local news or read in the local papers, is that those testimonies were after the shot was fired and even GZ admitted to getting on top of TM after the shot. One of the testimonies was shaken by the fact that the witness also claimed that they heard 3 shots when only one was fired. The officer the handcuffed GZ on the scene testified the back of GZs pants were wet and back of his jacket was wet and covered with grass, seemingly giving truth to GZs and witness Goods account that GZ was on the bottom.

 

[connect the dots]

If he is acquitted, I pray to God there are no riots. I lived through the Rodney King riots in LA during law school, and dont want to see tha stuff again. That was frightening, sad, and horrible to see happening all around me. Dont want to see anyone else have to deal with something like that again,

Never been to Vietnam O'Hara? How frighteningly sad, and now, scratch your scrotum and go to bed!

 

[jmurphy75]

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post here for a second and just focus on the part I bolded above.

I made the effort to purposely put "if" in bold, underline, and italics in my post to emphasize that I am NOT assuming that and simply responding in hypothetical to your post that assumes Zimmerman is the aggressor.

The fact that you missed that just shows how little effort your putting forth here to have an honest discussion. You clearly have your mind made up on a certain version of events and don't care to consider any other angles even for discussion purposes.

Well said.

 

[nico7980]

ME. ME.. PICK ME.

I have a question.. How does a guy who's live in the same neighborhood for the last three yrs. Takes his dog on daily walks in said neighborhood. Is the lead guy for the neighborhood watch.. NOT KNOW 3 STREETS.. How does he get to work everyday? He's probably been driving that for yrs. He knows where to turn, how long it'll take, and probably some shortcuts.. So how do you not know three streets in your neighborhood? He told the cops that he has a bad memory.. That's his answer..

Another thing.. Why is a black kid walking in a neighborhood a "Suspect"? According to Zimmerman, TM was.. Why? Can someone tell me please.. Why a kid walking through a neighborhood is considered a suspect? What did he do to be considered a suspect? Other than fitting a certain profile..

GZ said that TM jumped out from some bushes.. Thing is according to testimony.. There were no bushes to jump out from..

GZ said that he was afraid of TM.. If you're so afraid of someone.. Why the hell do you continue to follow someone that scares you..

GZ said that after he shot TM.. TM sat up and said "You got me." But from reports.. TM was shot through the heart.. Killing TM instantantly..

GZ said after shooting TM.. He got on his back and spread TM's arms out.. But when the cops show up.. TM's body was found in a different position..

Help me understand this..

 

[Wild Bill]

ME. ME.. PICK ME.

I have a question.. How does a guy who's live in the same neighborhood for the last three yrs. Takes his dog on daily walks in said neighborhood. Is the lead guy for the neighborhood watch.. NOT KNOW 3 STREETS.. How does he get to work everyday? He's probably been driving that for yrs. He knows where to turn, how long it'll take, and probably some shortcuts.. So how do you not know three streets in your neighborhood? He told the cops that he has a bad memory.. That's his answer..

Another thing.. Why is a black kid walking in a neighborhood a "Suspect"? According to Zimmerman, TM was.. Why? Can someone tell me please.. Why a kid walking through a neighborhood is considered a suspect? What did he do to be considered a suspect? Other than fitting a certain profile..

GZ said that TM jumped out from some bushes.. Thing is according to testimony.. There were no bushes to jump out from..

GZ said that he was afraid of TM.. If you're so afraid of someone.. Why the hell do you continue to follow someone that scares you..

GZ said that after he shot TM.. TM sat up and said "You got me." But from reports.. TM was shot through the heart.. Killing TM instantantly..

GZ said after shooting TM.. He got on his back and spread TM's arms out.. But when the cops show up.. TM's body was found in a different position..

Help me understand this..

There was a string of crimes committed the year prior to the incident. Allegedly, the crimes were all committed by young, black men. TM simply matched the description.

Zimmerman told the dispatch "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about" and "looking at all the houses".

None of this is substantiated. TM did have some THZ in his system but nothing, other than the fact that he walked to the convenience store for skittles and iced tea during a rain storm, suggests he was high the night of the incident.

Assuming all of this is true, I would have followed him too. I don't want to be the victim of a burglary or a violent crime and I don't want my neighbors to experience it either. Frankly, I would profile without hesitation. My safety is a far greater concern than potentially offending someone for profiling. Anyone that tells you different, is a f'ing liar.

 

[woolybug25]

There was a string of crimes committed the year prior to the incident. Allegedly, the crimes were all committed by young, black men. TM simply matched the description.

Zimmerman told the dispatch "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about" and "looking at all the houses".

None of this is substantiated. TM did have some THZ in his system but nothing, other than the fact that he walked to the convenience store for skittles and iced tea during a rain storm, suggests he was high the night of the incident.

Assuming all of this is true, I would have followed him too. I don't want to be the victim of a burglary or a violent crime and I don't want my neighbors to experience it either. Frankly, I would profile without hesitation. My safety is a far greater concern than potentially offending someone for profiling. Anyone that tells you different, is a f'ing liar.

Or one could simply look at the 46 calls to 911 he made in the 8 years prior to the event and see that he usually made a call when a young, black male was walking around.

 

[Woneone]

Or one could simply look at the 46 calls to 911 he made in the 8 years prior to the event and see that he usually made a call when a young, black male was walking around.

I haven't been following the case, so forgive my ignorance, but what is the African American population like in Zimmerman's neighborhood?

 

[Booslum31]

Never witnessed something so divisive. Smart people on both sides hearing what they want to hear and believing completely differently stories. Have you ever been reading a post and thinking "man, this guy is nailing it" and then he goes on to take a liberty with the truth or stretches it? Or possibly just misses on an assumption or leaps to a conclusion? Then you are thinking, "geez, you just lost me and I was SOOOO agreeing with you". Like in the post above...I was agreeing with him until he said that the neighborhood was being burglarized by black youths. I heard on the news that they had no clue who was doing the dirty deeds. My brother always quips, "don't let the facts ruin a good story". Here I'd say, don't let the facts ruin a good rant.

 

[connor_in]

IMHO we don't know what went down for sure and we never will. I have heard many times that eyewitness testimony is never the basis of a strong case unless there are a lot of witnesses. I doubt the forensics are that strong either. There is a reason the local DA did not bring charges at first until seemingly forced to from above. He probably felt the case wasn't strong enough to win a conviction.

I do not know if GZ is guilty of murderer or not. He did kill TM is all we can be completely sure of. Self defense or murder God will ultimately decide.

 

[NDWorld247]

I've been reading this thread on and off for the past week or so. I've always leaned towards Zimmerman acted in self-defense and reading the following earlier tonight only further cemented that for me. This is from today's testimony. Greg Serino was the lead investigator on the case. Sorry if this has already been posted/discussed.

At one point during his interview with Zimmerman, Serino bluffed that he may have video of the incident shot on Martin’s cellphone.

"I believe [Zimmerman’s] words were, 'Thank God, I was hoping somebody would videotape it,'" said Serino. "Either he was telling the truth or he was a complete pathological liar. One of the two."

Serino says nothing indicated to him that Zimmerman was a liar.

"You think he was telling the truth?" asked O'Mara.

"Yes," said Serino.

 

[Wild Bill]

Or one could simply look at the 46 calls to 911 he made in the 8 years prior to the event and see that he usually made a call when a young, black male was walking around.

Yes, you could. I was simply answering the "why was he profiled" question. As I said in the prior post, assuming the facts I stated were true, I would have followed TM too.

Maybe GZ is a racist and an anti-dentite, I don't know.

 

[GoIrish41]

There was a string of crimes committed the year prior to the incident. Allegedly, the crimes were all committed by young, black men. TM simply matched the description.

I thought the breakins were unsolved and that was why z was frustrated that those punks always get away. Where did you hear they were all black?

 

[Wild Bill]

I thought the breakins were unsolved and that was why z was frustrated that those punks always get away. Where did you hear they were all black?

Cable news station. Can't recall which one. No clue if it is true.

 

[FLDomer]

I thought the breakins were unsolved and that was why z was frustrated that those punks always get away. Where did you hear they were all black?

One of the break-in was solved and a couple weeks after the break in. Here is a link I found and though seems to be written in pro GZ but with excepts from police reports and link to the mug shot of alleged thief of one of the break ins.

George Zimmerman's Life and the Neighborhood Burglaries - TalkLeft: The Politics Of Crime

 

[Bogtrotter07]

From what I have seen on the local news or read in the local papers, is that those testimonies were after the shot was fired and even GZ admitted to getting on top of TM after the shot. One of the testimonies was shaken by the fact that the witness also claimed that they heard 3 shots when only one was fired. The officer the handcuffed GZ on the scene testified the back of GZs pants were wet and back of his jacket was wet and covered with grass, seemingly giving truth to GZs and witness Goods account that GZ was on the bottom.

Go back and re-read. Most cannot establish when the shots were fired, or were not watching then. That conclusion is your supposition or somebody elses, who you got your information from.

GZ and Goode's account may be buried by forensics. The way TZ was laying, the angle of the bullet wound and what was struck, all may preclude things having happened that have been accepted by fact by most viewers.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

That's simply not true... because I watched the entire testimony of the guy who took pictures. He said very clearly that he NEVER looked outside and told his wife to get away from the window. He went out after the gunshots; and could not say who was on top because he saw 0% of the fight.

So I don't know where you're getting your information from, but that's patently false.

Selma Mora, now a Miami resident, who testified Thursday that she thought she saw Zimmerman on top during the scuffle.

Read more here: SANFORD: Witness who saw “tussle” testifies in Zimmerman trial as social media explodes over photo of defense lawyer - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

Name:

Mary Cutcher is the roommate of Witness #16 Selma Lamilla.

Witness Summary:

This witness is Mary Cutcher, who was home with her roommate (Witness #16 Selma Lamilla) the night of the incident. She believes that whomever she saw out there intended to kill the Trayvon Martin. She was about to take an online test and went to make coffee in the kitchen, when she heard sounds like sopmeone in trouble or hurting. She and Selma slowly walked toward the glass door, and saw “the kid” laying on the ground.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/08Rf4G0JOOk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Selene Bahadoor

Witness Summary:

She says she was in the kitchen cooking, door closed and window half open. She heard a noise that sounded like a kid making a weird noise. She looked out and couldn’t see anything. She went to the door and saw figures and arms and couldn’t make out anything more. She saw her neighbor come out at the same time, who she says told the figures that he was going to call 911. She went back to turn the stove off, and she heard the shot go off. She said she went upstairs and told her sister that she thought someone out there was shot. She also mentions her niece who was in the home and didn’t see anything. She said they saw police a while later. She mentions that she was asked if she knew George, and she says she talked to him a couple of times. That interviewer at that time (not the one on tape) asked her if she thought Zimmerman would have done this, and she said “no.” She says he was always fine with her.

I am sorry. My statement was poor. I do not believe Zimmerman's story. Not saying that there wasn't an instant when either GZ or TM wasn't on top of the other. But the whole idea of a life and death struggle with GZ on the ground getting pounded by a much slighter TM is bull shiit. There are many witnesses whose testimony about what they saw conflicts with GZ's story of TZ being on top.

There are more that I didn't quote. And State of Florida legal officials state that if GZ was told by the 9-1-1 operator to not follow, the legal self-defense argument is out the window. I guess it is kind of like in Ohio in the winter, if you slip on the icy sidewalk you cannot sue the property owner because you should have expectations that footing would be treacherous in the winter. In Florida, if you chase a man and 9-1-1 tells you to stop, you should expect to be attacked, therefore you are the aggressor and cannot use a self defense argument. Makes sense.

 

[FLDomer]

Go back and re-read. Most cannot establish when the shots were fired, or were not watching then. That conclusion is your supposition or somebody elses, who you got your information from.

GZ and Goode's account may be buried by forensics. The way TZ was laying, the angle of the bullet wound and what was struck, all may preclude things having happened that have been accepted by fact by most viewers.

Also the witness, Mr Good, based on his testimony. Lets be honest here too, many of your post here have also been your own suppositions too, and some have been point out as not factual at all.

To the second part. It maybe, but until the reports and forensic come out we will not know for sure. Until then...

 

[irishpat183]

Just jumping in so forgive me if I've already missed this point being touched, but what exactly made TM suspicious on that tragic night? Was it the fact that TM was an unknown (to GZ) black kid walking inside of a gated community that had a string of robberies or was it his attire? Hate to make this a race issue, but I don't see how TM being black didn't have at least a little bit to do with his "suspicion" that night. Already there he has profiled TM. Now, did GZ know that 100% of the recent rash of crimes were committed by black teenagers? I'm going to go with no. Let me get one thing straight, as paranoid as he was, GZ calling the cops a million times, while over zealous isn't a crime. What makes very little sense is as a Neighborhood watchman, his job isn't to confront and follow...He simply makes the call and let's the law get to it when they decide to. Him carrying a loaded gun, though he has the right to, was reckless given that it wasn't as if he was protecting his own home with it and was compounded in his decision to follow and ultimately confront TM. Now, the question is whether GZ or TM threw the first punch? If GZ threw it, then the charge as is may stick. Self-defense isn't hitting someone and then getting your a** kicked to the point where you feel you need to shoot someone...Honestly, Manslaughter makes much more sense than Murder in this unfortunate ordeal.

GZ didn't konw that TM was black. Listen to the 911 call. He couldn't tell at first. Therefore, he didn't follow TM simply because he was black.

There was a huge deal because MSNBC edited the tape to make it sound like GZ said "he's black". Again, the editior was fired and GZ actually said...AFTER the operator asked "Is the person black, white, or hispanic" GZ answered "I THINK he's black".

Only later in the call did he confirm TM was a black male. So from the begining, GZ maybe thought it was one of the little punks that got away from earlier crimes?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Also the witness, Mr Good, based on his testimony. Lets be honest here too, many of your post here have also been your own suppositions too, and some have been point out as not factual at all.

To the second part. It maybe, but until the reports and forensic come out we will not know for sure. Until then...

I misspelled Good's name as Goode. So that is only one person; the one I was talking about and the one you were.

I am telling you they are keeping the forensics close to the chest, but the forensics defy Zimmerman's explanations.

They are going to paint Zimmerman like the compulsive liar from Saturday Night Live.

<iframe width="512" height="288" src="http://www.hulu.com/embed.html?eid=5gnfwaspvk4_xekn1mnvqa&partner=dailymotion&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.dailymotion.com%2fvideo%2fxkqe4x_saturday-night-live-jon-lovitz-as-tommy-flanagan_fun" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I haven't been following the case, so forgive my ignorance, but what is the African American population like in Zimmerman's neighborhood?

Half the eye witnesses were other than Caucasian. I would imagine that this is indicative of the neighborhood, ie., that it was a racially mixed neighborhood.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

GZ didn't konw that TM was black. Listen to the 911 call. He couldn't tell at first. Therefore, he didn't follow TM simply because he was black.

There was a huge deal because MSNBC edited the tape to make it sound like GZ said "he's black". Again, the editior was fired and GZ actually said...AFTER the operator asked "Is the person black, white, or hispanic" GZ answered "I THINK he's black".

Only later in the call did he confirm TM was a black male. So from the begining, GZ maybe thought it was one of the little punks that got away from earlier crimes?

Irish Pat, I do not mean to insult you, but you are arguing all the points that are unimportant in this case. They are going to show GZ's story as a complete (and demonstrably so) lie. It is about to start.

The fact of the matter is, everything that serves so far to make GZ look good, is going to make him look like Jon Lovitz before the trial is done. The best criminal attorney I know just told me that the defense has said way too much! A) When they talk too much it comes back to bite them in the @ss; B) Them talking too much signals to him that they know they have real problems, and they are trying to baffle the jury with their bull shiit!

 

[GoIrish41]

AFTER the operator asked "Is the person black, white, or hispanic" GZ answered "I THINK he's black".

Actually he said "he looks black" which is a little different than "i think he is black."

 

[connor_in]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/08Rf4G0JOOk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



I am sorry. My statement was poor. I do not believe Zimmerman's story. Not saying that there wasn't an instant when either GZ or TM wasn't on top of the other. But the whole idea of a life and death struggle with GZ on the ground getting pounded by a much slighter TM is bull shiit. There are many witnesses whose testimony about what they saw conflicts with GZ's story of TZ being on top.

There are more that I didn't quote. And State of Florida legal officials state that if GZ was told by the 9-1-1 operator to not follow, the legal self-defense argument is out the window. I guess it is kind of like in Ohio in the winter, if you slip on the icy sidewalk you cannot sue the property owner because you should have expectations that footing would be treacherous in the winter. In Florida, if you chase a man and 9-1-1 tells you to stop, you should expect to be attacked, therefore you are the aggressor and cannot use a self defense argument. Makes sense.

First, read my post from last night...I have no idea if this was murder or self defense and figure we will never know what exactly happened in total.

That being said, in playing devil's advocate to Bog's post and the testimonies therein, the people who testified all said they looked out either after they heard noises. By the time they looked, either person could have gone back and forth of being on top. Plus the noises themselves (a weird noise, a kid in pain, etc) the sounds of a hurt human no matter the age is anywhere from mewling/whimpering to screaming and it is hard to determine the age of the person making the noise just from the noise itself. It could be the sound of TM in pain from a GZ attack, or it could be the sound of GZ in pain from a TM attack.

We will see what comes out of the forensics when introduced, but being as how the defense should know exactly what the forensic evidence is due to discovery and that it is known the DA didn't want to try the case in the first place until there was pressure brought, I find it hard to believe the forensics will make this a slam dunk. Don't get me wrong, if he is guilty of out and out murder, I hope he does get punished, I just not as sure as Bogs that it will come in this trial.

 

[irishpat183]

Irish Pat, I do not mean to insult you, but you are arguing all the points that are unimportant in this case. They are going to show GZ's story as a complete (and demonstrably so) lie. It is about to start.

The fact of the matter is, everything that serves so far to make GZ look good, is going to make him look like Jon Lovitz before the trial is done. The best criminal attorney I know just told me that the defense has said way too much! A) When they talk too much it comes back to bite them in the @ss; B) Them talking too much signals to him that they know they have real problems, and they are trying to baffle the jury with their bull shiit!

Don't worry, I have thick skin, buddy!

And what case are you watching? The detective on the stand just said GZ's story has been SOLID from the begining. If he's told the same story over and over, and you have an eyewitness that said they saw TM on top of GZ....I don't know what else you need to hear.


I rest my case. LOL

 

[GoIrish41]

Don't worry, I have thick skin, buddy!

And what case are you watching? The detective on the stand just said GZ's story has been SOLID from the begining. If he's told the same story over and over, and you have an eyewitness that said they saw TM on top of GZ....I don't know what else you need to hear.


I rest my case. LOL

You mean his best friend? Lol

 

[irishpat183]

You mean his best friend? Lol

While we're on that....throw out TM's girlfriends as well.

 

[EddytoNow]

Like everyone else on here, I don't know what really happened. But the prosecution is sure doing a nice job of presenting the defense's case. If Bog's is right, the prosecution better have something really convincing because I haven't seen or heard anything yet that convinces me that Zimmerman was doing anything but defending himself. If he is guilty of anything it is being over-zealous.

I suspect the defense will present evidence at some point of previous criminal activity in that loction to justify Zimmerman's neighborhood watch activities. If that evidence exists and is presented in court, it is hard to argue that Zimmerman was targeting anyone in particular.